HI - Finley Boyle, 3, Dies After Root Canals, Honolulu, 2014

[Frigga]

Our children's dentist wants to put my son, who also happens to have Down syndrome, under anesthesia in her office to pull a couple of teeth for braces. I am beginning to rethink this, or at least think an oral surgeon may be the way to go. Sorry for the OT!

 

[Veidt]

This is really sad.

I'm not 100% prepared to blame the doctor. Sometimes cavities in young children can be serious, not only do they cause pain, but in the long run it would mess up her teeth even more. From what I understand, people may not think that baby teeth matter but they do, as they can affect adult teeth as well. I think it's strange that something went so wrong with this procedure.

I'm also not 100% prepared to blame the family. I find it strange that they let their child's teeth get so messed up to begin with, though.

Our pediatric dentist wanted to sedate dd#1 to do a couple fillings on her baby teeth. Actually go to the hospital, be admitted, and put under general anesthesia, while he did his work. Something just seemed wrong about that to me, and I flatly refused.

This doesn't seem so bad. General anaesthesia can actually be safer because at the hospital, you'd be required to have an anaesthesiologist around and after the procedure she'd be closely monitored. Yes, general has risks, but in some cases it sounds safer than pumping the patient full of anaesthesia on the go and sending them home again.

From what I know, general anaesthesia is often recommended in cases where procedures may be complicated for some reason. If your daughter was very young this may have been the case, to make the experience less scary and painful for her, and keep her still.

:twocents:

 

[Steft50]

I agree! Pull the baby teeth! —Maybe it does affect future dentition.
I hate the dentist!
I have since I was 7! I had to have my baby teeth pulled because they didn't fall out.
I got nitrous... not NOC-TEC or whatever these dentists use today!
OMG. I am having 21 teeth removed Thursday! — I am not even allowing nitrous...
Ok! That's another thread I'm not gonna start!
Jahi and this baby have me totally freaked out.
I am not a "baby".
Stuff like this breeds panic IMO...
JMO- no comments about me please! This is about a baby possibly being overdosed! IMO Jahi's doctors are not at fault. This dentist we just don't know!
Every medical-dental procedure carries a risk PERIOD.
Just wanted to make my point.


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BBM

Ick!! I had 15 removed and no drugs beyond numbing agent. It actually wasn't to bad till I got up the next morning to discover I don't do the pain drugs they gave me very well.....actually puked them up and almost choked myself because the action of vomiting brought the denture up blocking my mouth opening! Overall though the pain I had been in before the removals was so bad that most of the pain afterwards was less and there for more of a relief and a discomfort than anything worse. Good Luck with yours!

 

[jjenny]

I was taken to the dentist every six months for checking and cleaning when I was a child. Never a cavity, never a criticism of my dental hygiene. Then we moved. At age seven, I saw a new dentist who proceeded to identify cavities in my eight back teeth. All were filled. I never had another cavity. Subsequent dentists remarked on what huge fillings I had in my back teeth. The dentist who said that I had cavities eventually lost his license for malpractice. It never occurred to my parents that a dentist would lie in order to make money.

Exactly. I am an adult and had a bunch of feelings replaced by a dentist because like everybody else I just assumed that dentist won't do something not necessary. Now I am far from convinced I actually needed to have all these feelings replaced. I feel that most likely they could have lasted for a good while more.

 

[K_Z]

This is really sad.

I'm not 100% prepared to blame the doctor. Sometimes cavities in young children can be serious, not only do they cause pain, but in the long run it would mess up her teeth even more. From what I understand, people may not think that baby teeth matter but they do, as they can affect adult teeth as well. I think it's strange that something went so wrong with this procedure.

I'm also not 100% prepared to blame the family. I find it strange that they let their child's teeth get so messed up to begin with, though.




This doesn't seem so bad. General anaesthesia can actually be safer because at the hospital, you'd be required to have an anaesthesiologist around and after the procedure she'd be closely monitored. Yes, general has risks, but in some cases it sounds safer than pumping the patient full of anaesthesia on the go and sending them home again.

From what I know, general anaesthesia is often recommended in cases where procedures may be complicated for some reason. If your daughter was very young this may have been the case, to make the experience less scary and painful for her, and keep her still.

:twocents:

I am 100% prepared to blame the DDS dentist. We would NEVER do a multi hour painful procedure involving procedures in the AIRWAY of a 3 year old in a HOSPITAL using only sedation, and relying on the toddler patient to spontaneously breathe. This was a completely inappropriate case to do in an office environment, with only a dentist to manage BOTH the procedure, AND the airway in a VERY young pediatric patient, for MANY hours. And to make it worse, almost NO dental offices have nurses-- only dental techs.

This child did NOT have to die. IMO. This dentist should be hung out to dry. IMO. And should NEVER touch another child again. When the worst happened, all they could do was BLS, NOT ACLS. These are DENTISTS, not physicians.

I don't begin to understand why NO ONE could see this disaster in the making.

 

[Cailin Rua]

Before you blame the family to any degree, just remember that children can have hypoplastic enamel in their baby teeth which causes them to get cavities much more easily. My kids both have it and I promise you, they do get their teeth brushed and flossed and regular dental cleanings.

The child probably didn't need as much dental work as the dentist said; she probably sold them on it and the only thing they may have done "wrong" is trusting her too much.

 

[txsvicki]

My grandson had a filling and was given a cup of demerol to make him sleepy. I'd never have allowed any sedation other than that and a little gas, and was there asking how much and what milligram they were giving him, and watched the procedure through the glass window. It was very stressful, but he wouldn't stay still just for a numbing shot. It was my fault he got the cavity due to letting him drink soda pops and eat too much candy.

 

[K_Z]

Leading Orthodontist Calls On Hawaii Board Of Dental Examiners To Accept Liability In Finley Boyle Tragedy

Contrary to what its name implies, Dr. Lilly Geyer practiced at "Island Dentistry for Children," – Dr. Geyer is not a dental specialist nor do any pediatric dentists provide service there. Dr. Geyer, who has been charged with Boyle's death, did not complete the advanced education and accredited residency program required of those specialists licensed in pediatric dentistry. This specialization and licensure requires the successful completion of a full-time two-year postgraduate residency after exemplary performance in dental school. Accredited residency programs accept an extremely limited number of applicants and are highly competitive; thus, only the most qualified dental students and dentists are accepted.

Though the name of Dr. Geyer's practice misled parents into thinking she was an expert in treating children, she did not have even have the most basic monitoring equipment or emergency procedures required of specialists. From the accounts available, it appears that in her attempt to perform advanced dental procedures, she irresponsibly sedated innocent children with tragic results.

http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/2014/01/08/DC42832

Yup. The more I read about this tragedy, the more willing I am to hold Lilly Geyer, DDS, 1000% responsible for this fiasco.

Too bad she can't be charged criminally. IMO. The word incompetent does not even begin to scratch the surface of the folly, perpetuated by everyone ELSE in that practice, too. Put her in a cell with Conrad Murray for a few decades, IMO. They might have a lot to talk about.

:banghead:

 

[K_Z]

Dentist blamed for Kailua girl's death closes practice

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/24391027/dentist-blamed-for-kailua-girls-death-closes-practice

Well, that's a good start.

 

[K_Z]

State investigating dentist whose patient died
A lawyer for the parents of a deceased tot will file a wrongful death lawsuit

http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=239215181&id=239215181


Three-year-old dies after visit to dentist in Hawaii

Finley returned Dec. 3 for the procedure. She stopped breathing after receiving high doses of Demerol, hydroxyzine, chloral hydrate, and nitrous oxide, according to a lawsuit filed by her parents against Dr, Lilly Geyer at Island Dentistry for Children, the Honolulu Star-Advertiser reported.

"In this case, it's debatable whether any of that was necessary," Fried said. "There were so many places here where the errors could have been rectified, right up until the end, and Finley would be alive."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/three-year-old-dies-after-visit-to-dentist-in-hawaii/

 

[Herat]

Dentist blamed for Kailua girl's death closes practice

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/24391027/dentist-blamed-for-kailua-girls-death-closes-practice

Well, that's a good start.

Yeah, but it's a quickie move to try to protect assets. Expect her to declare bankruptcy soon.

This is a dirtball move on the dentist's part.

 

[Herat]

1. Wrongful death

2. Fraud (misrepresentation of credentials)

3. Possible fraud and dental malpractice in misrepresentation of necessity

I sure hope this dentist actually had malpractice insurance, so that the family has a chance of actually collecting a reasonable award, rather than trying to go after personal or business assets.

How long would all the work she proposed take? That's a helluva lot of unmonitored anesthesia/sedation for anyone, far less a small child

 

[K_Z]

1. Wrongful death

2. Fraud (misrepresentation of credentials)

3. Possible fraud and dental malpractice in misrepresentation of necessity

I sure hope this dentist actually had malpractice insurance, so that the family has a chance of actually collecting a reasonable award, rather than trying to go after personal or business assets.

How long would all the work she proposed take? That's a helluva lot of unmonitored anesthesia/sedation for anyone, far less a small child

BBM.

HOURS and HOURS. Attempting to keep a spontaneously breathing 3 yo with a mouthful of instruments deep enough to hold completely still and get all the procedures done (and that doesn't even address if all of the procedures were NECESSARY.)

Really? Demerol, vistaril, chloral hydrate, and nitrous?? For HOURS??? :banghead: How exactly is that better than a general anesthetic?? Those are ancient drugs, that take a ton of time to metabolize. And the accumulation of the Demerol metabolite normeperidine can itself cause seizures, especially in children. What. Were. They. THINKING????????

I am LIVID when I hear these horrific stories. Just LIVID.

If all these procedures were necessary, this child belonged in a surgery center, with a general anesthetic and an endotracheal tube, and a competent anesthesia professional to monitor it all.

I posted on the other page that my own child had a ton of dental work on arrival home from her international adoption. She had less work than this, and the dental and oral surgery portion was 3-4 hours, and then she had a 2 hour MRI on top of that, all under one general anesthetic. (Which mom had to insist during the scheduling process weeks before, to spare her a second anesthetic.)

A few years back I did a bunch of cases for developmentally disabled teens and adults who lived in group homes. Medicaid would pay for general anesthesia for dental and other procedures about once every 3-5 years for each person. We'd bring them in, dentists and oral surgeons would work for a few hours, cleanings, fillings, etc. Women would also have the primary care doc come in and do PAP smears and gyn exams, lab draws, and we did colonoscopies for a bunch, also. Kind of a "rotate the tires and change the oil" conglomeration of procedures under general anesthesia. Relatively easy anesthetics, but some cases would go 4-6 hours. It really is the most humane and SAFE way to do all that, in a patient who is either too young, or not able to cooperate and understand.

I want to add that it really infuriates me that the STOOPID media is comparing this case to Jahi McMath. these 2 cases are NOTHING alike. Just nothing alike. It is irresponsible to use these 2 cases together in discussions of brain death, IMO.

 

[Frigga]

BBM.

HOURS and HOURS. Attempting to keep a spontaneously breathing 3 yo with a mouthful of instruments deep enough to hold completely still and get all the procedures done (and that doesn't even address if all of the procedures were NECESSARY.)

Really? Demerol, vistaril, chloral hydrate, and nitrous?? For HOURS??? :banghead: How exactly is that better than a general anesthetic?? Those are ancient drugs, that take a ton of time to metabolize. And the accumulation of the Demerol metabolite normeperidine can itself cause seizures, especially in children. What. Were. They. THINKING????????

I am LIVID when I hear these horrific stories. Just LIVID.

If all these procedures were necessary, this child belonged in a surgery center, with a general anesthetic and an endotracheal tube, and a competent anesthesia professional to monitor it all.

I posted on the other page that my own child had a ton of dental work on arrival home from her international adoption. She had less work than this, and the dental and oral surgery portion was 3-4 hours, and then she had a 2 hour MRI on top of that, all under one general anesthetic. (Which mom had to insist during the scheduling process weeks before, to spare her a second anesthetic.)

A few years back I did a bunch of cases for developmentally disabled teens and adults who lived in group homes. Medicaid would pay for general anesthesia for dental and other procedures about once every 3-5 years for each person. We'd bring them in, dentists and oral surgeons would work for a few hours, cleanings, fillings, etc. Women would also have the primary care doc come in and do PAP smears and gyn exams, lab draws, and we did colonoscopies for a bunch, also. Kind of a "rotate the tires and change the oil" conglomeration of procedures under general anesthesia. Relatively easy anesthetics, but some cases would go 4-6 hours. It really is the most humane and SAFE way to do all that, in a patient who is either too young, or not able to cooperate and understand.

I want to add that it really infuriates me that the STOOPID media is comparing this case to Jahi McMath. these 2 cases are NOTHING alike. Just nothing alike. It is irresponsible to use these 2 cases together in discussions of brain death, IMO.

Thanks KZ... for all you do here, there and everywhere! BBM- you have officially won my heart. Many blessings to you and yours! Justice for little Finley, now an angel- way too soon!

 

[Herat]

I am LIVID when I hear these horrific stories. Just LIVID.

Second on the LIVID.

Was this little child even NPO?

Any protection for that little teeny airway?

Whomever the dental licensing board of Hawaii is, they have an obligation to the public to investigate how widespread this sort of patently dangerous practice is, both in this dentist's practice and in other "pediatric" practices.

Hawaiian residents need to get on top of the licensing board to regulate this kind of practice.

Incompetence, intentional disregard for basic resuscitation practice, probably misrepresentation of dental necessity have no place in safe dental care of children.

 

[Herat]

It is also incumbent on the Hawaiian Board of Dentistry and whatever Pharmacy regulating agency they have to review the use of medications in that practice.

Practices that try to economize or misrepresent often also try to take shortcuts in proper handling of medications. Multiple entry into single-use vials, use of outdated medications, etc.

 

[LinasK]

BBM.

I want to add that it really infuriates me that the STOOPID media is comparing this case to Jahi McMath. these 2 cases are NOTHING alike. Just nothing alike. It is irresponsible to use these 2 cases together in discussions of brain death, IMO.

Actually, I see alot of comparison in the incompetence of care. I predict that Children's Hospital of Oakland will be hit with a big fat malpractice case and will lose!!

 

[Veidt]

I am 100% prepared to blame the DDS dentist. We would NEVER do a multi hour painful procedure involving procedures in the AIRWAY of a 3 year old in a HOSPITAL using only sedation, and relying on the toddler patient to spontaneously breathe. This was a completely inappropriate case to do in an office environment, with only a dentist to manage BOTH the procedure, AND the airway in a VERY young pediatric patient, for MANY hours. And to make it worse, almost NO dental offices have nurses-- only dental techs.

This child did NOT have to die. IMO. This dentist should be hung out to dry. IMO. And should NEVER touch another child again. When the worst happened, all they could do was BLS, NOT ACLS. These are DENTISTS, not physicians.

I don't begin to understand why NO ONE could see this disaster in the making.

I'm not a medical professional and as I said - even with my lack of knowledge I find it strange that everything went so wrong. A health professional of any kind should be able to minimize the risks and I don't believe this was done here.

What I said about not blaming the doctor 100% was regarding whether the root canals were necessary or not.

From my perspective which is not a professional one, while I can understand that a root canal in a young child could be necessary, I don't agree that the way it was done in this case was safe.

What I mentioned about the procedure being done in a hospital was exactly that, if the case had been directed to a hospital then other professionals such as anesthesiologists would be able to give their qualified assessment on what would be safe or not, and if such a procedure went ahead then there would be more support before, during, and after the surgery. A dentist's office is not the place to do it IMO.

 

[Nova]

My grandson had a filling and was given a cup of demerol to make him sleepy. I'd never have allowed any sedation other than that and a little gas, and was there asking how much and what milligram they were giving him, and watched the procedure through the glass window. It was very stressful, but he wouldn't stay still just for a numbing shot. It was my fault he got the cavity due to letting him drink soda pops and eat too much candy.

Give yourself a break, Vicki. Lots of things cause cavities. I had dozens as a child from high fevers and I was never allowed to eat or drink a lot of sweets.

 

[gia2]

Before you blame the family to any degree, just remember that children can have hypoplastic enamel in their baby teeth which causes them to get cavities much more easily. My kids both have it and I promise you, they do get their teeth brushed and flossed and regular dental cleanings.

Caries also causes a lot of kids to get cavities and bad teeth very young, even when hygeine is good and sugar consumption low.