Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[Mountain_Kat]

To be succinct...NO.

 

[songline]

I agree...I think Casey is mentally ill and that she was growing progressively worse in the years since high school but no one wanted to acknowledge it. And I also question the sanity of her driving around with Caylee's body in her trunk, which I do believe she did, but it makes zero sense; it probably took her 5 minutes to dispose of Caylee, once she did so. Any person over the age of 12 knows a body will begin to smell.

I do believe she should be kept from society as I don't think she will ever admit to what she did.

And I loathe the "Tot Mom" label...it gives Nancy Grace some sort of sense of superiority, IMO, in her mind to not acknowledge that Casey has a name.

Ditto!

 

[katydid23]

Well, I reserve the right to have my own opinion just as I respect the right of others to their own opinions.
As for mine? I have always maintained that Casey Anthony is mentally ill.
I've never wavered or changed from that opinion, and although I agree that I don't know anyone who would as you say,"throw their child into a garbage bag and slap duct tape around it's face).at least not in their right mind.......I would never be so bold as to judge a mentally deficient person, for I take very very seriously the words of Christ who warned us of the consequence of doing so.

I cannot get into the mind of Casey A.

I have a problem with calling a human being degrading names, and hating her spirit (or person) for her actions and not even benefiting her with a first name (like Tot mom) I think that is rather infantile to do so as it may indeed show more about the person then the object of their scorn to do so.

At least Carl Jung would have said so. And he made a great deal of sense to me at least philosophically speaking.

Her actions I could judge however, as deplorable actions , just not the person herself as I don't believe in "evil souls" and none of her actions however reprehensible are evidence of "pre-meditation", imo.

First of all, Of course you have the right to your own opinion. Which is why I said IMO, in my opinion, in my response.

I agree that Casey seems to have some mental issues. But they are not the type of diagnosis which legally give her a pass for her actions. She was fully aware of her actions and her behavior. She tailored her lies in the precise way necessary to avoid being caught by various friends and relatives. She was lucid enough to keep her stories straight and to cover up her evil deed for over a month.

I think her actions are deplorable and she behaved barbarically. I think even Jung would agree and would find her interesting as an archetype of the selfish Black Moon Lilith of our times. imoo [ in my opinion only]

As for evil souls, sorry, but we have different opinions and that is fine. But I believe Ted Bundy and the NightStalker and many others, are indeed, 'evil souls.' Just My Opinion.

And when I look at what Casey did to her family and to her father most specifically, and to many other innocent people that she accused of murder, rape and kidnapping, then YES, she is evil, imo. EVEN IF THE CHILD DIED BY ACCIDENT, the vile behavior in the aftermath, where Casey purposely ruined so many lives in her greedy quest to walk away with no punishment, she deserves a harsh sentence for that alone.



ETA;"The primordial image, or archetype, is a figure--be it a daemon, a human being, or a process--that constantly recurs in the course of history and appears wherever creative fantasy is freely expressed. Essentially, therefore, it is a mythological figure. . . . In each of these images there is a little piece of human psychology and human fate, a remnant of the joys and sorrows that have been repeated countless times in our ancestral history. . . ." Carl Jung "On the Relation of Analytical Psychology to Poetry" from C.G. Jung Quotes.

 

[grandmaj]

No. The Defense went all in and decided to try to come up with alternative theories. They didn't have to do that but IMO by doing what they did they set themselves up for expectations of proof, and they didn't come through with reasonable proof. They also changed their game too many times. The only theory that stood was perhaps an accidental drowning. But I believe the State tied up in a bow the reality and the common sense that whatever her parents are, they loved Caylee and would not have disposed of her with the trash.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I agree...I think Casey is mentally ill and that she was growing progressively worse in the years since high school but no one wanted to acknowledge it. And I also question the sanity of her driving around with Caylee's body in her trunk, which I do believe she did, but it makes zero sense; it probably took her 5 minutes to dispose of Caylee, once she did so. Any person over the age of 12 knows a body will begin to smell.

I do believe she should be kept from society as I don't think she will ever admit to what she did.

And I loathe the "Tot Mom" label...it gives Nancy Grace some sort of sense of superiority, IMO, in her mind to not acknowledge that Casey has a name.

I've debated this with a coworker at length... I personally think she has some sort of axis II disorder (and I am by no means an expert) like narcissistic personality or antisocial personality disorder. So in some ways that would make her mentally ill, but not in the sense that she can be treated with medication and stabilized, or find relief from her symptoms. Personality disorders are funny things... They don't have any organic disease process as far as researchers know, they just sort of seem to be variant personality types that have managed to continue to propagate because they have unique survival skills. So is that really a mental illness, per say? Or are they just, well, different? Reading articles and books written by people who study people with these personality disorders is intellectually fascinating but a little scary at the same time. A common theme throughout is the description of their complete inability to empathize with other human beings. They're intrigued by others, they mimic "normal" responses, but they don't truly have the capacity to understand how others feel because they lack empathy. Think about this, think about what we use to define our morals and ethics. If we're functional human beings, we live within the laws and boundaries that society dictates. Why do we do this? Some of it is probably fear, but we don't live in a police state. We could easily get away with committing at least a dozen petty crimes every day, and our chances of getting caught would be slim. We don't do these things because we know they are wrong, and we would feel guilty. For example we would understand that if we swiped the money out of a donation jar on the counter of the corner market, we would be hurting the person who needs those donations and we would feel bad. People with APD and NPD wouldn't, they lack the capacity to feel that guilt, at least according to the mental health community. So while I completely understand the person ^above^ who said we can only judge actions, I also understand the person who feels like Casey is missing something essential to the human experience, something that makes her capable of being evil. It's truly a conundrum, what do you with a person like this, one that can't be "cured" (according to research) and really has no desire to be rehabilitated, because they can't truly grasp what they're lacking? Alas I have no answers, so all we can do is let the jury decide her fate based on the law, and hope that doesn't have a chance to hurt anyone else. MOO

 

[gngr~snap]

i say by 2 tomorrow.

verdict.

I say 4:00 p
1-1/2 hr for lunch 12:00-1:30:seeya:

 

[logicalgirl]

Okay... But those are tests on the carpet samples. We know those tested high, the question is why?

Because ICA knew she wouldn't need whatever stash of chloroform she had left so she poured it into the trunk while Caylee was there? ICA had to know it evaporates...

 

[rachelle]

Hope I put this in the right thread...

I was wondering if the jury is aware, or will be made aware, that this new "GA did it/pool accident" theory/story was just told to the world as the now "truth" on the first day of trial....

Or are they supposed to assume that this was being floated around for awhile just as the Zanny and Jay Blanchard Park was?

I hope someone understands my question and can help me out here!



TIA

 

[logicalgirl]

To be succinct...NO.

I agree completely Mountain _Kat and welcome back from the dark side!!

 

[logicalgirl]

Hope I put this in the right thread...

I was wondering if the jury is aware, or will be made aware, that this new "GA did it/pool accident" theory/story was just told to the world as the now "truth" on the first day of trial....

Or are they supposed to assume that this was being floated around for awhile just as the Zanny and Jay Blanchard Park was?

I hope someone understands my question and can help me out here!



TIA

They will after they've reached a verdict, made a recommendation to the Judge and are excused with the State's compliments for their fine service to the justice system.

They should be finding about the felony cheques convictions at about the same time.

 

[crucibelle]

You are right. Her failure to call 911 is not proof of murder. Neither is her failure to ever report her child missing. Neither were her intense attempts to mislead law enforcement who were desperate to find Caylee. casey's continual lies for months, to her mom and dad and Lee about what happened to Caylee and her efforts to send them on a wild goose chase, do not prove murder either.

Neither do searches on the internet, months before her daughter's death, for chloroform, neck breaking, inhalation, death, etc.

And high peaks of a volatile chemical like chloroform, found in the trunk of casey's car, actually causing the state to search the Anthony computers for chloroform queries, well, that's not proof of murder either.

The smell of death coming out of the car that only casey drove for the 31 days before Caylee was reported missing, that does not prove murder.

casey's attempts to cover up that smell, by mentioning a dead squirrel, by dumping the car next to a garbage receptacle, that also does not prove murder.

Showing no terror, panic, grief or concern for her dead child in the 31 days after she went missing, that does not prove murder.

Showing nothing but anger and annoyance during the time she was in jail, whenever concern was shown for Caylee rather than casey, well, that also doesn't prove murder.

Even a triple bagged body dumped in a swamp doesn't conclusively prove murder, although we are getting closer.

And finally, perhaps someone can argue that a tiny, two year old skull, found in the mud with duct tape around its nose and mouth holes, the degradable mandible still firmly attached to the the skull because of that duct tape, is not evidence of murder (although I would disagree). Yes, perhaps, one could argue that that duct taped skull is not in an of itself, proof of murder.

But no one here has ever argued that any one of each of those things I listed, proves murder, in and of itself.

What I believe they all show, however, when taken together, is probably obvious. And I have no doubt.

WOW.. gitana!! :yourock:

That was a brilliant post!!! :rocker:

 

[Chewy]

I've debated this with a coworker at length... I personally think she has some sort of axis II disorder (and I am by no means an expert) like narcissistic personality or antisocial personality disorder. So in some ways that would make her mentally ill, but not in the sense that she can be treated with medication and stabilized, or find relief from her symptoms. Personality disorders are funny things... They don't have any organic disease process as far as researchers know, they just sort of seem to be variant personality types that have managed to continue to propagate because they have unique survival skills. So is that really a mental illness, per say? Or are they just, well, different? Reading articles and books written by people who study people with these personality disorders is intellectually fascinating but a little scary at the same time. A common theme throughout is the description of their complete inability to empathize with other human beings. They're intrigued by others, they mimic "normal" responses, but they don't truly have the capacity to understand how others feel because they lack empathy. Think about this, think about what we use to define our morals and ethics. If we're functional human beings, we live within the laws and boundaries that society dictates. Why do we do this? Some of it is probably fear, but we don't live in a police state. We could easily get away with committing at least a dozen petty crimes every day, and our chances of getting caught would be slim. We don't do these things because we know they are wrong, and we would feel guilty. For example we would understand that if we swiped the money out of a donation jar on the counter of the corner market, we would be hurting the person who needs those donations and we would feel bad. People with APD and NPD wouldn't, they lack the capacity to feel that guilt, at least according to the mental health community. So while I completely understand the person ^above^ who said we can only judge actions, I also understand the person who feels like Casey is missing something essential to the human experience, something that makes her capable of being evil. It's truly a conundrum, what do you with a person like this, one that can't be "cured" (according to research) and really has no desire to be rehabilitated, because they can't truly grasp what they're lacking? Alas I have no answers, so all we can do is let the jury decide her fate based on the law, and hope that doesn't have a chance to hurt anyone else. MOO

They lack empathy. My mother has undiagnosed NPD. She is text book case.

I have seen her on more than one occasion mimic being a supportive mom about an issue. She tries. The only time she cries is when she feels she has been betrayed or hurt or wronged. She has absolutely no ability to have empathy about another person in true feelings, only words or actions like a hug.

It's very frightening to see.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Because ICA knew she wouldn't need whatever stash of chloroform she had left so she poured it into the trunk while Caylee was there? ICA had to know it evaporates...

Not exactly the intent of my post, but that's an interesting theory. Do you mean before or after Caylee died?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I agree completely Mountain _Kat and welcome back from the dark side!!

I got the double whammy of Roy Kronk the body snatcher and George Anthony the sob Dad who tried to frame his daughter for murder (I guess...I don't really know WHAT the DT was trying to say), and that was pretty much it for me. I didn't even need a closing argument, to be honest. LWOP or DP...doesn't really matter much to me. I won't lose any sleep on way or the other.

 

[Leomoon80]

First of all, Of course you have the right to your own opinion. Which is why I said IMO, in my opinion, in my response.

I agree that Casey seems to have some mental issues. But they are not the type of diagnosis which legally give her a pass for her actions. She was fully aware of her actions and her behavior. She tailored her lies in the precise way necessary to avoid being caught by various friends and relatives. She was lucid enough to keep her stories straight and to cover up her evil deed for over a month.

I think her actions are deplorable and she behaved barbarically. I think even Jung would agree and would find her interesting as an archetype of the selfish Black Moon Lilith of our times. imoo [ in my opinion only]

As for evil souls, sorry, but we have different opinions and that is fine. But I believe Ted Bundy and the NightStalker and many others, are indeed, 'evil souls.' Just My Opinion.

And when I look at what Casey did to her family and to her father most specifically, and to many other innocent people that she accused of murder, rape and kidnapping, then YES, she is evil, imo. EVEN IF THE CHILD DIED BY ACCIDENT, the vile behavior in the aftermath, where Casey purposely ruined so many lives in her greedy quest to walk away with no punishment, she deserves a harsh sentence for that alone.

Maybe we aren't so far apart as we think we are, for we both give credance to Carl Jung for educating us as to Archtypes (he too studied Astrology)
and for that we are both grateful.

However, just to be on record here, as to the existence of "evil" I'd have to explain myself, (or feel I should explain), that some of the deeds done by those you point to (Night Stalker, Ted Bundy), etc. are so reprehensible that causes society to lock them up and throw away the key, and so they NEED to, protect society from those people, i.e. souls.
Yet, their soul still exists, the same as mine does.

The concept of Evil comes from seeing the dualistic world (in my opinion) in stark black and white terms, for Satan and the "evil one" has come down to us from time immemorable, yet does actually "have a beginning" in the ancient Hebrew texts as a concept and not a soul or a fallen angel. But this is "OT" to even get into.

I think it's a misnomer is what I'm trying to say here.

Not an actuality...but rather a "concept" to explain man's dirty deeds. (women's too), lol. Let's not leave them out. There are Black Widows galore in our society who "off their husbands" and even their children.

 

[GeekyGirl]

They lack empathy. My mother has undiagnosed NPD. She is text book case.

I have seen her on more than one occasion mimic being a supportive mom about an issue. She tries. The only time she cries is when she feels she has been betrayed or hurt or wronged. She has absolutely no ability to have empathy about another person in true feelings, only words or actions like a hug.

It's very frightening to see.

I'm sorry for this... That has to be rough.

 

[Tricia]

If the jurors told the truth when they said they didn't know all the details, some knew nothing about the case, and they really can be unbiased when it comes to deliberations I believe the defense has created reasonable doubt that some of the jurors could hang their opinion on.

That doesn't mean they will find her not guilty. I just think there might be a few jurors that need convincing but I do think the chance of a hung jury is higher after Baez's closing.

I want to stress I don't think Baez did a great job, I don't think Casey is innocent, I'm just trying to look at it from a juror's point of view.

 

[GeekyGirl]

If the jurors told the truth when they said they didn't know all the details, some knew nothing about the case, and they really can be unbiased when it comes to deliberations I believe the defense has created reasonable doubt that some of the jurors could hang their opinion on.

That doesn't mean they will find her not guilty. I just think there might be a few jurors that need convincing but I do think the chance of a hung jury is higher after Baez's closing.

I want to stress I don't think Baez did a great job, I don't think Casey is innocent, I'm just trying to look at it from a juror's point of view.

I think you're right... I can't imagine what it must have been like in that room today. 33 days of absorbing all that information and not being able to discuss it? I'd go nuts.

 

[pinup]

I don't think people would be saying, "Poor thing, it must be MI" if ICA were a man. She can obviously function in society, and she's been examined by AT LEAST three MH professionals who were approved by her own DT. Even if--IF--she is a certifiable sociopath, that doesn't preclude her from standing trial and taking her punishment just like any other person. I have a strong suspicion that most murderers are sociopaths...do we vote to have mercy on them as well and send them to a MH clinic instead? No.

Somehow we, as a society, have gotten the erroneous idea that women, especially mothers, are more noble creatures than the rest of the population. As a mother myself, I can affirm that this is a myth. Mothers are no different than anyone else in their thoughts, emotions, and impulses and are just as capable of committing crimes, even when those involve filicide.

 

[ColdDayIn]

Hope I put this in the right thread...

I was wondering if the jury is aware, or will be made aware, that this new "GA did it/pool accident" theory/story was just told to the world as the now "truth" on the first day of trial....

Or are they supposed to assume that this was being floated around for awhile just as the Zanny and Jay Blanchard Park was?

I hope someone understands my question and can help me out here!



TIA

I think it is probably pretty clear to the jury that this is a recent story. The state talked alot about the Zanny thing and even how up until 6 wks before the trial CA thought Caylee might still be alive. I think just from hearing that about the 6wks, they can infer that something caused her to change her mind. Also, remember that most of the members of the jury, if not all, HAD heard about the case, just didn't know a bunch of details, and they all had likely only ever heard about Zanny. Also, there was the fact that they brought up that the accident theory had been brought up by CA in a jailhouse tape early on, and how YM was trying to offer up an accident in his questioning of ICA. I'm sure there's more examples, but I can't think of any more right now. HTH!