IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

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iowa gurl

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The only fact that I know to be 100% true in this case is the fact that a little boy vanished off the face of the earth, and sadly, he wasn't the only boy.

Amen loganone,

I have to wonder why or how the same people who lable Noreen a "KOOK" base their lable on theory and conjecture about her or relate their lable to her behavior over the last 25 years.

Twenty five years of not knowing where a child is or what happened to him is bound to make anyone neurotic.

Why isnt the conjecture about the PEDO ring as readily accepted as is calling Noreen a kook.

People lose sight of the real questions,

"What Happened to Johnny Gosch?""Where is Johnny Gosch?"

I live in Central Iowa and every time there are skeletal remains found I have a glimpse of hope that it might be Johnny's remains. I know this is a bit morbid but it would certainly prove or disprove many theorys.

Personally I believe the direction of the investigation is probabally not far off the mark and it will never, never be proven unless Johnny is still alive and can some day come forth with his story and have evidence and photos to prove it. There are too many common denominators for it to be "All Lies" there are too many kids telling the same story involving the same players.

What if Noreen is Right?
 

shefner

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I'm curious if those who do not believe in the pedophile ring (which had other dealing in other illegal activities, too, such as drug running and funding for coverup operations like Iran Contra) have actually read John DeCamp's book, The Franklin Coverup?

Also, how many have researched the MKUltra information? Have you viewed the old government black-and-white footage of military persons who were involved in MKUltra mind-control research? You should watch it...its hard to believe that our government (and this was years ago, before modern age technology) was involved in this. But we have proof they were, not only from film footage but from the old government records which have been released. If I hadn't seen it and read it with my own eyes, I would never have believed it myself....
 

Teresa Larson

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The Iowa caucuses are an electoral event in which residents of the U.S. state of Iowa meet in precinct caucuses in all of Iowa's 1784 precincts and elect delegates to the corresponding county conventions. There are 99 counties in Iowa and thus 99 conventions. They have caucuses all over in Iowa not just in Des Moines and that's only every 4 years. For all of you that think Johnny is still alive and was taken by a pedophile ring prove it and then go after the government. I'd still like to know why you think they chose Johnny in Des Moines when Omaha is full of little boys.
 

shefner

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The Iowa caucuses are an electoral event in which residents of the U.S. state of Iowa meet in precinct caucuses in all of Iowa's 1784 precincts and elect delegates to the corresponding county conventions. There are 99 counties in Iowa and thus 99 conventions. They have caucuses all over in Iowa not just in Des Moines and that's only every 4 years. For all of you that think Johnny is still alive and was taken by a pedophile ring prove it and then go after the government. I'd still like to know why you think they chose Johnny in Des Moines when Omaha is full of little boys.


Paul Bonacci said that these pedophiles would choose boys from a "catalogue" of photos. If those boys were not available, they would go after those who met the same requirements such as certain size, hair color, eye color, etc. Sounds sick, I know, but this is how Bonacci claims Johnny was chosen. If I'm not mistaken (I need to look this up again or rbeck might be able to correct me), Bonacci said Johnny was chosen by Col. Michael Aquino. Bonacci said the boys all called him "The Colonel."
 

shadowraiths

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I personally, doubt Johnny is alive due to statistical probabilities however there is no question in my mind that Johnny was a victim of child trafficking. Too many things in this case seem to point in that direction.

As for the mistaken belief that trafficking is someone else's problem. Please don't kid yourselves.
Human trafficking is not only alive and well in America but it is as much a part of the government corruption machine as drug trafficking.
If anything, the Finders case exemplifies this. Who are the Finders, you may ask? Following is an excerpt from a February 7, 1987 customs report (paragraph breaks added to ease reading):
Cursory examination of the documents revealed detailed instructions for obtaining children for unspecified purposes. The instructions included the impregnation of female members of the community known as the Finders, purchasing children, trading, and kidnapping. There were telex messages using MCI account numbers between a computer terminal believed to be located in the same room, and others located across the country and in foreign locations.

One such telex specifically ordered the purchase of two children in Hong Kong to be be arranged through a contact in the Chinese Embassy there. Another telex expressed interest in "bank secrecy" situations. Other documents identified interests in high-tech transfers to the United Kingdom, numerous properties under the control of the Finders, a keen interest in terrorism, explosives, and the evasion of law enforcement.

Also found in the "computer room" was a detailed summary of the events surrounding the arrest and taking into custody of the two adults and six children in Tallahassee the previous night. There were also a set of instructions which appeared to be broadcast via a computer network which advised the participants to move "the children" and keep them moving through different jurisdictions, and instructions on how to avoid police attention.
One would think the above would have been more than enough to launch a nationwide investigation. Yet, from an April 13, 1987 customs report:
On Thursday, February 5, 1987, Senior Special Agent [redacted] and I assisted the Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) with two search warrants involving the possible sexual exploitation of children. During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom, and international transfer of currency.

[...]

The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter. The MPD report has been classified secret and was not available for review. I was advised that the FBI had withdrawn from the investigation several weeks prior and that the FBI Foreign Counter Intelligence Division had directed MPD not to advise the FBI Washington Field Office of anything that had transpired.

No further information will be available. No further action will be taken.
The above, along with news reports, can be found on my site under the repository though you must log in to access them. Also see:
December 22, 1998: The Finders and Patch Adams
December 23, 1998: The Finders' Keeper
January 14, 2003: A Freethinkers' Haven Grows in--Culpeper?
October 12, 2006: The Pedophocracy, Part VI: Finders Keepers
February 12, 2007: No Easy Answers
While I do not necessarily agree with all of the conclusions reached in the above op eds, the customs reports simply cannot and should not be ignored. Another disturbing case you might consider checking out is the Gilmer TX case of missing teen, Kelly Wilson, and allegations resulting in several convictions that some (even today) claim, was the result of a witch hunt. Court records however tell a different story.

When you're finished with that, do some reading on Human Trafficking. You can start by entering "human trafficking" (quoted) in the google news search engine. If you want to winnow that down, enter "child trafficking". And while you're at it, you might read the DOJ stats on this very real problem (click here). Here's a quote from the aforementioned link:
"Of the 600,000-800,000 people trafficked across international borders each year, 70 percent are female and 50 percent are children. The majority of these victims are forced into the commercial sex trade. (Ibid.)" -- USDOJ, 2005
And, once you've finished perusing the stats, consider that we, as a nation, have the largest number of websites in the world that host child *advertiser censored*. (click here) If that is not enough to convince you of this very real problem, here are a few more links for your perusal:
Now, when you're finished with the above, you might also ask yourself why so many convicted child predators get what amounts to a slap on the wrist? And then, educate yourself on how these sex rings operate. You know, the ones who not only traffic children but also produce child *advertiser censored*? Contrary to popular opinion, they are not fly-by-night aberrations run out Joe predator's basement. Human trafficking is second to drug trafficking in both prevalence and the amount of money involved. And where there is money, more often than not, local, state, and even federal officials have their nasty hands in the pot.

But, back to Johnny. Is he one of the thousands of trafficking victims? I think so. And while I do not feel he is alive (or Jeff Gannon, for example), considering the shady figures that have and keep popping up around that case, I do think there is definitely more to this than the "lone predator" scenario.

For example consider George Paul Bishop—the man who approached Noreen Gosch shortly after her son was kidnapped, claiming, among other things, to work for the CIA, as well as claiming that Johnny had been procured for a paedophile ring. For all practical purposes, this man's story seems to ring true as he appeared to have access to officials in high places.

Interestingly (or perhaps not so), Bishop, along with another man, Richard Evans, were convicted for producing child *advertiser censored* in February of 2005. Unfortunately, outside of a handful of sites that archived the news, records on Bishop seem to be as sparse as those of other convicted individuals with ties to officials in high places (Joe Wiley Brown, for example, who is implicated in the disappearance and eventual 1979 horrendous murder of Tammy Vincent).

So, while some "claims" around this tragic case may certainly seem far fetched to the decided skeptics, the sad fact is, government corruption and coverups have been as much a part of the American landscape as has home made apple pie. And, tragically, there is no shortage of people who have not a problem exploiting the victims, as well as putting forth theories that challenges the realities of even the staunchest conspiracy theorist, hence ensuring the victims are not believed. This is why critical thinking is incredibly important. Take time to do the research rather than relying upon your (the general your) personal experience and/or view of the world. And please remember, not everything is as it seems. In fact, very little is.
 

iowa gurl

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Read the books,

"Why Johnny Can't Come Home"

"Franklin Files"

Watch "Conspiracy of Silence"

Just a side note--

How can a man (Larry King) afford an embacy row mansion in Washington DC on a $10.000 salary from a minority credit union in Omaha.

What does he need it for? and WHO paid for it? hmmm?
 

iowa gurl

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The picture most recently posted by Noreen are of the same boy, same room as the first picture of the December 21 posting of 2006, as well as many of the others she has posted

Look at the room, black box beside the bed, same brown box too, in one pic it is on the floor the other pic it is on top of the black box, yet another it is on the floor with the cat on it look at the silver appearing sticker on the brown box looks like a UL (Underwriters Laboratories)sticker or something.

Look at the sweat pants.

Look at the headboard in all the photo's Noreen says are of Johnny, it seems to me these are all in the same room the only exception being the one he has on western wear. Which, by the way, would lend some credence to the theory he was taken to a Ranch for Col. Aquino's pleasure.

This whole thing is just sickening and I know if it were my son I know I would be able to identify him without question.

These are obviously taken over a period of weeks, months even. Same room, same location, same boy. I would venture to guess that the pictures with the white sweat pants were taken closer to his abduction and the others after being held for a while. I say this because he looks thinner in some and the seriousness of the bindings seems to change from being hog tied to just his arms and legs. Make sense to anyone?
 

shefner

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Iowa girl, I haven't looked that closely at these pictures for comparison but I do feel that all these pics look very similar, including the room they were taken in.

I had recently joined another board but decided to "unjoin" after so many of them held contempt for everything connected to this case. They all seemed to despise Noreen and Ted Gunderson. I have a lot of questions but I do believe that Johnny was kidnapped (and maybe his dad had something to do with it in some way?)....I want to believe Paul Bonacci's word that he was involved. He seems credible to me (of course, I don't "know" him but just from what I've seen). Much of what we know from different sources seem to coincide, such as the Col. "ordering" Johnny (or other boys) to be purchased for pedophilia and child *advertiser censored*.

A big ordeal was made on the other site about the Camp Caribou bag....many believed the pic was doctored or "enhanced." It does look to be enhanced but maybe that is just to help us see it better. What is the feeling here?
 

Dr. Doogie

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One question about the pictures of "Johnny" was who sent them to Norene. Evidently, that question has been answered. See the post by Tim white at:
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/08-...n.cgi.136.html
Here is the relevent quote:

"I am the one to first receive from Jimmy Gibson the FIRST 3 photos ever to be released of JOHNNY GOSCH since his kidnapping in Des Moines(Jimmy Gibson was in those too) and I then emailed those to Noreen Gosch,Jim Rothstein,Ted Gunderson,Michael Corbin,H Michael Sweeney,and John DeCamp--this happened on August 27,2006 and Noreen Gosch posted those first 3 photos the next day to her website,www.johnnygosch.com."

I have written about Tim White before in this thread - he is a kook who never has found a conspiracy theory that he did not believe. But more importantly, notice the date - August 27, 2006. Then check out the following link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia_tradecraft/message/5325
This post, dated June 19, 2006 shows that Tim White was acquainted with the notorious Patricia Johnson-Holm two months before he received the photos. So follow this timeline:

*June 19, 2006 - Tim White is familiar enough with Patricia Johnson-Holm to "introduce" her to another conspiracy kook.

*August 27, 2006 - Tim White receives anonymous email containing the first three photos of "Johnny" and two other boys. Later, someone claiming to be "Jimmy Gibson" claims to have sent them to White, who then forwarded them to DeCamp, Gunderson, Rothstein and Noreene.

*August 28, 2006 - Noreene posts the pictures on her site.

*Approximately two weeks later - Noreene is contacted by someone claiming to be the mother of one of the boys in the picture: Patricia Johnson-Holm. Patricia later claims that the third boy in the picture is a friend of her son who was kidnapped at the same time: Jimmy Gibson. At first, Johnson-Holm's name is not released because she did not want the "publicity" that this case would generate. Once her name became known, this rationale is shown to laughable since PJH hosts a cable-access TV show and runs a website forum promoting her delusions of being the rightful heir to the crown of England and that she is the reincarnation of an E.T. alien who died in the crash at Roswell.
Noreene and PJH appear together on Jeff Renses internet radio show to tell their story. During the show, PJH claims to have never have heard of the Franklin Conspiracy / Pedo ring until the pictures with "Johnny" and her son were posted by Noreene. Again, she is proven to be a liar since she had attended and spoken at many conspiracy conferences where she shared the stage with John DeCamp and Ted Gunderson where they spoke about...the Franklin Conspiracy.

*In the weeks that followed - Noreene is contacted by numerous supporters who warn her of PJH's past history of kookiness. Noreene never publicly repudiates her claims that PJH is the mother of the boy in the picture, instead she requests that all issues of Patricia's credibility be addressed to PJH herself. When pressed to explain contradictions in her story, PJH concocted even more bizarre tales of stolen twins and alien abductions.

So, the important thing about the above timeline is that White and PJH knew each other prior to White receiving the pictures. White receives and sends the pictures to Noreene. And, in what may be the greatest coincidence in human history, the pictures just happen to also have the image White's friend PJH's son in them. Yet, PJH, who knew FC investigator Tim White and spoke at the same conferences a FC investigators DeCamp and Gunderson, never had heard of the conspiracy until she saw the pics on Noreene's site.

And these are the people who Noreene has surrounded herself with to bolster her claims. She is being used by conmen and kooks who have parasitically fed off of any credibility she had in the past. I believe that she is a victim, but she MUST help herself by ridding herself of these fools. No one else can help her.
 

Eire

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it also proved that PJH's son is alive and well, was never missing and as put a great deal of distance between himself and his mother? It that where the stolen twin thing came in to being?

Isn't PJH or one of her associates also associated with David Icke? He of the lizard people conspiracy? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.
 

Dr. Doogie

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it also proved that PJH's son is alive and well, was never missing and as put a great deal of distance between himself and his mother? It that where the stolen twin thing came in to being?

You are correct. She claims that she had twins at birth, but one was stolen by "them" and she was never told about his existence. Then her teenage son David was kidnapped by "them" and when she located him at some trailer where he was being held, "they" returned not David, but the twin who they claimed to be David. And since she had a son claiming to be David, the police would not investigate the case further - this is how she explained why there was no record of anyone by her son's name listed as missing.

Not that this tall tale needs any refuting, but why would "they" have kept and raised the stolen twin - just so they could switch them at a later date for the purpose of...hmm, well I guess, no purpose? And how did she determine years later that there had been a twin when she was unaware of it at the birth? And why did this twin story start out not as twins, but as a story that her son had been cloned, then replaced with the clone? (She had told that story to friends, then changed to the twin story which she felt was more believable.)

Isn't PJH or one of her associates also associated with David Icke? He of the lizard people conspiracy? I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

I do not know about an Icke connection, but PJH is into the "reptilians from space" kookfest (the Reptilians are part of the conspiracy against her, along with the Jesuits, the Zionists, the Mormons, the Republicans, the British Royal Family, the Scientologists, the New World Order, the Illuminati, the Bildebergs, the Rothschilds, the Council on Foriegn Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Council of Rome, ad absurdum).

Ted Gunderson posted on his website (until it was shut down because he did not pay the bill) that many missing children are being used as slave labor by the Reptilians at underground mines at Area 51. This pedo/Reptilian connection seems to show up a lot in the extreme conspiracy circles. It certainly doesn't help the case of the more "moderate" conspiracy theorists that their very "experts" that they rely on for information often dabble in this nonsense also.
 

Eire

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Thank you, Dr. Doogie. You wouldn't happen to have an aspririn or six handy would ya? That made my head hurt.

Icke is of the reptilians from space brigade. He once claimed to be the son of God or a reincarnation of Jesus Christ or some such. He's also a big believer in the pedo/slave ring orchestrated by the reptiles. Chances are, they're associated in some way.
 

Dr. Doogie

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I should state that I recognize that everyone here probably realizes that Patricia Johnson-Holm in nothing more than a mentally-ill conspiracy *advertiser censored* who has no legitimate connection to Johnny Gosch. I bring her up again only to re-emphasize the point that Noreene has chosen to surround herself with people such as Holm, Gunderson and White. She has refused to address legitimate issues concerning her acquaintances. Her statement that Holm is the mother of a boy in the picture has never been retracted or qualified. Her site still offers up Gunderson as a respected ex-FBI agent, not the kook who believes that lizards are kidnapping our children. She continues to accept information from Tim White as factual instead of realizing that he is a jibbering buffoon.

It is in this light that people make statements that Noreene must be mentally ill. It is not to be cruel or to try and dismiss her claims with specious accusations of insanity - it is to try and explain her actions in light of the obvious problems with her associates. I see only two options: (1) She has some sort of diminished capacity to distiguish fact from fancy brought on by the ongoing stress of her situation (the mental illness explaination) or (2) she is not smart enough to see that she is being duped by these nuts (the stupid explaination). I do not see Noreene as stupid, so by default, her mental health must come into question. What I cannot do is give a moment's credence to theories proposed by clowns who also expouse Reptilian conspiracy plots.
 

Roy Harrold

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Thanks, Doc!

There's also the problem of the lies Noreen told about how & when she received the photos. From the Des Moines Register:
"By LEE ROOD
REGISTER STAFF WRITER
September 13, 2006

Dated photos that surfaced late last month of three boys who were bound and gagged pre-date the disappearance of Johnny Gosch, a Florida investigator said today.

Noreen Gosch, the mother of the 12-year-old who disappeared in 1982, has been adamant that at least one close-up photo of an adolescent boy alone on a bed is of her son shortly after his abduction. She said she believes her son is also in another photo that shows three bound boys lying on a bed.

However, Nelson Zalva, an investigator for the FloridaState's Attorney's office, said he is certain the photos are identical to ones he investigated in the late 1970s — prior to Gosch's disappearance.

Zalva said he was working for the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Department at the time.

Gosch's mother and several other people received the photos the last
weekend in August, which prompted local and federal authorities to pursue them as a new lead in the long-cold case.

Noreen Gosch told the Des Moines Register shortly afterward that she found copies of the photos on her doorstep the morning of Sunday Aug. 27. However, e-mail files of photos that she forwarded to a former New York detective who had been helping her with the case show she received them Aug. 26."

For me, the most disturbing thing about this case is that Noreen Gosch and her "investigsators" - Tim White, John DeCamp, Ted Gunderson and Jim Rothstein - have continually attempted to make heroes out of convicted child molester Paul Bonacci while simultaneously disparaging legitimate law enforcement personnel that actually investigate and generate arrests of predatory sex-offenders.

Paul Bonacci is not the only sex offender being treated like a hero by the Gosch conspiracy promoters - Rusty Nelson, a convicted child pornographer, and Paul Bishop who was arrested in 2005 for possession of child *advertiser censored* after detectives received complaints that he was holding drinking & drugs parties for teen boys in his home, both receive the friendship, legal assistance, aid and comfort of John DeCamp, Ted Gunderson and other members of the conspiracy theorist community.

People who claim to be defenders of victimized children, but shelter, protect and admire confessed kidnappers and convicted child molestors and child pornographers, are frankly full of .

a little reality check -

# of arrests for sex crimes, resulting from Noreen Gosch's investigations 1983-2004 = 0
# of arrests for sex crimes, resulting from legitimate law enforcement investigations, 1983-2004 = 4,105,000 (rounded by thousands) (US figures)

 

rbeck

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Why are people so hung up on this Patricia Holmes lady? She is so irrelevant to anything she should be ignored altogether.she maybe a little weird but so what? Probably the only reason Mr Gosch listens to her is shes just being open minded and nice to the lady.I cant understand why Noreens association with Patricia is such a concern who cares?. can you imagine all the strange people Noreen has had to deal with over the years Patricia is just another one. I have heard Noreen talk about some guy who helped her write her book, he only contributed a few pages, then came back and tried to sue Noreen for copyrights to her book talk about a parasitic conman. Recently Mrs Gosch had to post something on her website about some moron mis quoting her on the rigorous institution message board website. I hope you are not talking about Ted or John Decamp when you mention parasitic cooks which of course they are not
 

Dr. Doogie

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Why are people so hung up on this Patricia Holmes lady? She is so irrelevant to anything she should be ignored altogether.she maybe a little weird but so what? Probably the only reason Mr Gosch listens to her is shes just being open minded and nice to the lady.I cant understand why Noreens association with Patricia is such a concern who cares?.

I agree that PJH is not a factor in Johnny's disappearance, but she is a factor in the question of "Should we believe what Noreene has said?" The fact that Noreen cannot seem to dismiss PJH's claims shows a tendency to believe anything that "validates" NG's theories. This brings all of what NG has to say into question.

I hope you are not talking about Ted or John Decamp when you mention parasitic cooks which of course they are not

I am still on the fence about DeCamp who does not seem to have drank the kook kool-aid...yet. I will continue to give him some benefit of doubt until I have reason to do otherwise.

However, I specifically do mean Gunderson who has shown himself to be a nutjob many times over. Yes, he was a special agent for the FBI for fifteen years which would normally give him some credibility, but when he writes on his website that children are being kidnapped to work as slaves for the Reptilians in secret mines under Area 51, he loses any credibility in my book. He needs to put on his tin-foil hat and retire to his backyard bunker to await the alien invasion - he is useless as any sort of authority on more "earthly" tragedies as missing children.
 

Roy Harrold

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It is important to understand that some, if not most, self-proclaimed "human-trafficking" "experts" are frauds:

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/31/fake-interpol-hit-man-arrested-in-colorado.htm

"David Race Bannon, who wrote a book claiming to be a former Interpol "hit man" and collects fees for speaking engagements and training courses based on that claim, has been arrested and charged with criminal impersonation, computer crime and attempted theft.

Bannon, author of the book "Race Against Evil - - The Secret Missions of the Interpol Agent Who Tracked the World's Most Sinister Criminals," solicited fees of more than $3,000 for two-day training courses on human trafficking, according to the Colorado Department of Public Safety.
The Colorado Bureau of Investigation checked with U.S. National Central Bureau of Interpol, the Interpol General Secretariat, and other Interpol member countries to determine that Bannon's credentials were bogus. "Interpol's General Secretariat in Lyon has no record of David Race Bannon having been employed and no knowledge of individuals mentioned in Mr. Bannon's book. Interpol exists to facilitate the exchange of information between the world's law enforcement agencies and to provide analysis of criminal data and other services. Accordingly, the claims in Mr. Bannon's book can only be seen as deceptive and irresponsible fantasy," according to a statement from the Interpol General Secretariat"

Human trafficking and sex slavery are real, but they are matters best dealt with by legitimate law enforcement personnel & agencies, not by self-proclaimed "independent" "experts".
 

iowa gurl

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I do not blame Noreen for grasping at each and every glimmer in Johnny's case, wacky or not. What if that one unturned lead is what could lead to real answers on what happened to Johnny.

What is really whacked is that this innocent boy vanished a quarter of a century ago and she has been left to chase ghosts for all this time.

I also think Noreen absolutely and positively handled the PJH fiasco appropriately. Noreen is not and did not bad mouth her she simply referred people to the source. Dont shoot the messenger.

Cant we all give this poor mom a break.
 

rbeck

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I specifically do mean Gunderson who has shown himself to be a nutjob many times over. Yes, he was a special agent for the FBI for fifteen years which would normally give him some credibility, but when he writes on his website that children are being kidnapped to work as slaves for the Reptilians in secret mines under Area 51, he loses any credibility in my book. He needs to put on his tin-foil hat and retire to his backyard bunker to await the alien invasion - he is useless as any sort of authority on more "earthly" tragedies as missing children.

can you be specific about your nutjob claims? Ive followed his career very well and I dont see a nut job.I have friends that worked with Ted. Ive met him before. been to 2 speaches hes done. seen a bunch more hes done over the years. listened to his old radio talk show from 1998 and I dont see a nutjob? by the way Ted doesnt edit or author his website whoever created his site for him probably threw in an alien reptile ufo reference on there he barely knows how to check his email he admits hes computer illiterate most people over 80 years old are anyway.
Ill correct you on one more thing Ted has 28 years in the FBI from 1951-1979 not 15 years. Ill answer anymore questions about Mr Gunderson if you want no problem.
 
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