IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

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Dr. Doogie

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Mr. E said:
..Didn't she insinuate that her son (I'm still not even sure I believe she has a kid) is a part of the House of Stuart? Isn't that . . . royalty??...
Yes, PJH believes that her son was stolen because he was the eldest direct heir to the "true" crown of England. That is why she believes that the Queen of England (from the "phoney" line) rewarded GHW Bush for driving her into bankruptcy.
 

Dr. Doogie

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I also agree that Noreen's involvement with PJH has distracted people away from Johnny's case (I know it has done it to me). I applaud Noreen's push to expose these fetish sites and to identify the victims depicted on them. That is a noble goal and one that befits the Noreen that people have respected over the years.
 

mjak

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Based on the response the last person got from Noreen when she tried to make her aware of the concerns regarding PJH I have no intrest in trying to contact Noreen now.
I read Noreen's book and I believe that Noreen is also mentally ill and is likely having her own distored thinking reinforced by PJH. Its very sad and concerning that two very serious issues are being lost in the disjointed ramblings of two likely mentally Ill women. Those issues being a missing boy and the horrible pictures showing many boys in horrible cirumstances. This concerns me.

mjak
 

2sisters

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Dr. Doogie said:
From a long post by PJH on a Crop Circle website in 2001:

"[size=-1]...12.Has the Government tried to cover-up the real source of the Crop Drawings?[/size]
[size=-1](PJH): YES! they even went so far as the brain wash me as early as July 30, 1949. Attempts were made on my life as early as right after being born. There were two floods (the dykes "just happened to brake" an Earthquake (more like a tunnel being colapsed) and a plane crashed in my front yard. Not to mention when getting my first baby shots my mother accused them of trying to kill me. Ever since Roswell, there has been GREAT effort to NOT let any information out about the real reason for my birth. All my life there has been one thing after another. Even to the point of when reaching for a video tape at Blockbusters the tape was taken right out from under my hand (if it was something 'NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SEEN BY ME')."[/size]
I could not help but laugh at this post, I know that was not your intention. I agree with another poster, she probably doesn't have a son. The government probaly removed her uterus at birth so she could not carry on her legacy. If she does have kids I am sure they stay away from her.
 

cappuccina

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...I think that while Noreen Gosch suffers from PTSD, PJH is beyond that...her writings are almost schizophrenic in nature... (paranoid "word salad" type ramblings...)
 

Mr. E

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PJH's connections are so odd. She goes from floods and earthquakes being caused just to try to get to her, to videos being snatched away from her in Blockbuster to keep her from "the truth." All in a matter of a few sentences.

I don't think Noreen is suffering in the same way that PJH is. While PJH seems like she has some kind of mental illness that she has probably been suffering from her entire life, Noreen just seems like a tired, sad woman who is trying desperately to make some sense out of what happened to her child. Who's to say what kind of effect that daily stress of not knowing will have on a person? If it was me, I'd probably grasp at any bit of hope that my child was alive, too, no matter how incomprehensible it sounded.
 

Dr. Doogie

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I do have a level of sympathy for NG and her plight, so I grant her some grace in my opinions of her. I have zero sympathy for PJH who seems to have a long history of delusions which probably drove her son (if he ever even existed) away from her.

She reminds me of the one time I was on jury duty in a case involving whether an adult man should be placed under conservatorship by the government for mental illness. Several "advocates" for the man explained how he could care for himself if he took his meds and was actually doing very well. When the judge asked the man "How do you feel?", the man responded that he was doing pretty good considering that the Queen of England had just tried to kill him that morning. Needless to say, he bought himself a one-way ticket to the nut-house. Perhaps PJH can be his roommate so the Queen won't have to send two assassins this time.
 

Dr. Doogie

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Dr. Doogie said:
Patricia Johnson-Holm lives in Seattle and hosts an internet radio show focusing on "fringe" topics along with several co-hosts (she is the primary host). Her co-hosts also are rabid believers in the whole Franklin/Alien/et al conspiracies based on their posts on her Yahoo forum. How much you wanna bet that if this third parent ever surfaces, there will be a paper trail of kooky posts that they are responsible for also and may very well be one of her co-hosts?
Well, I was half right. PJH has posted the following on one of her websites:

"johnnygosch.com NOTICE the picture of three boys tied gagged on bed. The middle child appears to be my son David and the other boy with David and Johnny Gosch is David's Friend from Lynnwood, WA."

I knew that there was going to be some sort of connection between PJH and the third boy. At least the woman is predictable in her looniness.
 

iowa gurl

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There are only 2 boys listed as missing in Washington State that would come close to fitting the criteria and may fit into the photo. It is absolutely not Marti Heitzell who was 17 or 18 upon his dissapearance in 1989. In my opinion it is not William Downey either who went missing in 1987 at 12 or 13. Time frames do not fit at all .

I sure hope Noreen backs away quickly from PJH.

I really do have faith in Noreen, what she has done and continues to do for victimized children. I, as do most of us; want to know where the truth lies in all of this and I do believe that is what Noreen wants too.
 

laini

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I wish there would have been a way for Noreen to post all of those disturbing photos by blurring out certain parts and just showing their face or identifiying things. I know, I know, somebody may recognize something in the photos. I just think they are so upsetting. If they are not staged photos and these boys are really being bound, then it is like child *advertiser censored* (IMO) and shouldn't be shown like that for anyone to view. I have seen FBI photos blurred like that and still showing the person they are trying to identify.
 

mjak

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I know that several people here have faith and believe in Noreen. I have great sympathy for Noreen. However, I read her book and I have to say I think she is very distorted in
her thinking and likely mentally Ill. As much as I would like to say PJH is posioning Noreen with her unbalanced thinking I don't think that is completly the case. Therefore,
I have to take anything Noreen posts as questionable irregardless of its association with PJH. This is why I am not on the kidnapping consipracy trail laid out by Noreen. I do believe its a possibility and deffinitly is what Noreen thinks happend. However, I think other possibilities need to be addressed. One thing that has always stuck out in my mind is the fact that Johnny disappeared the first time his father allowed him to deliver his papers alone. I really want to know more about Johnnys father and his behavior that morning.

mjak
 

iowa gurl

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I live in Iowa (go figure) and Mr. Gosch has never been a player in the case as far as finding Johnny goes. It is very difficult to find infirmation on John Sr. or Johnny's 2 siblings. I remember early on that Mr. Gosch had a very flat affect and didnt have much to say to the media.

There are not many Des Moines Register links that work on-line so someone would have to go through microfilms to read early newspaper articles. As far as I know, none of the elements of this case ever made it to a courtroom so they would not be public record.

As far as the book, Noreen had a poor editor and it was written and published carelessly. The content, however confusing, is what she believes. Why would you not end up half crazed if your husband isnt helping you find your lost child and the police show up at organized searches and tell the searchers to go home because the boy is just a runaway.

These types of things happened early on in the case and continue to happen today.

Here is a conspiracy theory for you. ( Did you hear PJH was hired by the CIA to throw Noreen off track and to discredit her publicly?)

Remove the lunacy, the whack jobs from her coat tails and a poorly edited book and Noreen is just a mom trying find out what happened to her son.
Maybe all the craziness is the only thing that has kept the case alive for her for all these years.
 

mjak

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I don't doubt that Noreen believes every word of what she says. Believing
something does not make it true. Noreen has every reason to be crazed. I certanitly would be if my child was missing. However, the thought processes
evidenced in her book and her online postings IMO go beyond emotionaly crazed do a missing child. The book scared me. Have you read the book?
Poor editing, desperation and understandable craze aside I felt her words
were much more then that.

mjak
 

laini

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mjak said:
I don't doubt that Noreen believes every word of what she says. Believing
something does not make it true. Noreen has every reason to be crazed. I certanitly would be if my child was missing. However, the thought processes
evidenced in her book and her online postings IMO go beyond emotionaly crazed do a missing child. The book scared me. Have you read the book?
Poor editing, desperation and understandable craze aside I felt her words
were much more then that.

mjak
I agree with you mjak, after recently reading her book.
 

2sisters

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Are the Des Moines police even investigating this or taking Noreen seriously anymore? I would be interested to talk to someone with LE who was invovled in this case from the beginning.
 

Mr. E

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Does anyone know if Johnny's earlobes were "attached" or "unattached"?
 

mel36

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mel36 said:
I thought this was interesting how often is it that you find an exact brand as showed on AMW with the same name any connection? I just thought it is worth a look see.:twocents:
http://www.rockingx.com/branding/2003%20BUDDY%209.jpg
I want to restate what I said about a connection - I meant in the branding Iron's make and look I should have stated that I am not saying that the people of this ranch are in connection just wanted to clear that statement up.
 

Dr. Doogie

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2sisters said:
...I agree with another poster, she probably doesn't have a son... If she does have kids I am sure they stay away from her.
On FranklinFiles.com, a person who claims to know Patricia Johnson-Holm personally claims that she does have a son named David who is now in his thirties and has nothing to do with her (her other children also have cut their ties with her). The poster also claims that PJH has changed her story over the years from her son being cloned and it was the clone who was given to her by the people in the white trailer (in a matter of hours they cloned a teenage boy?) to the current story of her having a stolen twin who was switched with David by the people in the white trailer. And that she had just recently discovered that she had given birth to twins (one of whom was stolen at birth - I guess just so they could abduct the other one a dozen years later and make the switch. Makes perfect sense to me. :liar: ). The posters also lists many other kooky claims that the woman has made (and as hilarious as they are, I will not list them here).

Soi we now have the following differing explainations of the photo of the three boys - each with their own difficulties:

Option #1: THE ZAVLA EXPLAINATION

The retired detective who claims that the picture is staged where these three boys have been identified and verified to be not kidnapped. The boys (now adults) claim that they posed for the picture in trade for fireworks. The problem is the detective cannot produce any case notes to verify this claim, perhaps because they were purged after a period of time since no crime had been committed.

Option #2: THE GOSCH EXPLAINATION

In this explaination, the boy on the right is Johnny (as identified by Noreen). Patricia Johnson-Holm has identified the middle boy as her son David and the boy on the left as David's friend.

I believe that PJH's paper trail has shown her opinion to be worth zippo and Noreen's opinion has been tainted by her association with PJH. The detective's repudiation of the picture without any documentation to back it up is troubling, but compared to the circus that the Gosch side has now become, I believe Zavla, which means that I believe that picture is irrelevant to Johnny's case.

However, the other pictures of "Johnny" alone are still in play (IMHO). I am not yet convinced that they are of Johnny, but cannot dismiss them either. They exist separate from the PJH fiasco and may very well be of Johnny. These do seem worthy of greater examination.

By the way, another (yet unpublished) photograph has rumored to have surfaced showing Johnny (a few years after his disappearance) with Paul Bonnaci and George Bush Sr. together at a Bush campaign stop. The exact nature of picture is unknown by me (I have not seen it, but it has been summarized by those who have seen it). This has the "smell" of urban legend, but at least one of the people who has seen it is not what I would consider a kook, so I await the chance to examine it myself before passing judgement on its veracity. If not a Photoshop hoax and that Gosch and Bonnaci are clearly identifiable, then this is obviously big news which elevates the position of the Franklin Cover-up folks greatly. I will refrain from making any predictions about the photograph to see if it ever actually materializes in the public domain.
 
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