Happenings of December 26

[otg]

OTG - You have a very well thought out, and very well stated, theory here. I know you are completely BDI, and if I was also BDI, I would think this is exactly what happened. I believe a very similar scenario happened, but with a different killer. Why is it you only see BR being the killer? Why couldn't it just have easily been JR? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just interested in why you discount him.

That's a very good point, Nom. I guess if I take out the conclusions I've drawn because of the things we know about peripherally (mostly the actions afterwards and the behavior of everyone involved in this), I still have the sequence of events that the physical evidence tells me is how it happened. But I've concluded from the nature of what this tells me that it looks more like the actions of a juvenile (tying her neck to another object without regard for the danger, molestation with an inanimate object, the risk of discovery while doing anything of this nature in the house). But if I place either of the parents in the role of doing these things, it doesn't seem very likely. (And I didn't take your questions as snarky in the first place, Nom.)

 

[otg]

otg,
Smothering by hand is not the only mechanism that can result in asphyxiation.

If the forensic evidence rules out any form of antemortem asphyxiation then I reckon we will have to consider if JonBenet was posed in some manner, so to facilitate a sexual assault, but resulting in her whacking her head on something?

To me the head blow looks as if it was meant to kill, just like the paintbrush ligature, but the head blow failed.

.

I'm not trying to parse words, UKG, but a distinction is needed. You brought up the possibility of smothering (I think) to account for the blood on her pillow. There's no other reason to suspect it that I know of. Yes, smothering with the hand would lead to the same injuries. In fact, that one picture I linked was from someone who had been smothered by a hand.

Asphyxiation is what occurs when the body is deprived of oxygen -- whether that happens as a result of smothering, chest compression, strangulation, choking, drowning, or even certain chemical reactions (e.g., nitrogen, argon, carbon monoxide). It can be from lack of oxygen to the lungs, or it can be because the blood carrying oxygen is blocked. JonBenet was asphyxiated -- by the ligature that stopped blood flow to her brain.

There is no sign that any type of smothering ever occurred. As it is, we know that JonBenet was already bruised, scratched, abraded, poked, bludgeoned, raped, and strangled. Why throw in something else that never happened?

 

[UKGuy]

It looks that way to me as well. If it was "accidental" it was still delivered with tremendous force, and so must have been done in a fit of rage.

It's very hard, for me, to see it as a response to a scream. If she screamed and the killer were already "playing with her", and hand over the mouth would be considerably quicker.

Chrishope,
I completely agree. Its the RDI theoretical assumption that there was a scream so she was whacked on the head that I consider tenuous.

Does this mean JonBenet's assailant was already holding some blunt force weapon in their hand, and that JonBenet's head was in simple reach?

If the head blow was not a deliberate staging attempt then surely her head injury must result from the manner in which she was positioned as she was being sexually assaulted?

.

 

[otg]

(snip, snip)

It's possible, but I'm doubtful. A slip knot which doesn't release easily usually doesn't tighten easily either. Her weight might have tightened the "noose" but I doubt the knot at the back of her neck would be tight against her neck -well, more than tight, tight enough to continue the furrowing. I'd suspect an injury that happened as you describe would not have a complete furrow. I'd expect some "relief" at the back of the neck. There are a lot of variables having to do with the slipperiness of the rope and the ease with which the "noose" could be tightened. All in all it looks to me much more like an injury caused by holding the body down with one hand (pretty much at or near the knot) and pulling the end (very possibly w/o the brush handle attached at that point) to tighten. I suppose we will never really know.

A "slip knot" is not any particular knot. Many knots are considered slip knots. A slip knot is simply a knot that binds one end of a rope, cord, string (whatever) to itself. Whether it slips freely or not depends on the exact knot and how tightly it is tied to itself (the "standing" part).

The furrow was formed after the ligature remained in the same place for an extended period of time, after there was no longer any pulling on the free end of the cord.

ETA: But you are correct that the tightening of the cord at the location furrow formed could just as easily have come from the method you describe (without the paintbrush attached).

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not trying to parse words, UKG, but a distinction is needed. You brought up the possibility of smothering (I think) to account for the blood on her pillow. There's no other reason to suspect it that I know of. Yes, smothering with the hand would lead to the same injuries. In fact, that one picture I linked was from someone who had been smothered by a hand.

Asphyxiation is what occurs when the body is deprived of oxygen -- whether that happens as a result of smothering, chest compression, strangulation, choking, drowning, or even certain chemical reactions (e.g., nitrogen, argon, carbon monoxide). It can be from lack of oxygen to the lungs, or it can be because the blood carrying oxygen is blocked. JonBenet was asphyxiated -- by the ligature that stopped blood flow to her brain.

There is no sign that any type of smothering ever occurred. As it is, we know that JonBenet was already bruised, scratched, abraded, poked, bludgeoned, raped, and strangled. Why throw in something else that never happened?

otg,
Did I ? Maybe I was smoking some foreign tobacco before that post.

I am familiar with asphyxiation and its variants. Coroner Meyer concluded that JonBenet died due to her being asphyxiated and her head blow, both contributing towards an oxygen defecit.

The feature that I am currently exploring is the head blow, since if it was the ligature *advertiser censored* paintbrush that shut off the oxygen and caused her death why bother mentioning the head blow in the AR?

On the bloodstained pillow, I do not know where it originated, but I might suggest her nose after she was whacked on the head?


.

 

[questfortrue]

questfortrue,
Thanks for the quote. Which confirms the cellulose as originating from the paintbrush.

So what do you think Kolar is saying, i.e. there was a sexual assault with a finger and a further assault with the paintbrush.

Or is he just saying that there was one acute assault using the paintbrush handle?


.

No, Kolar did not specify whether there was an additional assault. All that was said was that in addition to the paintbrush assault, the experts mentioned in the book (about 5 or 6 of them as I recall) felt there was chronic abuse. But since the chronic abuse could not be tied to when and how many times, they could not put any details around it. Given that Kolar is obviously pointing at a rage attack on the part of BR, it would seem like he would not exclude an additional assault. So, IDK.

But he also mentions other experts concluding something else. There were additional medical experts besides Dr. Lucy Rorke who weighed in on the timing between the head bash and the strangulation and agreed that there was some period of time prior to her death by strangulation. I know this has been notated before, but they also agreed that the timing of the ingestion of the pineapple could have coincided with the time frame of the head injury. They estimated that it would have taken between 2-5 hours for the pineapple to move through her system. (Kolar pg. 64 and 65)

 

[UKGuy]

No, Kolar did not specify whether there was an additional assault. All that was said was that in addition to the paintbrush assault, the experts mentioned in the book (about 5 or 6 of them as I recall) felt there was chronic abuse. But since the chronic abuse could not be tied to when and how many times, they could not put any details around it. Given that Kolar is obviously pointing at a rage attack on the part of BR, it would seem like he would not exclude an additional assault. So, IDK.

But he also mentions other experts concluding something else. There were additional medical experts besides Dr. Lucy Rorke who weighed in on the timing between the head bash and the strangulation and agreed that there was some period of time prior to her death by strangulation. I know this has been notated before, but they also agreed that the timing of the ingestion of the pineapple could have coincided with the time frame of the head injury. They estimated that it would have taken between 2-5 hours for the pineapple to move through her system. (Kolar pg. 64 and 65)

questfortrue.

it would seem like he would not exclude an additional assault. So, IDK.

Seems like Kolar is suggesting that there was a second assault, since Coroner Meyer opined that there was Digital Penetration which is distinct from the use of an object considered to be the paintbrush handle.

the timing of the ingestion of the pineapple could have coincided with the time frame of the head injury.

That is interesting because it might separate the initial assault from the head blow. It would also make Kolar's theory much clearer. Since he thinks it began in the breakfast bar.

That is Kolar assumes JonBenet was sexually assaulted then she snacked pineapple then she was whacked on the head for whatever reason?

Whereas to date RDI assume the pineapple snack precedes her sexual assault.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I’ve been trying to get around to responding to a lot of posts that I just can’t keep up with. So instead, I’ll just try and put it all in one post and see if anyone can find fault in what I propose as a scenario as it relates to the evidence we know and what we realize we might not know. I know it will bore some who’ve heard it before (I can just imagine DeeDee rolling her eyes now.).





I welcome any comments, questions, or discussion.

LOL! I didn't roll my eyes....but I DID sigh.

 

[otg]

UKG, :floorlaugh: be careful with that foreign t'backy -- especially the *advertiser censored* with no names on them (and for Americans: no, it's not the same thing :giggle.

BTW, the whole thing about "digital" molestation started when the search warrants were released. In the second addendum to the warrants,
James Byfield (the affiant) wrote (bbm):

"Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact."
​

That's it. That is the only place it's been stated. Anywhere else you've heard it or read it, it was simply being repeated.

 

[midwest mama]

otg - Your theory of JB possibly being restrained by the neck ligature from something above, and the head bash being used for control, which rendered her unconscious and unable to reach to loosen the neck cord when her body collapsed, isn't impossible to consider.

What I wonder is if it possible she couldn't reach to loosen the neck cord at some point because her hands were also restrained with the wrist ligature to something that prevented her being able to move them in defense. The right wrist was still tied into a ligature, but the left was free from it when JB was brought up from the WC. The photo of the wrist noose shows the end that might have been around the left wrist being constructed with another slip knot type loop wrap. Could this be because the killer wanted to be able to easily undo her wrists from a restrained position - and was able to do so once she became incapacitated from the head blow?

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
I completely agree. Its the RDI theoretical assumption that there was a scream so she was whacked on the head that I consider tenuous.

I find it very tenuous. Melony Stanton isn't a very credible witness. She had to be coached into settling on an audible scream as opposed to "negative energy" (whatever that means). While a scream can't be ruled out I see no reason to put much confidence in it as a "fact".

Does this mean JonBenet's assailant was already holding some blunt force weapon in their hand, and that JonBenet's head was in simple reach?

Holding a blunt object in one hand and diddling her with the finger of the other - hard to buy it imo. The weapon could have been close at hand, rather than in hand, but imo that would pretty much mean it's the flashlight.

If the head blow was not a deliberate staging attempt then surely her head injury must result from the manner in which she was positioned as she was being sexually assaulted?

.

Possibly, but another possibility is that she was struck, deliberately, just not in response to a scream.

 

[Chrishope]

(snip, snip)

A "slip knot" is not any particular knot. Many knots are considered slip knots. A slip knot is simply a knot that binds one end of a rope, cord, string (whatever) to itself. Whether it slips freely or not depends on the exact knot and how tightly it is tied to itself (the "standing" part).

The furrow was formed after the ligature remained in the same place for an extended period of time, after there was no longer any pulling on the free end of the cord.

ETA: But you are correct that the tightening of the cord at the location furrow formed could just as easily have come from the method you describe (without the paintbrush attached).

Not really disagreeing but if it doesn't slip freely in one direction it sometimes (though not always) doesn't slip freely in the other. This one, as far as I can see, didn't slip freely to loosen up. If it was equally difficult to tighten I doubt it would have pressed tightly against the back of her neck. Tight enough to continue the furrow, deeply, at the back.

I could be wrong though.

That the ligature remained in the same place for a long time means either that BR took his sweet time summoning the parents (quite possible) or that the parents took one look, decided she was dead, that they needed to stage the crime scene (With PR quickly deciding to go along) and made no attempt to remove it. It's possible of course, but I'd think parents genuinely surprised by the accidental garrotting of their daughter might try to remove it.

 

[Chrishope]

otg - Your theory of JB possibly being restrained by the neck ligature from something above, and the head bash being used for control, which rendered her unconscious and unable to reach to loosen the neck cord when her body collapsed, isn't impossible to consider.

What I wonder is if it possible she couldn't reach to loosen the neck cord at some point because her hands were also restrained with the wrist ligature to something that prevented her being able to move them in defense. The right wrist was still tied into a ligature, but the left was free from it when JB was brought up from the WC. The photo of the wrist noose shows the end that might have been around the left wrist being constructed with another slip knot type loop wrap. Could this be because the killer wanted to be able to easily undo her wrists from a restrained position - and was able to do so once she became incapacitated from the head blow?

But if we are moving away from a childish game of "walk the doggie" to a weird kinky bondage scenario then don't we have to move away from a 9 year old in favor of an adult? I have trouble with the idea of a 9 year old as bondage-master with JBR's neck secured to something above and her wrists bound - but I did have a sheltered childhood.

 

[midwest mama]

But if we are moving away from a childish game of "walk the doggie" to a weird kinky bondage scenario then don't we have to move away from a 9 year old in favor of an adult? I have trouble with the idea of a 9 year old as bondage-master with JBR's neck secured to something above and her wrists bound - but I did have a sheltered childhood.

Exactly. otg may have a credible scenario concerning her death, but I do not think his selection of a perp is on track. I cannot see anyone other than an adult being JB's molester/killer.

If it was BDI, then he should be watched like a hawk for the rest of his life.

 

[ozazure]

Anecdotally (have no science to back this up), I have heard that people with that kind of kink, often experience an interest since childhood, in such a way that it is more of a orientation than game in adulthood. Doesn't happen for them much without it. Not that it is necessarily sexual in nature in childhood, but like how little girls in general might get their barbie and ken to kiss now and then - people who grow up kinky will especially enjoy child-like games with restraint like cops and robbers. Innocent but looking back, they see the roots of their desires.

It does seem really bizarre that a 9yo could be into that sexually ... but it is bizarre when 9 year olds are sexualised and it happens. I do think it reduces the likelihood by a lot ... but I am not sure it is impossible. More likely if they have been abused or exposed to it via *advertiser censored*. Such a sad thing to contemplate.

 

[questfortrue]

But if we are moving away from a childish game of "walk the doggie" to a weird kinky bondage scenario then don't we have to move away from a 9 year old in favor of an adult? I have trouble with the idea of a 9 year old as bondage-master with JBR's neck secured to something above and her wrists bound - but I did have a sheltered childhood.

I was sheltered as a child, too, but a 9 year old as a “bondage-master,” is a stretch for me. Not impossible to imagine, dunno. IDK who came up with the cord used for strangulation:, BR was with her when JB had pineapple, the cord had PR’s jacket fibers, but in terms of who would fashion a “garrote-looking” device, my suspicion falls on the adult in the family who read suspense/ thriller novels - JR And then all the “flashy criminal threats” in the RN. When MM suggested perhaps JR dictated some of this to PR, a light bulb went on in terms of the note’s verbiage, the garrote and JR who read these books. It seems like JR is so much deeper in this crime than is indicated on the surface. JMHO.

 

[ozazure]

I was sheltered as a child, too, but a 9 year old as a “bondage-master,” is a stretch for me. Not impossible to imagine, dunno. IDK who came up with the cord used for strangulation:, BR was with her when JB had pineapple, the cord had PR’s jacket fibers, but in terms of who would fashion a “garrote-looking” device, my suspicion falls on the adult in the family who read suspense/ thriller novels - JR And then all the “flashy criminal threats” in the RN. When MM suggested perhaps JR dictated some of this to PR, a light bulb went on in terms of the note’s verbiage, the garrote and JR who read these books. It seems like JR is so much deeper in this crime than is indicated on the surface. JMHO.

This spoke to me, the ridiculous wording in the note does match the ridiculous use of the cord. To me, both are either desperately naive or deliberately "campy", the latter being much darker, a little joke or sarcasm.

 

[UKGuy]

I find it very tenuous. Melony Stanton isn't a very credible witness. She had to be coached into settling on an audible scream as opposed to "negative energy" (whatever that means). While a scream can't be ruled out I see no reason to put much confidence in it as a "fact".

Holding a blunt object in one hand and diddling her with the finger of the other - hard to buy it imo. The weapon could have been close at hand, rather than in hand, but imo that would pretty much mean it's the flashlight.



Possibly, but another possibility is that she was struck, deliberately, just not in response to a scream.

Chrishope,
I agree. Whacking JonBenet on the head with such force seems to create another more complex problem?

At six-years old JonBenet could be easily physically restrained, whomever whacked her on the head must have known doing so would mean game-over?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKG, :floorlaugh: be careful with that foreign t'backy -- especially the *advertiser censored* with no names on them (and for Americans: no, it's not the same thing :giggle.

BTW, the whole thing about "digital" molestation started when the search warrants were released. In the second addendum to the warrants,
James Byfield (the affiant) wrote (bbm):

"Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 27, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that it was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact."
​

That's it. That is the only place it's been stated. Anywhere else you've heard it or read it, it was simply being repeated.

otg,
Sure thats where I've seen it before. I've quoted it many times. What is interesting is Coroner Meyer opines there was Digital Penetration and there was Sexual Contact, now however you care to parse that, it does not add up to staging for me?

I interpret that as a description of an acute sexual assault using a finger?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
I agree. Whacking JonBenet on the head with such force seems to create another more complex problem?

At six-years old JonBenet could be easily physically restrained, whomever whacked her on the head must have known doing so would mean game-over?

.

It's hard to imagine the killer striking her that hard and not knowing.