How did the McCanns dispose of the body - how did they do it ?

[Clutchbag]

I know, I just hope NSY have the remit

 

[Chewy]

So the open door is the patio door, its up stairs so that idea is a non starter.
Gerry McCann apparently checked the children and saw Madeleine, but less than 5 minutes later, Madeleine is seen being carried by the abductor, how does the abductor get in to the apartment, with the linen cart/stroller hide it so GM doesnt see it while he is doing his check and toilet visit and then leave it where?

Unless the abductor was already in the apartment when GM was doing his check, if the Jane Tanner sighting is to be believed, the abductor had to get in through the front door, with GM standing outside the apartment talking to a friend and then leave the same way, but remembering to shut the front door, even though he was carrying a child across both his arms, leave no trace whatsoever, then boldly walk across a public road in front of one the parents friends (and indeed GM himself).

Then the dogs alert to 13 locations, every one involving the McCanns, hardly a monor flaw in my opinion.

You don't know that he was carrying a child across both arms at all. It could have been two people for all we know. It's a hotel room not a persons private home.

A kid sleeping on a bed is the easiest thing in the world to kidnap. Especially a little child.

And the McCann's themselves could have set up the timeline of the kidnapping by accident. For example if the kidnapper was watching their routine coming back and forth from the table to the room he or she could have timed it in accordance with that.

IOW only entering the room right after the parent left to go back to the TAPAS. Ex they watch to see them coming back to the room. If only one comes back they know they are not done with dinner.

They watch wait for him to leave and as soon as he's out of site pop into the room and pick up the kid and leave within minutes.

You know, time yourself doing something. Often when I have to leave I'll try to fit in a few chores while I'm getting ready to go. So for example spraying down the tub with cleaner and cleaning the toilet and wiping up the sink takes about 2 minutes.

Take a pillow and put a heavy book in it as well. Go from the front door of your house all the way to the back door. Pick up the pillow at the back door and walk all the way back to the front and out.

Now tell me what evidence you left and how long it took you.

 

[Tink]

Your assumption is that the child won't wake up and scream and fight to get away. Some kids are relatively heavy sleepers (apparently the twins fell into that category since they didn't wake up even with a crowd of people around) but if you were a stranger trying to kidnap a child, you couldn't count on that. Lots of kids wake up very easily if you try to pick them up or move them, and even those who are deep sleepers will wake up if you happen to get them during periods of lighter sleep. And then you've got a whole different story - a screaming, fighting child who is going to attract plenty of attention.

Tink

 

[SapphireSteel]

Your assumption is that the child won't wake up and scream and fight to get away. Some kids are relatively heavy sleepers (apparently the twins fell into that category since they didn't wake up even with a crowd of people around) but if you were a stranger trying to kidnap a child, you couldn't count on that. Lots of kids wake up very easily if you try to pick them up or move them, and even those who are deep sleepers will wake up if you happen to get them during periods of lighter sleep. And then you've got a whole different story - a screaming, fighting child who is going to attract plenty of attention.

Tink

Gerry pondered if the twins had been drugged by the "abductor".

I know, crazy right?

Not only does someone sneak into your holiday home to steal your children, he also has the foresight to bring along a drug with him, which he expertly and painlessly administered to already sleeping children.

Then I suppose he filed his nails or something while he waited for the drug to take effect.

Of course during all this, Gerry took his toilet break, so the abductor must've been filing his nails in the closet for Gerry not to see him.

:waitasec:

I believe its fairly certain the twins at least were drugged, because they didn't wake up once, through all the kerfuffle, nor being transported to another bed in another apartment.

Kate was seen checking their breathing.

 

[Salem]

Please search for the Drs. Gaspars' statements...very enlightening.

IMO

If you are going to recommend statements and refer to them, you need to link them please. If you have tried to link them and the link came up with asteriks, that means the link is not allowed here.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[Chewy]

Your assumption is that the child won't wake up and scream and fight to get away. Some kids are relatively heavy sleepers (apparently the twins fell into that category since they didn't wake up even with a crowd of people around) but if you were a stranger trying to kidnap a child, you couldn't count on that. Lots of kids wake up very easily if you try to pick them up or move them, and even those who are deep sleepers will wake up if you happen to get them during periods of lighter sleep. And then you've got a whole different story - a screaming, fighting child who is going to attract plenty of attention.

Tink

They drugged the kids. I'm sure of that. I wonder if the abductor drugged her as well and killed her by accident. But you really think someone is going to try to abduct a kid in the middle of a resort and not drug the kid? Of course they would drug her.

 

[Tink]

Okay, but if you are going to assume the abductor drugged Madeleine (and I guess the twins as well) you've added a whole new wrinkle to this. How does the abductor give the drugs? Wake her up and ask her to swallow some medicine? Inject them? (Now THAT would wake up a child in a hurry!) Most drugs take time to have an effect - meanwhile, you have a screaming and upset child to deal with. You've added more risk (of the child waking while you were attempting to drug her, of the drug not working properly, of the child screaming while you wait for the drug to take effect) and more time.

And why didn't the McCanns have the twins promptly tested for drugs, given that they appeared to sleep through all the goings-on after Madeleine's disappearance?

Tink

 

[fabgod]

You don't know that he was carrying a child across both arms at all. It could have been two people for all we know. It's a hotel room not a persons private home.

A kid sleeping on a bed is the easiest thing in the world to kidnap. Especially a little child.

And the McCann's themselves could have set up the timeline of the kidnapping by accident. For example if the kidnapper was watching their routine coming back and forth from the table to the room he or she could have timed it in accordance with that.

IOW only entering the room right after the parent left to go back to the TAPAS. Ex they watch to see them coming back to the room. If only one comes back they know they are not done with dinner.

They watch wait for him to leave and as soon as he's out of site pop into the room and pick up the kid and leave within minutes.

You know, time yourself doing something. Often when I have to leave I'll try to fit in a few chores while I'm getting ready to go. So for example spraying down the tub with cleaner and cleaning the toilet and wiping up the sink takes about 2 minutes.

Take a pillow and put a heavy book in it as well. Go from the front door of your house all the way to the back door. Pick up the pillow at the back door and walk all the way back to the front and out.

Now tell me what evidence you left and how long it took you.

Without the JT statement on seeing the mythical abductor, there is no abduction.
So therefore using JTs description of the way the alleged abductor was carrying the child that was dressed the same as Madeleine, he was carrying her across both his arms, so while I may not know how the alleged abductor carried the child, the only supposed witness does, does that make it any clearer for you?

Routine of the parents? what routine? it was changing as it was coming out of their mouths lol!

Finally, by your comments. you believe there was an abductor, or two, they may have drugged the children, obviously then according to your post, Jane Tanners sighting doesnt count? because if it did, the abductor would have had to have been in the room while Gerry McCann was in the apartment, and as you rightly said, it isnt a private home, its an apartment so it was very small, pretty much impossible for him not to have ssen the "abductor" who was so good that he left no signs at all, but then got spotted ambling across the street in front of the father and a close friend -well planned, really well planned abduction lol

 

[Clutchbag]

Chewy, just for info, it was NOT a room in a hotel. the family had rented an apartment which is exactly a private residence.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

 

[Clutchbag]

Okay, but if you are going to assume the abductor drugged Madeleine (and I guess the twins as well) you've added a whole new wrinkle to this. How does the abductor give the drugs? Wake her up and ask her to swallow some medicine? Inject them? (Now THAT would wake up a child in a hurry!) Most drugs take time to have an effect - meanwhile, you have a screaming and upset child to deal with. You've added more risk (of the child waking while you were attempting to drug her, of the drug not working properly, of the child screaming while you wait for the drug to take effect) and more time.

And why didn't the McCanns have the twins promptly tested for drugs, given that they appeared to sleep through all the goings-on after Madeleine's disappearance?

Tink

Yes, why not get them tested, it may have led to a possible clue if substance was identified, and seeing as they thought they might be since they asked the british police two days later to ask the portuguese police if there was any evidence that showed drugs were used, you would think they would ask for tests or take them themselves to a hospital

Instead we have them getting private tests four months later, wierd

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yes, why not get them tested, it may have led to a possible clue if substance was identified, and seeing as they thought they might be since they asked the british police two days later to ask the portuguese police if there was any evidence that showed drugs were used, you would think they would ask for tests or take them themselves to a hospital

Instead we have them getting private tests four months later, wierd

We also have the twins getting a hair cut just after Madeleine's disappearance.

No one saved any hair of course, not even the suspicious father.

So you think your kids were drugged, Gerry, but did not submit them for immediate hospitalisation or testing, or keep any hair in case it was ever needed.

Yup. Whatever you say Gerry.

:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

The dogs don't bother me because there are flaws to using dogs.


Also (and this speaks to the JBR case as well) I think people over estimate what it takes to have a person who is intent on not being noticed get into a house or a room. It is much easier than people think. For every burglary out there where an unprofessional comes in and tears the place apart there's another where someone "cases the joint" and gets in and out without any detection.

What evidence of an abductor would be needed to walk into a room with an opened door and pick up a child from the bed who is knocked out and walk out the door. Easy. Bring a stroller or linen cart with you, even easier.

So...who "knocked them out"?

In your theory?

The float in float out predator?

The "stolen linen cart" is just hysterical, for a start off they weren't serviced apartments, secondly those things are noisy, thirdly, the apartment was up some stairs so how would he have dragged a heavy linen cart around a quiet resort at 10pm without being heard?

:waitasec:

 

[Clutchbag]

We also have the twins getting a hair cut just after Madeleine's disappearance.

No one saved any hair of course, not even the suspicious father.

So you think your kids were drugged, Gerry, but did not submit them for immediate hospitalisation or testing, or keep any hair in case it was ever needed.

Yup. Whatever you say Gerry.

:banghead:

they were negligent as doctors as they were as parents

KM checking their twins were breathing but NOT taking them to hospital bizarre

their daughter alledgedly was taken they should have had those non waking twins in a hospital pdq

 

[SapphireSteel]

they were negligent as doctors as they were as parents

KM checking their twins were breathing but NOT taking them to hospital bizarre

their daughter alledgedly was taken they should have had those non waking twins in a hospital pdq

Excellent point.

But then, of course, if you apply the idea that they KNEW the twins had not been drugged by an abductor, it explains their negligence in this regard.

Kind of like when the Ramseys ignored the ransom demand time limit for Jonbenet. They KNEW that her head wasn't going to be cut off if they didn't pay up by 10am.

:furious:

 

[Tink]

One problem with the theory that the abductor just waited until the parent doing the checking left the apartment and then took Madeleine is that during his last visit Gerry didn't really leave. He hung around near the apartment talking to his friend. So if the abductor had walked past him (not realizing that he was nearby) - or if one of the children had woken up and cried out, he would have been caught. A very extreme risk to take. Their schedule was certainly not regular enough to rely on in planning a kidnapping.

If it was one of the parents, on the other hand, I see more opportunities. They could have taken Madeleine to the ocean (where I think her body is) or I suppose another location before they ever went down to dinner. One parent could have taken her during one of their checks.

It seems clear to me that the opportunity is there.

So then the next thing I look at is the behaviour of the parents, and that DEFINITELY raises my suspicions.

Tink

 

[SapphireSteel]

One problem with the theory that the abductor just waited until the parent doing the checking left the apartment and then took Madeleine is that during his last visit Gerry didn't really leave. He hung around near the apartment talking to his friend. So if the abductor had walked past him (not realizing that he was nearby) - or if one of the children had woken up and cried out, he would have been caught. A very extreme risk to take. Their schedule was certainly not regular enough to rely on in planning a kidnapping.

If it was one of the parents, on the other hand, I see more opportunities. They could have taken Madeleine to the ocean (where I think her body is) or I suppose another location before they ever went down to dinner. One parent could have taken her during one of their checks.

It seems clear to me that the opportunity is there.

So then the next thing I look at is the behaviour of the parents, and that DEFINITELY raises my suspicions.

Tink

One thing many of these McCann supporters overlook/ignore, is just how tiny and quiet and secluded PDL is.

At that time of the night, any vehicle starting up is going to be heard.

None were.

Locals know every car in town and can spot a strange car for miles, and wonder whose driving it.

No one did.

Jez Wilkins and Gerry McCann stood in a very small, narrow, quiet, deserted street chatting.

Tanner claims she walked straight past them.

Tanner claims she saw the "abductor" also walk straight past them, with Madeleine in her arms.

Not only did Jez and Gerry not see the "abductor", they also DID NOT SEE TANNER.

This is impossible. Literally, impossible.

 

[scandi]

One thing many of these McCann supporters overlook/ignore, is just how tiny and quiet and secluded PDL is.

At that time of the night, any vehicle starting up is going to be heard.

None were.

Locals know every car in town and can spot a strange car for miles, and wonder whose driving it.

No one did.

Jez Wilkins and Gerry McCann stood in a very small, narrow, quiet, deserted street chatting.

Tanner claims she walked straight past them.

Tanner claims she saw the "abductor" also walk straight past them, with Madeleine in her arms.

Not only did Jez and Gerry not see the "abductor", they also DID NOT SEE TANNER.

This is impossible. Literally, impossible.

Yes, that is what I remember too, that Gerry was out and about the streets soon after she went missing. I was the Mod of an English MM forum at the time and we had a poster who happened to be in a bar where a man walked in that she later recognized as Gerry McCann. It was timely and we did believe her ;} He had a quick drink and talked to the bartender, not staying long as I remember - not sure after all this time.

 

[gitana1]

The majority of the posters on this forum as far as I can see feel that the mccanns were complicit in their daughters disappearance either through disposal and cover up to pre planned murder .

I have never beleived that they were complicit because I could never for the life of me see how they could have disposed of the body to such a manner in such a time slot that nothing was ever traced - nothing. T

When the PJ did begin to search in earnest they used hundreds of police men = dozens of blood hounds and tracker dogs - but not a trace .

So how did they do it? what are the theories and timeline able to either hide a body locally and then transfer the body in the hire car weeks later ( if we are being consistent with the cadaver dog findings ) or dispose of it that evening to such an extent that Gerry and Kate were able to carry out the charade of the abduction.

Bodies dont just dissapear - especialy hidden ones - they usually do eventualy get discovered . Interested to hear what people think

I do not believe they harmed their daughter or disposed of her body. They act nothing like the guilty spouses or parents of the missing or murdered who vow to search forever for the killers and end up on golf courses.

Despite heavy criticism, the family has remained in the public eye, seeking their daughter, seeking answers and seeking help. :moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I do not believe they harmed their daughter or disposed of her body. They act nothing like the guilty spouses or parents of the missing or murdered who vow to search forever for the killers and end up on golf courses.

Despite heavy criticism, the family has remained in the public eye, seeking their daughter, seeking answers and seeking help. :moo:

Seeking donations more like.

How do you explain that the McCann never once physically looked for their daughter?

How do you explain the McCann leaving Portugal to visit the Pope (and several other important folk), when their daughter may have been discovered at any moment, injured and crying for her mummy?

How do you explain the McCann leaving their twins alone in the room their sister had just been "abducted" from?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Back on topic -

where/how did they hide her?

We know the alarm was called very late at night, and most of the searchers had gone home by 2am.

By that fact alone, it can hardly have been a thorough search.

I do wonder though...how many people looked up^?

If I wished to hide a body very quickly, I would place it up high somewhere.

Being a resort, the accommodations would probably all have had fire escapes, possibly ladders attached to the building too, for maintenance reasons if nothing else.

A quick scoot up one of those...no one's going to look on a rooftop for a missing child...