IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[shadowraiths]

For those who think white middle class kids don't get abducted off our streets:

Three years after their short walk for a frozen snack became every parent's nightmare, the two Toledo teens forced to spend 10 days having sex with strangers for money will appear tonight on ABC's midweek news magazine, Primetime Live.

[...]

But the special fails to put Kimberly and Carol's case in full perspective as part of the interstate sex ring uncovered by federal law enforcement in 2005.

The television program doesn't mention that those responsible for kidnapping and exploiting the Toledo teens were only three of 31 people charged after an FBI investigation in 2005 showed teens were being shuttled across Ohio lines for sex in truck stops, motels, and highway welcome centers. It also doesn't note that Kimberly and Carol were only two of nine Toledo girls forced into sexual slavery.

Full article:click here

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Concerning the composite drawing of the suspect in the Garecht case: It is possible that the same man was involved both the Garecht and Gosch cases. I know that the Gosch camp is claiming that they have both a first and last name for this person and either have or will be turning it over to the authorities shortly. If it turns out that their info is correct and it leads to an arrest of this individual, then two (and possibly many more) cases may be solved.

I usually am suspect of Noreen's investigators, but I sincerely hope that they are right on this one.

 

[iowa gurl]

If the same man is involved in many abductions. I hope the man is found and brought to justice.
Whats up Doc?

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Whats up Doc?

A little dazed after my adventures in Wonderland.
I had to check my own driver's license to convince myself that I was neither Robert Wadman or Nelson Zalva.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

One of the more ridiculous red herrings that has happened in this case is the idea that the disgraced White House correspondent Jeff Gannon was in reality Johnny Gosch. After an initial rush of excitement by those who are prone to believe in the Franklin conspiracy, all but the most rabid of believers have dismissed this notion as untrue. A very small amount of research uncovered that Gannon was substantially shorter than estimates of Johnny's adult height and was several years older, making it unlikely that the two individuals were one person.

So who actually promoted the preposterous idea of Gannon is Gosch? Why, none other than that fountain of reliability, that source whose judgement should never be questioned, that man of undeniable truth: Ted L. Gunderson. Ted trumpeted his belief across the spectrum of friendly websites that he was as sure as he could be (absent a definitive DNA match) that Gannon was Gosch.

First a post from Gunderson ally / conspiracy gadfly Tim White:


"

100% Confirmation

Gannon/Guckert

Is Johnny Gosch
From Tim White
phantom469366@yahoo.com
3-7-5 ​

Last evening, I received a call from Ted Gunderson who is presently in Nebraska to interview a central figure in the Franklin Coverup case that is at the root of this "Jeff Gannon" story.
A confidential source of Ted's has - in a conversation with Ted yesterday afternoon - given a 100% confirmation that Jeff Gannon/Jim Guckert is very definitely Johnny Gosch.
Ted has the full backing and authority of the mother of Johnny, Noreen Gosch, to handle this - as only Ted would know how - along with the complete assistance of John DeCamp.
Ted and John DeCamp are the investigators and exposers of the Franklin Coverup. Ted has given me the greenlight to write and post this much so far but for very obvious reasons, I cannot go into greater detail at this time. As I have been told, more information will soon be forthcoming with the authorization to post when I receive it.
Tim White
Viet Nam Vet (Air Force)
Concerned Citizen "
(source URL: http://www.rense.com/general63/100.htm)​

So, Gunderson authorized White to release the above information.​

In the next snippet, Ted expresses his own opinion on the chances of Gannon being Gosch:​

"I'm convinced 99 percent that he is Johnny Gosch" says Ted Gunderson, a retired FBI agent who has been working on the Gosch case for more than a decade. "The only way I'd be 100 percent sure is if there was a DNA test or if he admitted it."
He bases his opinion on a confidential source from whom he claims to have videotape testimony that has him identifying Gannon as Gosch.
"My source has told me in the past that he has maintained contact with Johnny Gosch," says Gunderson. "Let's just say he's in a position to know. The kids are all in touch with each other. It's a bond they all share."
(source URL: http://educate-yourself.org/cn/goschgannohuntertrublingtale05apr05.shtml)​

Next, Gunderson vouches for the reliability of the source that provided the information:​

"Ted Gunderson, formerly the FBI Special Agent in Charge of the Los Angles office, and for more than 25 years a private investigator, appeared on the "Mysteries of the Mind" radio program March 8 where he confirmed that he has "a credible, reliable source" that says "Jeff Gannon" is indeed kidnapped paperboy Johnny Gosch.​

Gunderson claimed that "Gannon" has scar on right cheek; and Noreen Gosch has looked at the mark on "Gannon" in photographs and said it was the same as that as on her son.​

Gunderson agrees with analysis on the Internet that a birthmark (Gosch's is said to be in the "shape of South America") looks to have been removed from Gannon's chest. ​

Gunderson said, "I think Jeff Gannon is Johnny Gosch, and I think he planned this to get even with them for screwing up his life from age 12 on." Gunderson suspects Gannon's planned book, as reported by the Russian press, "will be truthful and he will expose these people."
(source URL: http://www.total411.info/2005/03/ex-fbi-gunderson-gannon-is-gosch.html)​

So, in summary: Gunderson promoted the idea that Gannon is Gosch, basing the conclusion upon testimony from a witness that he describes as "credible and reliable". But the conspiracy believers now admit that Gannon is not Gosch and the idea that they are the same person was a waste of energy. However, they continue to ignore that the "pied-piper" of this red herring was none other than the investigator who should never be questioned or doubted...even when he is wrong!​

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Ted Gunderson is one of the primary investigators involved with Noreen Gosch's search for Johnny. As a result, Noreen (and the believers of a Franklin conspiracy) put their ultimate faith into his opinions.

So...

Ted made the following statement in an interview 3/8/2005:

"GUNDERSON: Now, there's one of the kids that I talked to, I forget his name offhand. Jim something, who was one of the kids in the Franklin case that had been branded, --they branded these kids back in the eighties. He told me that Johnny Gosch was branded on his hip. Now I haven't seen any pictures of Jeff Gannon's hip, but it's not likely that he's gonna get rid of a brand-mark. They brand them just like cattle."

(The original URL is outdated. Here is a copy of parts of that interview: http://www.abovepolitics.com/forum/thread125549/pg1 )

"Jim something" is undoubtedly the illusive "Jimmy Gibson", a name that pops up all over this case as a victim of the ring, but curiously, each time he pops up, he seems to be a different person. And I find it hilarious that I can remember Gibson's name but Gunderson cannot. (Nice investigatin' there, Ted!)

Gunderson claims that "Jim something" says that Johnny is branded on his hip and that it is unlikely that such a brand could be removed. So, now lets move to a couple of pictures from Noreen's site (see below).
In the black & white picture, a brand on "Johnny's" arm is circled. But see the color version of the same picture (also from Noreen's site) - no brand. Also note that the brand does not appear in any of the other pictures of the boy that Noreen says is Johnny.

So either "Jim" only mentions the less-visible brand on Johnny's hip and neglects to mention the more-visible brand on his arm or the picture showing the brand on Johnny's arm is bogus (regardless if you believe in the conspiracy or not). I vote for a bogus picture.

But back to the issue at hand: Gunderson is the primary investigator for Noreen and would have (or at least should have) looked into these pictures prior to Noreen posting them on her site. Ted should have noted the discrepency in position (Arm? Hip?) and certainly should have noticed that the brand was missing in the color picture.

Once again, when Noreen needed someone to counsel caution before running blindly ahead, Ted and the other investigators let Noreen down. Once again, those who claim to "support" Noreen ended up harming her cause. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I know that ultimately Ted cannot be held accountable for the actions of his acquaintences, but this one is too funny to not post:

"TED GUNDERSON​

First let me say that Ted Gunderson, while i was at Area 51 and took pictures was very helpful and informative and i do NOT like lies that have been printed on various websites and message groups that are NOT ACCURATE about what i said about GUNDERSON... ​

On this website below : I would like a retraction ASAP!! from kate@grid.net

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/gunderson.htm


June 6, 1999 - I DID NOT IMPLY THIS AT ALL=GUNDERSON GETS INTO ALIENS, THE LIZARD TYPES WHO EAT HUMAN DNA, AT AREA 51 AND CONNECTS IT TO SATAN!

NOR DID I IMPLY THIS!!=Gunderson speaks about aliens taking DNA from children at Area 51: Source: Click to read all: http://www.wiolawa.com/area51.htm



I DID SAY THIS WHICH IS NOT CLOSE TO THE ABOVE!!
"...speakers who included Ted Gunderson.. who was speaking from his position of authority, having been an ex-FBI chief and retiring after 27 years of service.......they( Anthony Hilder and Ted Gunderson)began by showing a small segment of a true film( from Thomas C. who gave his life for us to have the information ) on both the creatures that were being created at Area 51 from our human DNA... and the Sacrificial Rites called Satanism.... in which our fellow humans are slaughtered..."

Furthermore, i would like to say that in talking with Ted.. i related some of my problems with people breaking into my house and threats to my life and my family... Ted was most helpful and told me techniques i could use to counter those KREEPS.... as example, by using a Medico lock on my doors... He also told me that he had 6 attempts on his life.... and since i was on the list of Robert Stephens website SHADY PINES .. with Art Bell and group.... he could not discuss the litigation between BELL AND HIMSELF.... .. exactly as Ted has stated on other sites..... I am extremely tired of Art Bell going after some of the best people who are going against the Satanists/Illuminati/Lizards... EXTREMELY TIRED OF ART BELL!!

another example is David Oates.... who Art Bell literally helped drum out of this country... there is hardly anyone the government lying thieves fear more than David Oates and his REVERSE SPEECH.. this is another flagrant example of BELL CAMPITIS...

TED also helped me by allowing me to camp in my 4runner near the Little Alien Inn trailer that he was staying in.. i had my gun.. but was very aware all night of being stalked by the LIZARDS..( actually every 15 minutes!!). Ted woke me up in the morning at 5 am.. and we went to the area i photographed- the LAST GATE.... which might also be called LIZARD CITY 51.... i appreciate his expertise in his discussion of his investigation into the Satanic Atrocities that he encountered in his films of a Satanic Community House Ceremony, that he and his FBI agents investigated and found a beheaded man only 1 hour old with 27 other bodies.... that report and film was given to the CIA .. or the CIAKARS and squashed!!..... he is a very brave man... and i appreciate his writing and help to all HU_MANITY to counter these horrible beings....who KILL in the name of RELIGION....
.. WIO LAW A"
(source URL: http://www.wiolawapress.com/ted.htm)​

Sadly, this is written by someone who is a friend of Ted and wishes to defend him against those who would attack him (I guess, from people like me). Maybe Ted should have a talk with him and tell him "Can we leave the lizard stuff off next time?" Yes, Ted seems have been running around the desert near Area 51 helping his friend ward off the lizard aliens who were trying to kill him every fifteen minutes or so.​

Does anyone recall my claims about Ted believing that lizard aliens were kidnapping children and holding them as slaves in tunnels under Area 51? And that the FC believers insisted that I must have misinterpeted what Ted said? The area on Ted's own site making reference to the lizards has been purged as has been a third-party site that marketed Ted's videos mentioning the same lizards. But evidently Ted was not as thorough in sanitizing his online history as he thought.​

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I wanted to pull forward these two posts to put all of my Gunderson links in one place.

For those who disagree with my assessment of Ted Gunderson as a nut-job, here is a link to an ad that TG placed in a magazine promoting his services:

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/gumediabig.htm

I was wondering how to stop those black helicopters from bombarding me with ELFs. Thanks, Ted, for coming to the rescue (for a hefty fee, of course).

Here is a link to a case where Gunderson has tossed around his "authority" as a retired FBI Special-Agent-In-Charge to support a convicted con-man in a fraud case in Utah:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/257/RipOff0257196.htm

Obviously, Ted's "authority" is available to the highest bidder.

 

[shadowangel]

"I'm convinced 99 percent that he is Johnny Gosch" says Ted Gunderson, a retired FBI agent who has been working on the Gosch case for more than a decade. "The only way I'd be 100 percent sure is if there was a DNA test or if he admitted it."

​

Even if a DNA test were conducted, and the results negative, Ted would claim that the CIA had tainted the test or somehow altered Gannon's chromosomes.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Even if a DNA test were conducted, and the results negative, Ted would claim that the CIA had tainted the test or somehow altered Gannon's chromosomes.

I do not know what Ted's current opinion about Gannon is - he seems to be strangely silent about it these days. I do know that most of the serious researchers of the Franklin conspiracy do not now believe that Gannon is Gosch, so a non-match would not surprise them. (And, yes, even though I do not believe that the conspiracy exists, there are sincere people who believe otherwise. It is the kooks like Gunderson and those who blindly follow him that I have specifically targeted for exposure.)

 

[shadowangel]

I It is the kooks like Gunderson and those who blindly follow him that I have specifically targeted for exposure.)

I fully support that effort. Anyone who refers to any of Gunderson's handiwork for guidance needs, in my opinion, to look at the totality of that handiwork. From his work with Helena Stoeckley in the Jeff McDonald murder trial, to the McMartin Preschool "tunnels", the Murrah Building bombing....

 

[Dr. Doogie]

The case of missing Johnny Gosch is one of the most complicated in recent history if you also include the Franklin conspiracy as part of the equation. It is so complex that when people unfamiliar with the case first look at it, it is easy for them to become overwhelmed and look for shortcuts to understand it. A common shortcut that people use is to check the qualifications of those who support or oppose a particular idea and assume that the position held by the most qualified advocate is the correct one.

At first glance, Gunderson's resume is quite impressive. It is only when you start to peel off the veneer and look at what is underneath that a true picture of who Ted really is begins to emerge. Those who espouse a belief in the conspiracy would have us only focus on the image of the "all-powerful Oz" and to ignore the man behind the curtain. Yet behind that curtain lies the true story - the story of someone who has shown a history of poor discernment and decisions.

The question of "What happened to Johnny?" will always focus on the Franklin conspiracy as long as Noreen is focused on the Franklin conspiracy. And Noreen will keep that focus as long as charlatans like Gunderson are allowed to manipulate the search. Expose the kooks like Ted and maybe, just maybe, we will discover what happened to Johnny.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I fully support that effort. Anyone who refers to any of Gunderson's handiwork for guidance needs, in my opinion, to look at the totality of that handiwork. From his work with Helena Stoeckley in the Jeff McDonald murder trial, to the McMartin Preschool "tunnels", the Murrah Building bombing....

I have stated in the past that Gunderson is the Al Sharpton of the conspiracy circles - anywhere there is a microphone, he will show up and give them an outragous quote. My above posts only scratch the surface of the questionable "investigations" that Ted has been involved with. Gunderson is considered an "expert" on Satanic ritual abuse and, not surprisingly, he seems to find "evidence" of that abuse every time he looks for it. He is either the most brilliant investigator of all-time or a grifter milking a Satanic panic that he helped create. Three guesses as to my opinion.

Shadowangel, thanks for the support!

 

[shadowangel]

Gunderson is happy to share the "truth"...at $29.95 per book and $59.95 for the DVD.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Gunderson is happy to share the "truth"...at $29.95 per book and $59.95 for the DVD.

Speaking of Gunderson's books and DVDs for sale, I came across the site describing Ted's belief in lizards kidnapping children for slave labor:

http://www.preferrednetwork.com/html/ted_gunderson.htm

See paragraph two. (I knew I had this URL somewhere! He-he!)

Time for the Doogie dance!
:bananapowerslide:

 

[shadowangel]

Above and beyond the pure non-sensical ideas put forth, the more infuriating part of that site is how Gunderson's beliefs are presented as fact.

Someone who didn't know any better could read that entry and believe Gunderson's version of the McDonald murders. Not to mention the McMartin Preschool abuse.

I have to wonder what skeletons will be found when Ted's closet is finally opened...

 

[iowa gurl]

[quote

Time for the Doogie dance!
:bananapowerslide:[/quote]


LOL Doogie!

 

[shefner]

I have not read here or posted in quite some time and have spent a good bit of time this morning playing "catch-up." I must say Dr. Doogie, you are something else. I was one of those who founded the new website that you mention above although I am not a moderator, thank heavens for that.
The site was created for those who believe in the Franklin Conspiracy and Coverup. We never imagined that those who don't believe a word of it would come on board to disrupt things. Its all fine by me....I'm beginning to lose interest anyway.

The reason is because extreme believers and extreme disbelievers have one thing in common.....ugliness. Sad but true.

I have had a horrible experience involving those closely related to the Gosch case. Wow...I hate to admit it but these people have some serious problems spotting the truth. They are easily deceived and its scary. This has been quite a blow to me since I have followed the Gosch and Franklin cases for years. I have been a sincere defender of Noreen and her investigators. Now I am questioning all I have believed and thats a tough pill to swallow.

This is a big story....but its so convoluted that I'm not sure if the real truth will ever be found.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I have had a horrible experience involving those closely related to the Gosch case. Wow...I hate to admit it but these people have some serious problems spotting the truth. They are easily deceived and its scary. This has been quite a blow to me since I have followed the Gosch and Franklin cases for years. I have been a sincere defender of Noreen and her investigators. Now I am questioning all I have believed and thats a tough pill to swallow.

Shefner:

I know that you have stated that you feel that you have been mistreated and attacked here and on other sites. I assume that you consider me as one of the attackers. Please believe me when I say that nothing I have said here or at other sites was meant as an attack on you personally. I strongly disagree with many of the positions that you and others have expressed concerning the Franklin conspiracy, but it is the beliefs that I have attacked, not you personally. I do not question your motivations or your sincerity. We just see the world very differently and discussing/debating/arguing those differences are actually meant to bring people closer, not farther apart.

I know that there is a growing discord among those who are active on the other site for precisely the same concerns that you have expressed in your above post. Unfortunately, the posters there are having difficulty reaching a healthy balance between creating a "victim-friendly environment" and not allowing themselves to be taken in by hoaxters or the unstable. I admittedly come at the issue from a more aggressive point of view than most, but any questioning of a "victim's" story is often met there with scorn and accusations of not supporting the victim. No sane person would advocate the vilifying of an actual victim of child abuse, but critical evaluation of a victim's story seems prudent in a world where there are some people who will do or say anything to be the center of attention. I have no idea if the "victim/whistleblower" at the center of this controversy is legitimate or a fraud, but enough contrary evidence has surfaced to warrant an honest evaluation of his story. Your desire to weigh the evidence should not be viewed as disloyalty to any person or cause.

Another factor that should lead the believers of the conspiracy to critical evaluation of all evidence and testimony is the potential for disinfo. Disinformation is never presented as the complete opposite of the truth - it is offered as a shade of the truth with just enough lie mixed in to confuse the public. Thus, if the bad guys want to screw with the believers and muddy the works, what better way would exist than to provide the disinfo through a self-described "victim". The natural defense to critically evaluate evidence is overcome by the desire to welcome a victim of abuse - especially when the victim's story seems to confirm the believer's world-view. And the bad guys win.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I have not read here or posted in quite some time and have spent a good bit of time this morning playing "catch-up." I must say Dr. Doogie, you are something else.

I assume that you are referring to my posts about Ted Gunderson. These posts are designed to bring forward what I feel are important bits of information about Ted that people who believe in the FC would rather not be discussed. One important thing about my posts is that they are linked to Ted's own websites, his associates' websites or direct quotes from Ted himself that appeared on "pro-Ted" sites. I specifically did not post info from sites that are "anti-Ted" (which would be unfair). By looking at what Ted and his associates are saying, it provides a clear view of who Ted is. And it is not a pretty picture.

The site was created for those who believe in the Franklin Conspiracy and Coverup. We never imagined that those who don't believe a word of it would come on board to disrupt things.

I entered the new website under a misconception - I thought that it existed to freely discuss the Franklin Conspiracy. It was quickly pointed out to me that its purpose was not to provide a forum for completely open discussion about the pro's or con's of the case, but to provide a forum for believers-only to share info. My intention was never to "disrupt" the site, but it was to provide a counterpoint to what I believe is a one-sided viewpoint that is being presented there. I believe that you will see that once the site's purpose was explained to me, the tone of my posts changed.

It may surpise many here and there that I do not completely reject everything that is discussed as being part of the Franklin conspiracy. Conspiracies among pedophiles do exist. Organized rings of pedophiles probably do kidnap children, abuse them and film it for their perverted enjoyment. Some of those chldren are certainly murdered after their "usefullness" to the pedophiles is over. And some complicity by people in positions of power may very well exist.

It is the all-encompassing reach of the big Franklin conspiracy that leaves me scratching my head. To believe in this conspiracy at its biggest form is to believe that virtually all elected officials at virtually all levels of government are either complicit or compromised in some manner. No Congressperson, no military officer, no member of a Presidential Cabinet, no one has the personal integrity or courage to stand up and loudly shout from an inside position that our government is kidnapping and brainwashing our children to become the sex-slaves of the elite. With the high-level of partisanship that exists today in Washington, why wouldn't a Democratic congressperson leap at the chance to expose the GOP as a bunch of child-molesters? And even ignoring politics, I cannot believe that not one person in a position to be aware of this conspiracy (if it exists) would not stand up and shout this from the rooftops. Instead, it is one ex-FBI agent, one ex-detective from NY and one ex-state congressman who are the most authoritative spokesmen for the conspiracy - all people who are not "insiders" to the info, but researchers from the outside.

The reason is because extreme believers and extreme disbelievers have one thing in common.....ugliness. Sad but true.

As someone who has been accused of being an apologist for child-molesters (at best) and of actually being certain individual members of the conspiracy (at worst), I know what you are talking about. It is sad that people cannot discuss this case without that discussion degenerating into namecalling and accusations toward the participants. For any times that I have been guilty of this, I apologize.