Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by bessie, Jun 22, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,496
    Likes Received:
    44,038
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joy was pushing the theory Duane Hart was the one who abducted Jacob and then took the credit for ELOCSoul's work in linking Heinrich to the case. I agree though they can't let the girl's case remain cold the fact this murderer is out living free makes your blood boil.
     


  2. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    591
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I watched an episode of Swamp Murders and there was a scene that showed how quickly someone can get control over two girls. In this episode, two 13 or 14 year old girls were kicking around s soccer ball when a man came up, asked them their names and complimented them on their soccer skills. He then mentions that he has a new soccer ball in his car if they would like to have it. They walk over to his car, he opens the trunk and forces them into the trunk. It's all done quickly.

    I personally believe our girls went willingly with someone they felt was safe, but did find it interesting how quickly that man had control over those two teenagers. Just thought I'd share the info.
     
  3. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    30,001
    Likes Received:
    35,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thanks Marilynilpa, hope you are feeling better, it is nice to see you posting here!
     
  4. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    591
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thanks, dotr. We've been WS friends for quite a while, and I appreciate your concern. :loveyou:I am doing well, all things considered, and hope to be posting more frequently.
     
  5. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    It's really not so surprising when you think about how a child's world runs.

    Children are taught from a very early age to be compliant to adults, even adult strangers. For instance, it's a very common experience for a child to be taken to school and left in the care of a total stranger--it's called kindergarten. Kids who are not compliant with adults can get all kinds of labels: ADHD, ODD, juvenile delinquent, etc. Adults think "but I would never teach my child to obey a stranger!" without realising that normal children do not get to the developmental stage of being able to accurately define "stranger" until they are 12 to 14 years old. Kids really believe that if they know someone's name, that person is not a stranger (how difficult is it to walk up to a kid and say "hi, I'm Mr Joe Blow"?). Or if they know something about the stranger, such as the stranger owns a puppy or they liked to swing on the swings when they were a kid, that means that person isn't a stranger. That's more than they know about their 3rd grade teacher on the first day of school and kids usually understand that they are expected to cooperate with that teacher.

    The whole concept of stranger is pretty sophisticated because it involves all sorts of social conventions and expectations that young children simply do not understand.

    Gifting is another sophisticated concept that involves all kinds of social rules that kids don't fully understand until they are well into their teens. For instance, it is pretty common at arts and crafts fairs for vendors to have a bowl of cheap, pretty trinkets to give to the children who accompany a parent or caregiver to the booth. To the kid, it makes it seem normal that some adults that they've never met before might seem to spontaneously give them a gift; they don't really understand that those little trinkets are a way to get the accompanying adult to spend a little longer at that booth and to get that adult to feel gratitude to the vendor, both of which lead to better sales. So many kids live with a world view that sees an adult who offers a present as just a normal part of life.

    And all of the above are ways that predators use the conventions of civilised life to their own ends.

    I may have mentioned this before but I once watched a police demo that showed just how fast an average sized man who knows what he's doing can pull an average sized woman into his car through the driver's side window. The officer doing the demo just pulled up next to the volunteer, rolled down his window and showed a city map, saying he was trying to find X but couldn't find it, could she show him how to get there? The volunteer stepped over to the open window, the officer grabbed her by one wrist and basically just dragged her into his car. It took less than 15 seconds, max.

    I don't think that is how Elizabeth and Lyric were abducted. I think that the perp used some type of ruse to get the girls over to where he was parked on what used to be Maiden Lane, then overpowered them (either physically or via showing them a weapon). The overpowering part could have taken less than 5 seconds.
     
  6. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,124
    Likes Received:
    4,561
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What a powerful and eye-opening post! Thank you.
    It brings to mind the ritual of Halloween which is just around the corner. Smiling parents bring their babies, toddlers and small children to homes of friends as well as strangers just for the lure of candy. As children grow older, they go on their own to unknown houses just as they had been taught all the years past. The usual admonition by parents to watch out for strangers doesn't register in their minds for strangers who are giving out candy. The newest thing that is supposed to be safe is to have people give out candy from the trunk of their car in a group setting for the safety of the children. Imagine what this teaches children?

    http://www.onegoodthingbyjillee.com/2014/10/trunk-treat-ideas.html
     
  7. 24Roses

    24Roses Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1,837
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I was at a birthday party recently where 2 neighbor children (8 & 5) were the only 2 non-relatives there. They were invited by my relative to have cake and ice cream. They both sat down & immediately the 8-yr.-old started randomly talking to me and others at my table about everything. Within 1 minute of the conversation I learned they had a new kitten and the 8-yr.-old wanted to start a kitten farm when he got older. Because I work with young children & enjoy them, I started asking them questions. Neither of those children had ever seen me before, but by the end of the conversation I knew where they lived and went to school and a whole lot more about their kitten. I think too that children have a false sense of security because if my neighbor knows all these people at the party then it must be ok for me to talk to them. I said right away that I think those children need a little stranger danger talk because if they ever met someone trying to get them into a car with puppy or kitten they would be gone.
     
  8. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Um. I am speechless.

    Okay, I have recovered my powers of speech. In the 1960s, when I was trick-or-treat age, my family's rule was that we weren't to go to any house that we didn't know. Since we all knew everyone who lived in a roughly 4 block area, that was more than enough scope for serious sugar overdosing. Part of the fun was neighbours pretending they couldn't recognise us under our costumes. People moved around much less back then. I had a bunch of friends in high school whose families had lived in the same house since they were in kindergarten... or since they were born.

    There was also a safety factor in that us neighbourhood kids formed a pack and we were rarely alone when outside. Our moms didn't need to be outside to watch over us continuously once we were around 6 years old. We moved around with a group of 10 to 15 kids ranging in age from 6 to around 12 years old.

    I'm old enough to know that the old days were far from better but there are aspects that I miss.
     
  9. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,124
    Likes Received:
    4,561
    Trophy Points:
    113
  10. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    So far as I know, nothing has been said about the existence or not of DNA evidence.

    Strictly my own hunch: I doubt there is any. The perp could easily have avoided touching either of the bikes or Elizabeth's purse and any DNA found on other surfaces could easily be from any one of dozens of innocent trail users. I doubt touch DNA would have survived at 7 Bridges (tho' I'd be thrilled to be wrong) and even DNA from bodily fluids probably would not survive that long. DNA enclosed within the bones and teeth is quite well protected and lasts for years outdoors but other DNA tends to degrade pretty quickly.
     
  11. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    591
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The motive for homicide is usually sex, money or revenge. I don't know if the."traditional" motives apply to the abduction and murder of two children. I think control would also be a motive, since sexual assaults are about control over the victim with sex being a secondary motive. J MO.

    What do you guys feel is the motivation for what happened to Elizabeth and Lyric?
     
  12. tlcya

    tlcya Old and Tired Websleuth

    Messages:
    36,870
    Likes Received:
    6,903
    Trophy Points:
    113
    sexual/thrill kill motive has always been my feel for it.

    Feels random like crime of opportunity. Someone that was recognizable to the girls but not well known, who was taking note of them the day and possibly weeks before they were abducted.

    JMO as a member.
     
  13. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    30,001
    Likes Received:
    35,701
    Trophy Points:
    113
    At the moment, thinking control, thrill, perhaps resulting in accidental death of one child, then needed death of the remaining "witness".
    For now.
    imo speculation.
     
  14. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Great question, Marilyn--I'm glad you are posting!

    I think that the perp probably had built up quite a sexual fantasy that involved one child (I suspect Elizabeth was the original attraction for the perp) but ended up with two victims. I think it's very possible that one girl may have been a block or so ahead of the other, so when the perp made his initial move he thought he was only dealing with one child. I could be wrong on this and his fantasies may have included double victims (altho' that is a pretty rare factor even in a pretty rare crime). Pretty quickly, his fantasy started diverging from his mental script and he panicked, which led to him killing both Lyric and Elizabeth. I think it is more likely that this perp will never physically attack any more children directly but is probably a heavy user of child porn.

    My most recent hunch is no doubt influenced by the Jacob Wetterling case. Danny Heinrich was sexually assaulted himself as a young teen and the experience really messed him up. I have no sources to back this up but my suspicion is that when he was sexually assaulted, he was left with conflicting emotions about the experience. It was scary at the time and no doubt humiliating once it became widely known in his community (his attacker was never charged); I would not be surprised if Heinrich experienced the phenomenon of involuntary sexual arousal (which can include orgasm). When adult victims experience involuntary sexual arousal during an attack, it often really increases their overall emotional trauma from the attack. They often feel ashamed and conflicted, particularly if they never learned that it is not an uncommon response to sexual attack; somewhere between 5% and 10% of all victims experience involuntary sexual arousal during an attack but there is huge stigma attached to victims who have this response, even though it is involuntary. Meaning that the victim didn't make a decision to feel it, did not have any control over feeling it and often feels horrified for feeling it.

    In Danny Heinrich's case, it seems he perpetrated a series of escalating sexual assaults; my theory is that he was rationalising that even though he was using fear to control his victims, based on his own experience what his victims were experiencing was not that bad or was not all bad. My basis for this opinion is that Heinrich apparently stopped assaulting children after he killed Jacob, even though he continued to collect child porn. I think he felt great regret and horror over how Jacob's abduction turned out because I think he killed Jacob out of panic, rather than as part of what he needed to do to get sexual satisfaction from the crime.

    People have commented that Heinrich seemed emotionless when he testified under oath about his crime but I think there's a more likely explanation than that he felt no guilt or remorse: as part of the preparation for his hearing, he had no doubt undergone hours and hours of interviews, with detectives and then with his own lawyers. Ironically, sexual assault victims also suffer from this presentation problem. Typically, a sexual assault victim's recounting of the crime evolves over time. The first time they tell anyone about it, they say something like "this happened, that happened and then he raped me." They don't go into graphic detail about exactly how they were assaulted. But in interviews with investigators, they are required to go over their story repeatedly, while the investigator(s) ask questions to elicit every single detail in living colour. Same thing happens if the prosecutor decides to bring charges--they subject the victim to interview after interview, in part to prepare their own case and in part to prepare the victim for testifying. By the time the case gets to court in front of a jury, the victim is mostly past the stage when they whisper "then he raped me" and burst into tears. They tend to give the graphic details of the assault in response to questions and jurors often see their forthrightness and relative lack of emotion as meaning that the assault wasn't that bad or that the victim must be lying because if they were really assaulted that way, how could they be so calm about it?
     
  15. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,124
    Likes Received:
    4,561
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think his motive was sexual in nature. Obtaining two girls at once was his fantasy.
    I think he saw the girls biking into the park and took a chance while he had it.
    He was able to gain control of the girls either by fear or trust.
    I don't believe the girls knew him from before.
    I imagine it happening much the way Klunder operated.
     
  16. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    591
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Glad to see what some of you think about the motive.

    If there was no drug connection, I would think the motive was sexual. But after reading about meth and the terrible activities that take place in that world, I can't believe this was a sexually motivated crime. I lean more towards revenge, with sexual assault being a possible secondary motive.

    Although the girls were in Elizabeth's neck of the woods, Lyric was a frequent visitor, as she accompanied Wylma when she came to clean for Heather. I still believe the girls were taken by someone familiar to one or both of them.

    JMO
     
  17. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I just can't get past the fact that if someone wanted to intimidate or threaten DM, the timing is all wrong. DM had just decided to REFUSE a plea bargain in order to plead not guilty and go to trial. That one single move means that DM was planning to keep his mouth shut about whatever he might know about the meth trade. If this had happened the day before he refused the plea bargain, it would make sense but that's not the way it happened.

    As for the activities associated with meth, keep in mind that we have some historical examples that show that meth users are not automatically violent or murderous. For instance, methamphetamine was sold in tablet form as "Pervitin" by a German pharmaceutical company in Germany well into the 1930s was available as an over the counter drug. Hitler's government encouraged workers to take it in an effort to increase productivity (yes, Hitler was anti-drug but his understanding of what consisted of a drug was very different than the present day). In the US, a medication called "Obetrol" was widely prescribed in the 1950s and 1960s as a diet pill.

    Yes, some meth users are violent and do terrible things but far from all.
     
  18. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,415
    Likes Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Bumping for Lyric and Elizabeth!

    I have been following Kayla Gomez's horrible abduction and murder... She was 10-years-old. Her murderer was in Texas illegally. I wonder if police have looked at migrant workers that might have been in the Evansdale area and were familiar with the area including 7 Bridges because they worked in the area. I think this could be a possibility. So much time has passed... I just want justice for the cousins! :candle:
     
  19. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,415
    Likes Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Bumping for Lyric and Elizabeth!

    I have been following Kayla Gomez's horrible abduction and murder... She was 10-years-old. Her murderer was in Texas illegally. I wonder if police have looked at migrant workers that might have been in the Evansdale area and were familiar with the area including 7 Bridges because they worked in the area. I think this could be a possibility. So much time has passed... I just want justice for the cousins! :candle:

    Link to Kayla Gomez's thread if anyone is interested: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ard-1-November-2016-2&p=12940316#post12940316
     
  20. Emerald1328

    Emerald1328 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    451
    Trophy Points:
    53
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice