Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by bessie, Jun 22, 2014.

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  1. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Then we have an altogether different scenario with Amanda Berry, Gina Dejesus and Michelle Knight - all abducted by same person, but at different times who were kept alive. Shawn Hornbeck comes to mind who was abducted while riding his bicycle and later helped another boy abducted escape. Then there is Elizabeth Smart and Jaycee Dugard, also a different category.

    Sounds like Smock's numbers were abduction of 2 girls only at one time, not necessarily murdered because Klunder's first victims escaped death. Less than 20 such recorded abductions. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. The profile that was released was specific. Need to find the link to the profile again.
     


  2. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I have read about Westley Allen Dodd. Pure evil! He chose to die by hanging because that is how he killed his victims (strangulation?). I need to read up on the Lyon sisters. Appreciate the links to their threads!
     
  3. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

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    Talking about abducting two girls at once, I couldn't help but notice some similarities with this case and the Morgan Violi case from 1996.
    The case was brought forth because of a possible link to the arrested suspect in the Gabriella Doolin case in 2015.
    Evansdale is about a 9 hr drive up straight up I-64 from Bowling Green KY.

    From the first post in Morgan's thread -

    she was taken in daylight about 1 pm... right outside her apartment complex.. she and a friend were riding their bikes.. the abductor tried to grab the other girl also but she got away.


    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...organ-Jade-Violi-7-Bowling-Green-24-July-1996

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Doolin-7-Allen-County-14-Nov-2015-*ARREST*-1
     
  4. giagreen

    giagreen Well-Known Member

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    http://www.kwwl.com/story/31824541/...r-reacting-to-her-childs-attempted-kidnapping

    I guess there was an attempted abduction. Not sure if I got this right but this attempted abduction happen liked 17 min from Evansdale. That's alarming to me.

    Edit to add I just checked again and yeah Jesup is like 12 miles away from Evansdale. This reminds me of a post not to long ago where the poster said they felt like this is the kind of case that it's gonna have to happen again for the perp to be caught. I sure hope not and something like this instead will get him caught.
     
  5. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    So creepy and stupid too, considering that everyone in the area and beyond, know about Elizabeth and Lyric and are no doubt watching out for guys like that one, imo.

     
  6. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Here is an abduction that happened in San Juan, New Mexico of a brother and a sister. The brother was released and the girl, age 11, was found dead.

    Suspect arrested in death of girl on New Mexico Navajo reservation - police

    A New Mexico man was arrested on Tuesday over the death of an 11-year-old girl kidnapped from the Navajo reservation in New Mexico, an FBI spokesman and the Navajo Nation said.

    Tom Begaye, 27, will appear before U.S. Magistrate Judge Paul Briones in Farmington on Wednesday, two days after Ashlynne Mike and her 9-year-old brother were abducted, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation spokesman Frank Fisher and a statement released by the Navajo Nation.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...vajo-reservation-police/ar-BBsBG7h?li=BBnb7Kz

    He was driving a maroon van. :sigh:
     
  7. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

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    Well, if he was involved in Lyric and Elizabeth's deaths, he's had plenty of time to change vans multiple times.

    It sounds like he was willing to abduct all three of them if he could have talked them into it.
     
  8. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    Mmmmmmaybe but I just don't think this is the guy.

    Something I've been wondering about for a long time (since before the girls' remains were found) was, if there was evidence of a sexual assault, whether both Elizabeth and Lyric were victimised.

    To put it crudely, some killers just don't care, if the victim available to them can breathe, they'll sexually assault them. Gender doesn't matter, age doesn't matter, race and/or ethnicity doesn't matter, they just want that power over a human being. Other killers are mainly attracted to one type of victim but are willing to assault victims that don't quite fit their personal target if the opportunity is there.

    Elizabeth, judging from her photos and what her family had to say about her, was still in the young and definitely pre-pubescent stage. Lyric was more physically mature looking and judging from her photos was in early adolescence. There tends to be a definite cut off line between perps attracted to pre-pubescent children and perps attracted to young adolescents. There don't seem to be many who are attracted to both.

    So the New Mexico case makes me wonder if the perp was only attracted to one girl and killed the other because she was a witness.

    Now that I've typed it all out, well duh, we've been talking about this for a long time. But I'll send it anyway because who knows? Can't hurt, may help.
     
  9. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, I don't think this was the guy who murdered Elizabeth and Lyric either. I definitely agree with carbuff that the perp has probably changed vehicles many, many times since 2012. Regarding Giagreen's post, I thought the child's description of her attempted abductor as "tan" was quite interesting. I am sure the authorities would be glad to have even that small of a description in Lyric and Lizzy's case.

    I think this perp was attracted to girls because he did end up telling the brother to go home. I'm going out on a limb and say this child was probably early adolescent too. I was surprised that they published what is believed to be what he killed her with. I don't want to state it here because it might be taken that I am saying that was the COD for Lyric and Elizabeth.

    I know we have discussed 2 children abductions before, and like carbuff said this guy could have taken all 3 children at the bus stop if he wanted them bad enough.

    It is unfathomable to think about what any children endures after being abducted. I hope they catch the perp trying to abduct kids in the Jesup area. It's close to Evansdale. Maybe this guy will have some answers.
     
  10. cindersoot

    cindersoot Mom to furry kids.

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    Hello again friends, so there was an abduction attempt in the waterloo area recently?
     
  11. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

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    I am sharing this article with you because it immediately made me think of Elizabeth and Lyric.

    Surrey police are asking for public help to locate two young girls, aged 10 and 12, who went missing from the 16100 block of 83rd Ave.
    The two girls, Arwyn, 12 and Hayley, 10, are cousins and were last seen playing at a residential complex in the area around 5 PM.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/missing-surrey-girls-arwyn-hayley-1.3583747


    These girls are cousins. There is no indication the girls have been kidnapped, but I have to say this one has me worried.

    Sent from my iPhone


    ETA - they were found safe and sound!
     
  12. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Bumping for Elizabeth and Lyric I hope and pray your killer is caught. You have not been forgotten.
     
  13. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting this incident.
    It turned out that these two cousins were just out for a walk but you never know when or if another similar case will turn up.

    It's sad to say but after almost four years, I think LE is having to wait for another similar incident to help them solve this case.
     
  14. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

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    I keep thinking about all of the possible scenarios that could have led to the abduction/murder of these girls. Of course, I have my own "pet" theory, as do many of us. I just have such a hard time understanding how two little girls out for a bike ride on a summer's day just vanished without anyone hearing a scream or seeing a struggle. That is what causes me to think the girls went with someone they had no reason to fear. That could be a large list of people, unfortunately.

    As some of us have suggested, a stranger could have taken the girls, using their love for each other to subdue any struggle or screams ("If you make a noise, I'll kill your friend").

    Or the girls could have been lured to a vehicle with the promise of something special ("Come look at the puppies I have in my van", for instance), and were quickly pushed inside before they knew what was happening.

    I'd love to hear other possibilities. Anything to keep the conversation going.
     
  15. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    You know how kids are about their birthdays, like it is practically a national holiday, well thinking of how one of the girls had a birthday coming up and was already making plans -
    My birthday is in the summer and as a kid, we would be up at a cottage and everyone around was invited for simple hotdogs,hamburgers. and cake - good times!
    Although i was aware of not going with strangers, or almost strangers, somehow a birthday seemed to over ride all those everyday rules.
    So, when a neighbour i did not really know that well pulled up in her car, said she was going shopping and asked if i would like to come along to pick out my birthday gift, i said YES and hopped right in.
    Nothing bad happened, the lady was very nice like the gift, a badminton set - but my mom was frantic and mad as heck when i got home.

    The point is, might something similar have happened with the girls, but obviously with a very different outcome?
    imo, speculation.
     
  16. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    The top possibility in my mind has always been that the girls did what about 40% of all women violently attacked do: froze up and could not make a sound. Men also freeze up, which is why military training from just about the first minute of basic training requires the trainees to scream out responses, particularly when under pressure. Military basic training has incorporated many of the same elements for at least the last 2200 years and one of those elements is conditioning the trainees to act under pressure (all that marching with a screaming DI actually has a deeper purpose). Our culture still puts pressure on girls to be quiet, well behaved and not to make a fuss. There is more acceptance of rowdiness in girls now than when I was a child but that "be a good girl" pressure still exists.

    I've read many personal stories on WebSleuths from people who were attacked and could not scream or try to run away. I've read many cases where the victim did not scream or try to run. It is actually quite a common reaction to a sudden attack.

    People can train out this reflex outside of the military and I believe every parent should do so with their children. It isn't enough to tell a child to scream or to yell for help, the child has to actually practise screaming under various conditions. Another way is via any of the martial arts that includes vocalising while striking (some martial arts are all but silent). Then teach them to scream and run away. All this can be 99% fun, it doesn't have to be dead serious "this could save your life so pay attention" type stuff. Just invent games that include screaming and running, being sure to incorporate some type of pressure into it such as pretending to be the monster who hunts children (for younger kids, obviously).

    Parents who can't stand listening to their children scream often fear that practising screaming will encourage more of it all the time but this is not actually true. In real life, children that are taught that the proper time(s) to scream do less freelance screaming. They get that release during all the practising and they start to get a sense that there's appropriate times to scream and that means there are inappropriate times as well.

    I write all this as a former very quiet child who just froze up and went silent when I was attacked. It took me 5 years to realise I did not deserve it, that I was not to blame for it and many, many more years of blaming myself for freezing. It wasn't until I became a dog trainer that I fully accepted that I'd had a perfectly natural reaction and that it was not my fault no one had ever taught me how to do something different.
     
  17. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    I don't have much to add other than being thankful for all of us who have continued to follow this case. :( I just can't believe we are coming up on 4 years with no resolution in sight. I never imagined that we'd all still be sitting here, 4 years later with such little to go on - so few details that we can run with. I have to believe LE is keeping everything under wraps for a reason - or rather, I should say I HOPE they have lots of information they are keeping under wraps in hope of an eventual arrest. I sometimes let the anger and frustration get the best of me at times and let doubt sneak in that the reason they haven't been public about movement in the case is because they simply don't have any more to run with. I fear that all the leads and tips are dead ends. I struggle with the thought that somewhere, someone is likely feeling they've gotten away with this - and maybe they have?

    I run circles in my mind of why they don't release more info - give people something NEW to think about - but I know that they are likely pieces of this puzzle that could risk the case falling apart if made public.

    I don't know - 4 years seems like such a long time - but yet, looking back it doesn't feel like it's been 4 years. I know there are cases that take decades to solve, but with the circumstances of this case I really thought there would be some obvious progress made. Maybe soon...we can only hope, right?

    :(
     
  18. 24Roses

    24Roses Well-Known Member

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    http://www.2016rideanddrive.com/ The memorial ride for the girls is coming up on July 9th, so the following local news stations should have stories: KWWL, KCRG, and KGAN. It sounds like they are also having a child safety day on July 13th at Angels Park.
     
  19. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    SBM

    I was just reminded of a situation where an 11 year old girl was abducted on surveillance video: Carlie Brucia. She was walking home through the parking lot of a car wash when Joseph P Smith approached her, had a brief conversation with her, grabbed her by the wrist and led her off to his car. The surveillance video didn't have sound but it did clearly show Carlie's face and she wasn't screaming. A man dressed in some sort of yellow uniform bicycled through the same spot literally seconds after Carlie was accosted and heard nothing out of the ordinary. There's a Youtube video showing the surveillance video from one of the cameras here:

    [video=youtube;tJoID7VwRtM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJoID7VwRtM[/video]

    There are lots of studies that show Carlie's reaction was far from unique. Freezing up is a very common reaction to a sudden threat or attack.
     
  20. cindersoot

    cindersoot Mom to furry kids.

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    Hello friends, well we are coming up to the abduction date. This case never leaves my mind. Remember my main suspect?
     
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