Happenings of December 26

[Tadpole12]

The Christian God is Male.

Heyya BB,
just 'cause I wondered,

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God_in_Christianity"]Gender of God in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Gender of God in Christianity

God - Wikipedia has traditionally been described using masculine terms in Christian scripture and theology. While this has sometimes given rise to the idea that Christians consider God to be male the majority of Christian denomination (with the notable exception of Mormonism accept a God who transcends gender

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Heyya BB,
just 'cause I wondered,
the majority of Christian denomination accept a God who transcends gender

That's very New Age but they didn't write the Torah now did they?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Jehovah (Je-ho'vah) [the causitive form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha-wah" (become); meaning "He causes to become"]. JHVH, Yad-He-Vau-He.

Lots of Hes there. Had the feminine been intended shem might have been included. It wasn't. Thus the history of misogyny?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Grammatical gender in the Bible[edit]The first words of the Old Testament are B'reshit bara Elohim — "In the beginning God created."[4] The verb bara (he created) agrees with a subject with masculine grammatical gender.[citation needed] Elohim also has masculine grammatical gender.[citation needed] The masculine gender in Hebrew can be used for objects with no inherent gender, as well as objects with masculine natural gender.[citation needed]

Two of most common phrases in the Tanakh are vayomer Elohim and vayomer YHWH — "and God said". Again, the verb vayomer (he said) is masculine; it is never vatomer, the feminine of the same verb form. The personal name of God, YHWH, is presented in Exodus 3 as if the Y (Hebrew yod) is the masculine subjective prefix to the verb to be.[citation needed]

In Psalms 89:26 God is referred to as Father. "He shall cry unto me, Thou art my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation."[5]

Some literary approaches to the Old Testament have argued that parallels between Biblical stories and earlier Sumerian, Akkadian and Canaanite creation myths show a matriarchal substratum that has been overlaid by a patriarchal approach.[6] "In the Bible, the earth is the feminine complement of God: the two combined to form man, who articulates their relationship, for example, in sacrifice."[7]

The New Testament also refers to the Holy Spirit in masculine terminology,[vague] most clearly in the Gospel of John 14-16.

Lots of Hes there (without your selective editing).

 

[Tadpole12]

Lots of Hes there (without your selective editing).

sure.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Sure enough.
(He he he)

 

[midwest mama]

BlueBottle-- In your opinion, or given your knowledge of psychotic behavior, would it have been possible for Patsy to participate in the killing of JB while in the midst of a dis-associative psychotic episode if there was someone else in attendance as well?

I can claim no knowledge of how someone with those disorders functions...whether their psychotic fantasies have to be purported only in seclusion, or if they can happen when someone else simply looks at them sideways and wonders what on earth is going on with that person. Having lived with a person who demonstrates BPD, I know that their reality gets sideways appearing to the rest of the world, but they see no problems.

If Patsy was akin to behaviors that JR just brushed aside for the sake of harmony in his home, thinking PR was probably otherwise harmless up to that point while functional as his wife and mother of his kids, could he have not seen any significant signs of PR offering JB sacrificially to Father God (and also thinking she was creating and/or changing JB into an Angel) if he was at the crime scene to participate in the bash/strangling?

Is is a possibility that PR was able to give JB a send off to Heaven, while JR had no clue they were doing nothing more than silencing their seemingly "damaged" daughter in order to keep her from possibly ratting out a heinous history of child sexual abuse and incest in the Ramsey household?

At this point in my study of the case, I simply cannot give JR the remotest fraction of a pass in JB's death. In fact, I have long held him almost totally responsible, except for the possibility of PR discovering them involved in an incestuous activity and clobbering JB, either intentionally because she had previously given her instructions to stay away from any of the male family members, or by mistake because she mean to strike JR.

But, your posts have made me look harder at Patsy, and having done so, I cannot dismiss your opinion of her being psychotic, especially with these things considered:

1. a stage 4 ovarian cancer diagnosis
2. a belief that she was healed of this by divine intervention
3. demonstrated reliance on scripture and it's power
4. the Biblical connection between Angels and Stars
5. the choice of a Star shirt for JB to wear for the celebration of Christmas
6. the color choice of Purple for the 1996 Christmas, which equates to the
Easter season: the death and resurrection of Christ
7. her plea for Christ to resurrect her daughter
8. the order of the My Twinn doll which was dressed in a white dress (Angels
are equated with wearing white garb, as is the resurrected Jesus)
9. her choice of a second-hand purchased white pageant dress in which to
bury JB
10. the gift of the inscribed gold bracelet dated for Dec 25.

But, the planned Disney trip, the clothing packing, the agreement to go to MI and JB's entry into a pageant after the holiday have previously led me to discount any premeditation on Patsy's part. Is it possible she was in and out of personalities causing both patterns to happen?

And, is it possible that she did not begin the hours of time after arriving home from the White's the evening of the 25th in the psychotic Patsy personality, but rather in the Disney trip planning Patsy personality, only to kick into the other after having been caught up in a situation where JB was either rendered unconscious by BR or seen in an incestuous relationship with JR?

If her "trigger was tripped", and it became necessary for JR to aide her in JB's murder, is it possible he had no knowledge of it? Or would he have known, but realized later that she truly was dissociated at the time, thereby not remembering her participation, or maybe not anything much else about that evening?

I have more questions, and apologize if much of this is disoriented in presentation, but as a novice with psychological experience, I am not able to pose my concerns in any other manner.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

1. a stage 4 ovarian cancer diagnosis
2. a belief that she was healed of this by divine intervention
3. demonstrated reliance on scripture and it's power
4. the Biblical connection between Angels and Stars
5. the choice of a Star shirt for JB to wear for the celebration of Christmas
6. the color choice of Purple for the 1996 Christmas, which equates to the
Easter season: the death and resurrection of Christ
7. her plea for Christ to resurrect her daughter
8. the order of the My Twinn doll which was dressed in a white dress (Angels
are equated with wearing white garb, as is the resurrected Jesus)
9. her choice of a second-hand purchased white pageant dress in which to
bury JB
10. the gift of the inscribed gold bracelet dated for Dec 25.

RSBM
I just don't see how faith in God has anything to do with this case. That she had faith and believed in God and that he was there for her, That she believed she could be healed. I don't see that as anything other than real faith.

And I know many many people who feel that way.

Her faith was important to her. That is all that says.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

BlueBottle-- (1) In your opinion, or given your knowledge of psychotic behavior, would it have been possible for Patsy to participate in the killing of JB while in the midst of a dis-associative psychotic episode if there was someone else in attendance as well?

I can claim no knowledge of how someone with those disorders functions...whether their psychotic fantasies have to be purported only in seclusion, or if they can happen when someone else simply looks at them sideways and wonders what on earth is going on with that person. Having lived with a person who demonstrates BPD, I know that their reality gets sideways appearing to the rest of the world, but they see no problems.

(2) If Patsy was akin to behaviors that JR just brushed aside for the sake of harmony in his home, thinking PR was probably otherwise harmless up to that point while functional as his wife and mother of his kids, could he have not seen any significant signs of PR offering JB sacrificially to Father God (and also thinking she was creating and/or changing JB into an Angel) if he was at the crime scene to participate in the bash/strangling?

(3) Is is a possibility that PR was able to give JB a send off to Heaven, while JR had no clue they were doing nothing more than silencing their seemingly "damaged" daughter in order to keep her from possibly ratting out a heinous history of child sexual abuse and incest in the Ramsey household?

(4) At this point in my study of the case, I simply cannot give JR the remotest fraction of a pass in JB's death. In fact, I have long held him almost totally responsible, except for the possibility of PR discovering them involved in an incestuous activity and clobbering JB, either intentionally because she had previously given her instructions to stay away from any of the male family members, or by mistake because she mean to strike JR.

But, your posts have made me look harder at Patsy, and having done so, I cannot dismiss your opinion of her being psychotic, especially with these things considered:

1. a stage 4 ovarian cancer diagnosis
2. a belief that she was healed of this by divine intervention
3. demonstrated reliance on scripture and it's power
4. the Biblical connection between Angels and Stars
5. the choice of a Star shirt for JB to wear for the celebration of Christmas
6. the color choice of Purple for the 1996 Christmas, which equates to the
Easter season: the death and resurrection of Christ
7. her plea for Christ to resurrect her daughter
8. the order of the My Twinn doll which was dressed in a white dress (Angels
are equated with wearing white garb, as is the resurrected Jesus)
9. her choice of a second-hand purchased white pageant dress in which to
bury JB
10. the gift of the inscribed gold bracelet dated for Dec 25.

But, the planned Disney trip, the clothing packing, the agreement to go to MI and JB's entry into a pageant after the holiday have previously led me to discount any premeditation on Patsy's part.

(5) Is it possible she was in and out of personalities causing both patterns to happen?

And, is it possible that she did not begin the hours of time after arriving home from the White's the evening of the 25th in the psychotic Patsy personality, but rather in the Disney trip planning Patsy personality, (6) only to kick into the other after having been caught up in a situation where JB was either rendered unconscious by BR or seen in an incestuous relationship with JR?

If her "trigger was tripped", and it became necessary for JR to aide her in JB's murder, is it possible he had no knowledge of it? (7) Or would he have known, but realized later that she truly was dissociated at the time, thereby not remembering her participation, or maybe not anything much else about that evening?

I have more questions, and apologize if much of this is disoriented in presentation, but as a novice with psychological experience, (8)I am not able to pose my concerns in any other manner.

(1) Yes, but in this case no one else was there.
(2) Anyone that knew Patsy saw the signs. Most often they were written off as eccenticities.
(3) No, John had nothing to do with any of it.
(4) The problem in deciphering this case is the assumption that two people were involved; the abuser and the absee. When in fact only one person was involved; the abuser and the oblects that person used.
(5) Bingo! You win the blue ribbon. You get to go to the front of the class.
(6) No.
(7) John had nothing to di with any of it.
(8) You did very well. Just leave out John and Burke and your trip down the rabbit hole will be even more illuminating.

 

[DeDee]

1. a stage 4 ovarian cancer diagnosis
2. a belief that she was healed of this by divine intervention
3. demonstrated reliance on scripture and it's power
4. the Biblical connection between Angels and Stars
5. the choice of a Star shirt for JB to wear for the celebration of Christmas
6. the color choice of Purple for the 1996 Christmas, which equates to the
Easter season: the death and resurrection of Christ
7. her plea for Christ to resurrect her daughter
8. the order of the My Twinn doll which was dressed in a white dress (Angels
are equated with wearing white garb, as is the resurrected Jesus)
9. her choice of a second-hand purchased white pageant dress in which to
bury JB
10. the gift of the inscribed gold bracelet dated for Dec 25.

But, the planned Disney trip, the clothing packing, the agreement to go to MI and JB's entry into a pageant after the holiday have previously led me to discount any premeditation on Patsy's part. Is it possible she was in and out of personalities causing both patterns to happen?

Absolutely a paramount list of premeditation, midwest mama. The list cannot be dismissed bc of religious connotations. PR was a highly religious woman. Her religious activities centered around miracles and healing during her cancer recovery.

PR made plans for the future just as she continued to do after the death of her daughter. The BRB cruise was no big deal to PR. She had been lavished with a wonderful bday bash in Denver. She cared nothing about going to MI. JR pushed that plan.

Notice the chaotic appearance of JARs bed where PR was packing for the Big Red Boat. Their clothing is not nearly packed and ready for two kids on a 7 day cruise.

I am uncertain if LE found luggage in PRs dressing area that indicated she was physically packing and preparing as well for the BRB cruise.


OMO

 

[Hexe]

Notice the chaotic appearance of JARs bed where PR was packing for the Big Red Boat. Their clothing is not nearly packed and ready for two kids on a 7 day cruise.

I am uncertain if LE found luggage in PRs dressing area that indicated she was physically packing and preparing as well for the BRB cruise.


OMO

Well, maybe Patsy, not very well organised person, really planned to pack the clothes for that trip the night before, but after the murder she didn't have a time for that, busy with creating a cover up story and all plans changed anyway.

 

[midwest mama]

Absolutely a paramount list of premeditation, midwest mama. The list cannot be dismissed bc of religious connotations. PR was a highly religious woman. Her religious activities centered around miracles and healing during her cancer recovery.

PR made plans for the future just as she continued to do after the death of her daughter. The BRB cruise was no big deal to PR. She had been lavished with a wonderful bday bash in Denver. She cared nothing about going to MI. JR pushed that plan.

Notice the chaotic appearance of JARs bed where PR was packing for the Big Red Boat. Their clothing is not nearly packed and ready for two kids on a 7 day cruise.

I am uncertain if LE found luggage in PRs dressing area that indicated she was physically packing and preparing as well for the BRB cruise.


OMO

My foggy memory tells me there was luggage found in the R's bedroom, I think for Patsy, but not for John?? DeeDee249, where are you?

 

[DeeDee249]

My foggy memory tells me there was luggage found in the R's bedroom, I think for Patsy, but not for John?? DeeDee249, where are you?

I'm here. You are right about JR's suitcase. In an interview with LE (available on ACR) she was questioned about the suitcases found in JAR's room (which Patsy described as a guest room). Patsy said she had three black suitcases- she had the kids' suitcases but not one for JR. She said she hadn't packed for JR and if he had a suitcase packed it would have been in his bedroom dressing area. Patsy and JR had their own dressing areas on either side of their bedroom. She also said the plastic bags were for the trip to Charlevoix and the suitcases were for the Disney cruise.
There was a combination of luggage and clothing in plastic trash bags. JR said they often used plastic bags for the plane to save on weight. Patsy said they kept things at the Charlevoix house, so they didn't need to pack much. However, they primarily went there in the summer, so they might have needed winter clothes. They were coming back to Boulder after just a few days in Charlevoix, so I think Patsy would have finished packing for the cruise then.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm here. You are right about JR's suitcase. In an interview with LE (available on ACR) she was questioned about the suitcases found in JAR's room (which Patsy described as a guest room). Patsy said she had three black suitcases- she had the kids' suitcases but not one for JR. She said she hadn't packed for JR and if he had a suitcase packed it would have been in his bedroom dressing area. Patsy and JR had their own dressing areas on either side of their bedroom. She also said the plastic bags were for the trip to Charlevoix and the suitcases were for the Disney cruise.
There was a combination of luggage and clothing in plastic trash bags. JR said they often used plastic bags for the plane to save on weight. Patsy said they kept things at the Charlevoix house, so they didn't need to pack much. However, they primarily went there in the summer, so they might have needed winter clothes. They were coming back to Boulder after just a few days in Charlevoix, so I think Patsy would have finished packing for the cruise then.

The timing of their trips always bothered me. Off to MI on the 26th, and back in time to make it to Florida to depart on their cruise on the 29th. At the most, only day/night of the 28th at home again in Boulder. I suppose not impossible for Patsy to finish up all the packing that day. I do recall they had commercial flights scheduled for Florida, instead of going by company plane.

I also thought it unusual that JR had the older kids purposefully get the "cheap tickets" (his words) on a commercial flight to meet up with the R's in Minnesota before he picked them up in the company plane and took them on to MI to celebrate their first holiday as a family since he and Patsy had gotten married. A company with a Billion dollars in sales and his older kids (and future son-in-law who they were meeting for the first time) have to take "cheap ticket" flights and change off planes in Minneapolis?

The most perplexing question is why even plan to get together with the older kids in MI? Patsy had to contact a company up there to have the house put in order and decorated just specially for that celebration, for them to only be there overnight 2 nights at most? Why not just have the older kids come up to Boulder on the 26th using commercial flights if JR didn't want to use the company planes to get them back and forth. Lots easier on the little kids to be able to stay home and have decent bedtimes and wake times with another big trip coming. Not to speak of giving PR more time to work on getting ready for the Disney trip, and not have to gather up extra things for MI.

It was enough for PR to concede to hosting the party on the 23rd at their house after earlier deciding not to have that type of celebration that year, but to go along with JR throwing in the MI gathering also sounds so off....given that PR demonstrated she could be something other than a pushover at a couple of her later interviews with LE and media.

If PR would have asked JR to bring the older kids to Boulder instead of making plans for them all to do the Michigan thing, and he was the type of father he portrayed himself to be, surely he would have realized his responsibility to the well-being of the younger kids, and his already overtaxed wife (who was recovering from intensive cancer treatment) was more important than any inconvenience to the older kids?

Something is just so off about the squeezed in trip to MI.

 

[DeeDee249]

It is true that Patsy did NOT want to go to Charlevoix. It was JR who wanted to have a Christmas celebration there. This was a high-stress situation for Patsy- getting the Charlevoix house cleaned and decorated- for just a few days- then flying home again only to prepare to fly out again for "part 2". Any mom with a couple of kids to pack for would be stressed by this. Any of you here who have ever readied a family for a vacation trip knows what is involved. Packing, laundry, re-packing, packing activities for the kids- cold weather clothes for Michigan, warm weather clothes for Florida. Most schools have about a 10-day Christmas break. So to have to do this twice within a week or so had to have been a major pain. Add this to meeting a new family member (JR's older daughter's fiance) and a high-strung Patsy and you can see why she wouldn't have wanted to go. And Patsy had just had TWO trips to NYC the previous month.

 

[Anyhoo]

It is true that Patsy did NOT want to go to Charlevoix. It was JR who wanted to have a Christmas celebration there. This was a high-stress situation for Patsy- getting the Charlevoix house cleaned and decorated- for just a few days- then flying home again only to prepare to fly out again for "part 2". Any mom with a couple of kids to pack for would be stressed by this. Any of you here who have ever readied a family for a vacation trip knows what is involved. Packing, laundry, re-packing, packing activities for the kids- cold weather clothes for Michigan, warm weather clothes for Florida. Most schools have about a 10-day Christmas break. So to have to do this twice within a week or so had to have been a major pain. Add this to meeting a new family member (JR's older daughter's fiance) and a high-strung Patsy and you can see why she wouldn't have wanted to go. And Patsy had just had TWO trips to NYC the previous month.

And yet PR just threw on her same on her same old clothes from yesterday for this trip to meet new family members. Does anyone believe that? I should ask, does anyone who is not IDI believe that? Apparently IDI has no problem with that scenario. What it comes down to is this: You see what you want to see and you don't see what you don't want to see.

 

[bettybaby00]

And yet PR just threw on her same on her same old clothes from yesterday for this trip to meet new family members. Does anyone believe that? I should ask, does anyone who is not IDI believe that? Apparently IDI has no problem with that scenario. What it comes down to is this: You see what you want to see and you don't see what you don't want to see.

There are one or two things regarding the Rs behaviors that on the surface one could argue is "reasonable."

However, that only works if considering these behaviors as singular events, and in a "vacuum." Wearing the same clothes, and calling 911 when the Rn instructs them not to are two of these types of behaviors. But they can't be considered in a vacuum. Calling the police is one thing, but calling the police and then to proceed to call pretty much everyone you know is not normal considering the threats in the RN. Throwing on the same clothes from the day before in and of itself is not damning. But considering PRs fastidious nature along with no signs that her perfectly applied makeup or hair didn't show any wear and tear from all the alleged panic and emotional turmoil between the time the Rn is found, the 911 call is made and the first police officer arriving on the scene doesn't seem reasonable. Especially we are talking a matter of minutes between that call and the arrival of LO.

The issue regarding the Rs behavior(s) is that it can't be viewed in a vacuum, or rationalized on a incident by incident basis. Coincidences do exist, but when they start to pile-up they can no longer be viewed as such.

Too many coincidences = a pattern.

 

[Mama2JML]

RS&BBM

And yet PR just threw on her same on her same old clothes from yesterday for this trip to meet new family members... You see what you want to see and you don't see what you don't want to see.

Apparently so...

Bias is inevitable, but in many/most instances it can and should be curbed. "Just threw on" & "old clothes" are descriptors you have applied. But, an accumulation of facts provided by LE, first responders, witnesses, POIs, etc., don't support your "spin".

 

[bettybaby00]

RS&BBMApparently so...

Bias is inevitable, but in many/most instances it can and should be curbed. "Just threw on" & "old clothes" are descriptors you have applied. But, an accumulation of facts provided by LE, first responders, witnesses, POIs, etc., don't support your "spin".

I get your point that "threw on" and "old clothes" can be characterized as bias...but what "spin" are you referring to that isn't supported by LO?

 

[DeDee]

RBBM

I'm here. You are right about JR's suitcase. In an interview with LE (available on ACR) she was questioned about the suitcases found in JAR's room (which Patsy described as a guest room). Patsy said she had three black suitcases- she had the kids' suitcases but not one for JR. She said she hadn't packed for JR and if he had a suitcase packed it would have been in his bedroom dressing area. Patsy and JR had their own dressing areas on either side of their bedroom. She also said the plastic bags were for the trip to Charlevoix and the suitcases were for the Disney cruise.
There was a combination of luggage and clothing in plastic trash bags. JR said they often used plastic bags for the plane to save on weight. Patsy said they kept things at the Charlevoix house, so they didn't need to pack much. However, they primarily went there in the summer, so they might have needed winter clothes. They were coming back to Boulder after just a few days in Charlevoix, so I think Patsy would have finished packing for the cruise then.

DeeDee, need your help. :spring: When LE is showing JR pics from the CS, he describes seeing a bag filled with clothing and opines to LE that perhaps the bag of clothing could be a charitable gift meant for donating.

I have never seen an official reference to the whereabouts of the third piece of black luggage. IOW, did LE find evidence in PRs dressing area that she was indeed packing her apparel for the cruise?

IIRC, the plan had the Rs arriving in MI on the 26th and departing MI late on the 27th when they would be home for a day, Sat., Dec. 28, before flying out on the 29th to FL for the BRBC (Big Red Boat Cruise). PRs birthday was on Sunday, Dec. 29, 1996 although she already celebrated with a big bash in Denver in late November.

JR offers an explanation for the BRBC. I think it was always his idea to take a cruise and go to Charlevoix bc being w/his family was important to him. Plus it gave him an opp not to think about Beth.

PR celebrated her fortieth already and prob had no desire to be on a 4 day Disney cruise. She didn't want to host the Dec 23 party either.


" ... We had never been on a
16 cruise. Christmas is a tough time for us because I
17 think we lost Beth in January, and we liked to
18 kind of have things to do and planned.
19 So we thought, that would be fun thing to do, a
20 family thing. And we had never been on a cruise,
21 and going to the Big Red Boat and have fun with
22 the kids. So we just planned it and it was kind of
23 a first. Because I'd never done something like
24 that.

12 MIKE KANE: Who made those arrangements?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy made the reservations?
14 MIKE KANE: Was it through the travel agent?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: The travel agent. Actually
16 I think I remember calling Walt Disney directly. I
17 think I might have gotten the number out of a
18 magazine or something. Because I think I remember
19 joining the Disney or somebody like that directly.
20 Because we had the option of going to Disney World
21 for a day or two, and we no, because Patsy didn't
22 want to. I Remember."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-birthday-patsy-1996.htm