I might believe them except....

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I might disbelieve them if there was any "evidence" not rumour, that they had done anything other than what they told the PJ.

How many active missing children cases are there, do you suppose, that law enforcement display actual "evidence" against a suspect for the public to view?

 

[Texana]

April, that brings to mind my recurring question: Why do you automatically believe them?

You don't know the McCanns. You don't know anything more about them, really, than that they look like a nice family from the outside.

Does that mean that what they say gets an automatic pass to be believed?

After all, they did admit to leaving their children alone, in a foreign resort apartment, for at least two nights.

That's all you know about them.

If you say you don't' "disbelieve them" then by inference, you DO believe them.

 

[teacherbees]

Exactly, Texana. The heart of this case is that two educated parents who should've known better left their three babies alone night after night while they partied with friends. They left the doors unlocked thereby making it easy for Madeleine to have been abducted by a pedo ring, wandered away and been picked up by most anyone or suffered an injury that was either fatal or so devastating that her parents felt the need to cover it. up.

The fact that they left their children alone and feel little remorse about their actions is enough to raise a red flag to me.

Add to that the KNOWN lies they have told and I just can't bring myself to believe much of anything they say.

 

[april4sky]

April, that brings to mind my recurring question: Why do you automatically believe them?

You don't know the McCanns. You don't know anything more about them, really, than that they look like a nice family from the outside.

Does that mean that what they say gets an automatic pass to be believed?

After all, they did admit to leaving their children alone, in a foreign resort apartment, for at least two nights.

That's all you know about them.

If you say you don't' "disbelieve them" then by inference, you DO believe them.

Texana none of us "know" the McCanns.
And yes I do believe them because though I have heard a lot of malicious rumours/smears about them I have seen no "evidence" that they did anything other than what they have openly told the PJ right from the start of this tragedy.

By their own admission we know they left the children while they dined at the Tapas....And at no time did they try to hide this fact.

Thats all any of us know about them.....but thats a far cry from accusing them of killing their own child whether by accident or not IMO.

If they had killed Madeleine I think they would have come up with a better story than one that left them open to such critisism!
Much more likely for them to have said Madeleine was taken while they slept. IMO

Texana my recurring question is why people who think the McCanns guilty choose to overlook the things we know the PJ has done. A small part being the leaks/smears known to have come from them. :waitasec:

I would think this should be important to all of us if we want the real truth.

 

[gemini666]

I've been thinking about the cadaver dogs and their scenting death on Kate's jeans. She said (I read somewhere) that she had contact with 6 dead patients in the week prior to their holiday.
Has any investigator looked into just who these 'dead' patients were?
It shouldn't be too difficult to find out, after all, she was only a part time GP .
I also would have washed my jeans before going away, but then, I'm funny like that!

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Texana none of us "know" the McCanns.
And yes I do believe them because though I have heard a lot of malicious rumours/smears about them I have seen no "evidence" that they did anything other than what they have openly told the PJ right from the start of this tragedy.

By their own admission we know they left the children while they dined at the Tapas....And at no time did they try to hide this fact.

Thats all any of us know about them.....but thats a far cry from accusing them of killing their own child whether by accident or not IMO.

If they had killed Madeleine I think they would have come up with a better story than one that left them open to such critisism!
Much more likely for them to have said Madeleine was taken while they slept. IMO

Texana my recurring question is why people who think the McCanns guilty choose to overlook the things we know the PJ has done. A small part being the leaks/smears known to have come from them. :waitasec:

I would think this should be important to all of us if we want the real truth.

HOW DO YO KNOW THIS? I've questioned this a few times, and you never have a definite answer. Did the PJ publicly ADMIT to leaking info.? Was there a press conference that I missed? Did you hear this from the mouth of a Police spokesperson? Maybe you did, but I have yet to see a confession from the PJ. Did this come from a "newspaper"? How do you know the PJ leaked any info? How do you know it's true and not rumor?

 

[colomom]

I've been thinking about the cadaver dogs and their scenting death on Kate's jeans. She said (I read somewhere) that she had contact with 6 dead patients in the week prior to their holiday.
Has any investigator looked into just who these 'dead' patients were?
It shouldn't be too difficult to find out, after all, she was only a part time GP .
I also would have washed my jeans before going away, but then, I'm funny like that!

There has never been anything "officially" confirming the supposed visits with 6 dead patients. I have seen written detail that states that it would be extremely unusual for a GP who only works part-time to have come in contact with that many cadavers. I have seen written information from medical "sources" that stated most attending physicians would have worn gowns, caps and gloves which would have protected them from the type of contact necessary to leave cadaver odor such as what has been reported to have been detected by Eddie (the wonder dog). I also saw an interview with an unnamed nurse that claimed there was no way KM was exposed to any dead bodies. Period.

Plus, it has been reported that there was cadaver odor detected on Cuddle Cat, the Scenic keys, KM's bible, in the living room and in the parent's bedroom.

And the latest....cadaver odor on Madeleine's clothes as well....

Poor Madeleine.

 

[SewingDeb]

Madeleine McCann Detective Plans 'Explosive' Book About Case, Believes Toddler Is Dead

The former Portuguese detective in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann plans to publish an "explosive" book on the case in which he asserts the British toddler is dead, among other claims, London's Daily Mail reported.

Goncalo Amaral, 48, has finished writing "True Lies," which he intends to publish once a judge lifts a gag order in the case.

Amaral left the police force Monday night after 28 years as an officer, according to the Mail. He said he quit the force to get back his "freedom of speech."


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,376691,00.html

 

[Texana]

I'm very much interested in reading his book!

 

[april4sky]

HOW DO YO KNOW THIS? I've questioned this a few times, and you never have a definite answer. Did the PJ publicly ADMIT to leaking info.? Was there a press conference that I missed? Did you hear this from the mouth of a Police spokesperson? Maybe you did, but I have yet to see a confession from the PJ. Did this come from a "newspaper"? How do you know the PJ leaked any info? How do you know it's true and not rumor?

IW when have you asked me this question before?
And the answer to the above highlight is from the National Director of the PJ Alipio Ribeiro.

(IW if you switch the PJ for the McCanns into your post. :waitasec: It's very interesting...Try it!!)

As for "leaks," here's part of just a couple of posts for you from the Media threads.
****
Media thread 176

Madeleine McCann: Police cheif breaks silence
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...-mostviewedbox
He has complained that while fellow officers were leaking information illegally — Portugal has strict secrecy laws — the same officers would instruct him to deny the stories when printed. The problem for Sousa was that the denials rarely got into the media.

The result has been endless column inches slandering the McCanns. ''Some Portuguese journalists were fairly convinced the so-called evidence passed on to them by police was nowhere near as concrete as their sources suggested," says Jose Lugios, a freelance reporter based in the Algarve.

Such lax practice has shocked even the country's politicians. ''The leaks to the press of some details that are supposed to be classified have been used as an easy way to manipulate and shape public opinion," says Francisco Louçã, leader of a Portuguese opposition party.
*****
Also Post 126 in the Portuguese Press thread...check out the last two paragraphs!!

Quotes are from the National Director of the PJ Alipio Ribeiro he admits to "some information leaks in this case that has been hugely exposed in the media" .....his words!!

He also talks about the loyal and respectful relationship between the British and Portuguese police and assures the British have never interfered!! ****

I left the last paragraph in because the British police have also been smeared!
**********
IW, If the latest batch of leaks regarding the final report is true..."and the secrecy laws are still in place"...Who do you think leaked it?

And just as important Why?

Damage control....The last thing they want is for their incompetance to become the focus. :waitasec: So they are busy still manipulating and shaping public opinion. IMO

 

[Shazza]

Such lax practice has shocked even the country's politicians. ''The leaks to the press of some details that are supposed to be classified have been used as an easy way to manipulate and shape public opinion," says Francisco Louçã, leader of a Portuguese opposition party.
*****


Quotes are from the National Director of the PJ Alipio Ribeiro he admits to "some information leaks in this case that has been hugely exposed in the media" .....his words!!



Hi April,

Whilst I have read some quotes in your last post that say the police leaked information which I am not disagreeing with, the two bolded above that I have copied here do not say who leaked the information. It could have just been the media trying to sell their papers, the McCanns to sway the spotlight away from them. There just seems to me that there have been leaked information and smears coming from anyone and everybody not just the PJ.

 

[colomom]

I, for one, am happy that there have been "leaks", no matter where they came from. Some things that I have read suggest a cover-up of an incredible nature.

Without the "leaks" that cover-up may have succeeded in silencing truth and justice.

All at the expense of a 3 year old baby girl.

This is ONLY my opinion.

 

[Barnaby]

I, for one, am happy that there have been "leaks", no matter where they came from. Some things that I have read suggest a cover-up of an incredible nature.

Without the "leaks" that cover-up may have succeeded in silencing truth and justice.

All at the expense of a 3 year old baby girl.

This is ONLY my opinion.

Agreed!

 

[april4sky]

Such lax practice has shocked even the country's politicians. ''The leaks to the press of some details that are supposed to be classified have been used as an easy way to manipulate and shape public opinion," says Francisco Louçã, leader of a Portuguese opposition party.
*****


Quotes are from the National Director of the PJ Alipio Ribeiro he admits to "some information leaks in this case that has been hugely exposed in the media" .....his words!!



Hi April,

Whilst I have read some quotes in your last post that say the police leaked information which I am not disagreeing with, the two bolded above that I have copied here do not say who leaked the information. It could have just been the media trying to sell their papers, the McCanns to sway the spotlight away from them. There just seems to me that there have been leaked information and smears coming from anyone and everybody not just the PJ.

Hi Shazza,

It's no secret...as the Director of the PJ Alipio Ribiro was admitting to "information" leaks in his quote. And the Press had to get them to run with them.
Which we know they eagerly did.

And as the leaks were damaging to the McCanns I doubt they were smearing themselves.

Shazza as I also asked....
If the latest leak regarding the final report is true..."and the secrecy laws are still in place"...
Who do you think has leaked it?
And Why?

 

[april4sky]

I, for one, am happy that there have been "leaks", no matter where they came from. Some things that I have read suggest a cover-up of an incredible nature.

Without the "leaks" that cover-up may have succeeded in silencing truth and justice.

All at the expense of a 3 year old baby girl.

This is ONLY my opinion.

This would depend if the "leaks" are true surely.
And suggests says it all IMO.

 

[Tony Bennett]

april4sky wrote: "This would depend if the 'leaks' are true surely. And suggests says it all IMO".

REPLY: Of course, one of the most powerful 'leaks' in the whole case was the news of where the cadaver dogs, Eddie and Keela, had found the scent of cadaverine, the 'smell of death'.

Now, that leak might have been true, or false.

But we then had a flurry of reactions from the McCanns.

Just a reminder here of some of them:

---------------------

QUOTE

The McCanns offered many different explanations in response to the forensic findings of blood, DNA, and cadaverine smell, including these six examples:

(a) 'I took Cuddle Cat to work - that’s why the smell of death is on Cuddle Cat'.
(b) 'I dealt with 6 corpses in the last fortnight at work, that’s why the smell of death is on my clothes'.
c) 'We’ll get on to lawyers in Ireland/America who say these cadaver dogs’ evidence is useless'.
(d) 'The DNA was the children’s dirty nappies in the boot'.
(e) 'The ‘smell of death’ might have been rotting meat that Gerry was taking to the dump'.
(f) 'The blood in the flat (found underneath the tiles in the children’s bedroom) might have been from Madeleine grazing her leg as she climbed the steps on the plane and stumbled'.

UNQUOTE

These utterly implausible explanations are some of the greatest and most revealing FACTS of the case

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[colomom]

More on Cadaver Dogs:

From X, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.


====================

The carpet square that was kept under the corpse for 10 minutes was reliably "sniffed out" by the dogs 65 days after that 10 minute exposure. (These carpet squares never actually came into contact with the corpse, as it was fully clothed.)

Reference:
Cadaver dogs--a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=f92324578ace13b8c3c1f265b88b6158

========

SUMMARY:

A carpet square left in contact with the clothing of a recent corpse (less than 3 hours old) for as little as 10 minutes can be reliably detected by cadaver dogs at least 65 days afterwards.

==============

Also, there is lots of research about (live) human odor scents. They remain perceptible to dogs for many months. One example:

G.A.A. Schoon (Netherlands National Police Agency and Leiden University) investigated how the age of odor trace evidence affects the performance of Dutch and German scent identification dogs. Although the dogs performed faultlessly in matching odors collected on the same day, their performance level dropped when presented with scent evidence stored for two weeks. After this initial drop, aging did not significantly diminish the dogs’ performance even with scent evidence aged up to six months.

 

[scandi]

More on Cadaver Dogs:

From X, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...uth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.


====================

The carpet square that was kept under the corpse for 10 minutes was reliably "sniffed out" by the dogs 65 days after that 10 minute exposure. (These carpet squares never actually came into contact with the corpse, as it was fully clothed.)

Reference:
Cadaver dogs--a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=f92324578ace13b8c3c1f265b88b6158

========

SUMMARY:

A carpet square left in contact with the clothing of a recent corpse (less than 3 hours old) for as little as 10 minutes can be reliably detected by cadaver dogs at least 65 days afterwards.

==============

Also, there is lots of research about (live) human odor scents. They remain perceptible to dogs for many months. One example:

G.A.A. Schoon (Netherlands National Police Agency and Leiden University) investigated how the age of odor trace evidence affects the performance of Dutch and German scent identification dogs. Although the dogs performed faultlessly in matching odors collected on the same day, their performance level dropped when presented with scent evidence stored for two weeks. After this initial drop, aging did not significantly diminish the dogs’ performance even with scent evidence aged up to six months.

Good Morning Colomom ;}

I so agree with you about the dogs, and have also tried to research the subject. I am glad you found what you have posted here, as things like this are hard to find! And I know there has been much research on the subject.

When it is such a big subject, there isn't much out there. I did read one study which explained how the chemical scent travels in layers through the air and that is how it hits the dogs nose. It starts out with just a few of these waves of scent hitting his nose, and the closer he gets to the source of the particular scent he is looking for, he is getting this scent in many layers of waves that he sniffs up, and then suddenly there are enough waves hitting his nose at once that he knows he is at the origin of the scent. And he alerts. That explained a lot to me about how sniffer dogs work, really interesting.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say here, that IMO we have not heard the full story yet on Eddie and Keela's findings and what the lab was able to make out of the chemical residues that made these two dogs alert. I think they were more successful than has been let out in the last few days about what the lab has gleaned from their work. They would certainly not leak anything about the dogs they would want to save for a court case, don't you think?

One reason I think that is another poster, Ringo, and I wanted to learn more about 'specific scenting' or as Aviewer called it, 'enhanced scenting'. Aviewer was a poster from America on the Mirror Forum who is in the business of recovery dogs and knew all about Eddie and Keela as they are so remarkable.

So we decided to compose a big post with all of Aviewer's writings about E and K and send it to Paulo and Mr Levy at SOS Madeleine. SOS was the first publication to use the words 'specific scent' dogs in referring to E & Keela, and the day before another paper actually referred to them as ''enhanced scent' recovery dogs. {BTW, Keela scents both live and post mortem blood which is extremely rare and unusual}. So SOS might have done some research and discovered Aviewer was correct in his statements, I don't know for sure, but do assume that.

So then Ringo wrote to E & K's handler, a Mr Martin Grimes. He did respond back to her that he could say nothing at all about either Eddie or Keela as they were both involved in Madeleine's case which was still an active investigation.

There has to be more to this story than we have been told, right!


As Always, xoxoxoxoxoxox

Scandi

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

IW when have you asked me this question before?
And the answer to the above highlight is from the National Director of the PJ Alipio Ribeiro.

(IW if you switch the PJ for the McCanns into your post. :waitasec: It's very interesting...Try it!!)

As for "leaks," here's part of just a couple of posts for you from the Media threads.
****
Media thread 176

Madeleine McCann: Police cheif breaks silence
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...-mostviewedbox
He has complained that while fellow officers were leaking information illegally — Portugal has strict secrecy laws — the same officers would instruct him to deny the stories when printed. The problem for Sousa was that the denials rarely got into the media.

The result has been endless column inches slandering the McCanns. ''Some Portuguese journalists were fairly convinced the so-called evidence passed on to them by police was nowhere near as concrete as their sources suggested," says Jose Lugios, a freelance reporter based in the Algarve.

Such lax practice has shocked even the country's politicians. ''The leaks to the press of some details that are supposed to be classified have been used as an easy way to manipulate and shape public opinion," says Francisco Louçã, leader of a Portuguese opposition party.
*****
Also Post 126 in the Portuguese Press thread...check out the last two paragraphs!!

Quotes are from the National Director of the PJ Alipio Ribeiro he admits to "some information leaks in this case that has been hugely exposed in the media" .....his words!!

He also talks about the loyal and respectful relationship between the British and Portuguese police and assures the British have never interfered!! ****

I left the last paragraph in because the British police have also been smeared!
**********
IW, If the latest batch of leaks regarding the final report is true..."and the secrecy laws are still in place"...Who do you think leaked it?

And just as important Why?

Damage control....The last thing they want is for their incompetance to become the focus. :waitasec: So they are busy still manipulating and shaping public opinion. IMO

Thank you April. Although some of your quotes are not from police, and it is all from various media, and not from a confirmed press conference from the horses mouth, so to speak, I'll take your word that the Police spread leaks. So, you are saying these leaks are facts or rumors?

Oh, and I did plug in the McCanns in place of the PJ as you suggested, and all I could think of was Gerry McCann (From his lips in an interview) in his best Bill Clinton impersonation saying, "It was like dining in your garden...":waitasec:

 

[SewingDeb]

I'm very much interested in reading his book!

Me, too! I hope it comes out in an English version.