ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 69

[Montecore1]

I agree it's not "nefarious" but the conflict of interest exists & needs to be resolved IMO. Perhaps the decision has been made to keep AT but the victims she has represented on other matters would need to agree, wouldn't they?

AT's latest pending case with the victims mom (are we not allowed to say her name even though it has been made public?) anyway that case/arrest was Nov 19th so its very recent and Im sure AT was just getting started with the defense of this lady. Does/should that make any difference that its a new case thats just going thru the court system? IDK...

 

[SRWCF]

Re a "strong motive"

How would anybody know how a twisted mind works?

After all, only the perp knows, and there are cases when even he/she is oblivious what made them act in particular way.

Facts/evidence count.

JMO

I agree with you. Again, what I'm saying is that IF (and that's a big if) all LE has on him is the DNA on the knife sheath, then the prosecution is likely going to also have to present some type of motive to the jury as to why he should be found guilty. Like you said, facts/evidence count, and as it now stands, there is precious little of that to go on.

 

[Ceska]

I'm not sure if it is common practice for PDO of Idaho to contract out cases to private firms. MOO. The poster I was responding to deleted post or it was deleted. Pro bono sure, only can't see any one coming forward to offer that somehow...MOO

I don't know, but I sort of doubt that the state would contract out cases like that. I think that the defendant would be the one who would seek out a private attorney. Even some very well-known attorneys will agree take those high profile cases, and will do it pro bono.

 

[Bogbacal2]

Hope it’s ok to be asking this so late in the game, and is completely off topic for this thread but was reviewing photos again and noticed a vent on the floor by the sliding glass door upstairs in one of the bedrooms as well as the downstairs sliding glass door. I see no other floor vents throughout the house except these two. Just thinking he could have scraped his shoe or fibers could have gone down into the vent, as well as blood.
I don’t recall there was a previous discussion, sorry for the repeat of it has!

 

[jepop]

Based on what we know so far from the affidavit and subsequent search warrant of his apartment, if that information was all LE had on him, to me it wouldn't be enough to convict him. IMO, a strong motive would need to be presented in conjunction with the DNA evidence found in order to convince an entire jury.

Like you, I think he killed because he wanted to kill (I think he wanted to introduce some excitement into his sad life). But I think a jury will want more than that. They will want a stronger motive if there is not a lot of DNA evidence to prove he was there. It's very possible there will be one of more jurors who will introduce doubt into the jury.

BBM.The evidence outlined in the PCA wasn't intended to be enough to convict him, it was intended to, and certainly was, enough to arrest him on probable cause. MOO. The items removed from the appartment are still in the process of being examined for their evidentiary value, so still an unknown. ETA: There is potentially a lot of evidence there, especially computer related and digital. Then there is additional forensics on phone, his car, the scene.

IDK, but in the absence of a reasonably conjectured motive (for eg money, relationship conflict) evidence of who did it and how it was done is everything. I don't think there will be much solid evidence of motive, but you never know I guess. IMO, the who and the how will end up being integral to this case. Not the why. MOO


PCA evidence and Return Service of Warrant

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

 

[CityKid]

Hope it’s ok to be asking this so late in the game, and is completely off topic for this thread but was reviewing photos again and noticed a vent on the floor by the sliding glass door upstairs in one of the bedrooms as well as the downstairs sliding glass door. I see no other floor vents throughout the house except these two. Just thinking he could have scraped his shoe or fibers could have gone down into the vent, as well as blood.
I don’t recall there was a previous discussion, sorry for the repeat of it has!

I don't remember a mention of these here! I think those are heating vents (not a style I've ever lived with, so maybe someone else can confirm), which makes the HVAC visit more intriguing. Great sleuthing!

 

[jepop]

I don't know, but I sort of doubt that the state would contract out cases like that. I think that the defendant would be the one who would seek out a private attorney. Even some very well-known attorneys will agree take those high profile cases, and will do it pro bono.

Those were my thoughts too

ETA: BBM

 

[Cedars]

Based on what we know so far from the affidavit and subsequent search warrant of his apartment, if that information was all LE had on him, to me it wouldn't be enough to convict him. IMO, a strong motive would need to be presented in conjunction with the DNA evidence found in order to convince an entire jury.

Like you, I think he killed because he wanted to kill (I think he wanted to introduce some excitement into his sad life). But I think a jury will want more than that. They will want a stronger motive if there is not a lot of DNA evidence to prove he was there. It's very possible there will be one of more jurors who will introduce doubt into the jury.

I agree, I think every case I've followed has presented some kind of motive, even though it seems to me it's often more like an excuse. In one case they brought evidence of a fight with a girlfriend, that seemly caused the suspect to go out and rape and murder a stranger.

However, I think the absence of motive can be used as a defense (it seems Alex Murdaugh will use it). So, although evidence of a motive is not proof in the prosecution's case, it undermines the 'no motive' defense.

Also, jurors are not necessarily psychologically savvy, or think deeply about things. However a motive superficially answers the disturbing question of why did these particular victims die?

Obvious, the motive for BK was not money, so it was something related to emotion. If they can find evidence of stalking, they will say he was romantically obsessed with whomever he was stalking. It may well be true in this particular set of circumstances, although not at the deeper level of why a romantic obsession would lead to murder.

JMO

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Florida did that for the Casey Anthony case but I remember Baez had to bring in another lawyer as first chair because he was not DP qualified. I have no idea how many lawyers are both death penalty qualified and licensed to practice in Idaho.

There are exactly 13 public defenders in the entire state of Idaho qualified to act as lead counsel in capital cases. Anne Taylor is the only one in all of north Idaho.
https://pdc.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/IdahoCapitalCounselRoster20221215.pdf

Those interested can read more here:
Capital Defending Attorney Qualifications and Roster

And for those interested in better understanding exactly what that means in a state the geographic size of Idaho, you can look at a map of Idaho’s judicial districts here:
Idaho's District Courts | Supreme Court

HTH & MOO!

EBM: Moscow, where the quadruple murder took place, is in Latah County. My apologies for forgetting to include that important detail.

 

[al66pine]

ID. Deaths, Other Stabbings. Can LE Agree? Reporter: Dismissed?

This was discussed in one of the first threads, before BK was arrested and police dismissed the connection.

Police dismiss rumors that Idaho student stabbings connected to unsolved Oregon case

Two weeks after a grisly quadruple murder of four college students, detectives have shot down a number of speculations, including rumors that the murders may be tied to unsolved crimes in Oregon and Washington.

www.kptv.com

@BeginnerSleuther Thanks for your response w link.
My post responded to this one by @RTC:
"Now that they have a suspect BK, can they agree he is not a suspect on the other two stabbing cases in the vicinity and on the 13th??"

Re-reading my post, I see it could have been clearer, so thanks for providing link. My post could and should have said, re @RTC ’s post:
Assuming "they" are Moscow PD & ID st. police, w whom would they AGREE that BCK is not a suspect in WA. & OR. cases?
AFAIK, no LE agency in those two other cases have said publicly, we have eliminated BCK as a suspect (but I could have missed such a stmt).
How could Moscow PD & ID st. police agree w something WA & OR LE did NOT SAY.

Another point: use of word “DISMISSED”.
In pre-arrest Nov. 28 linked story, reporter used the word “dismissed” but quoted ID st. police PIO Snell & a Moscow PD press release (in full in footnote, and snipped here):
---“we don’t believe at this point in time … are actually linked” and
--- “there does not appear to be any evidence to support the cases are related.”

OP noted "...police dismissed the connection" but I read these ^ phrases differently, short of dismissing a connection between the cases. Imo, the PIO & Moscow press release said, there could be a link, but we just don’t know now.

Not saying it’s relevant to BCK’s case, but a reminder to analyze phrasing in MSM. Imo jmo moo

___________________________________________
* Police dismiss rumors that Idaho student stabbings connected to unsolved Oregon case
Headline: “Police dismiss rumors that Idaho student stabbings connected to unsolved Oregon case."
Story:
”The idea that the quadruple homicide was connected to other unsolved stabbings in the states of Idaho, Washington, and Oregon was later dismissed by Snell.”
“We don’t believe at this point in time that … these murders are actually linked to two other knife murders that have occurred both in Pullman [Washington], as well as Oregon,” Snell said.’
BTW, Snell, PIO w. ID st. police Snell, is referring to two other crimes in two OTHER states.
AND
"“There have been numerous media inquiries about a 1999 double stabbing in Pullman, Washington, and the 2021 double stabbing (with one death) in Salem, Oregon,” Moscow police said Friday in a press release. “While these cases share similarities with the King Street homicides, there does not appear to be any evidence to support the cases are related.”

 

[WingsOverTX]

These are good points. But the court approved AT's withdrawal from the parent cases, and her appointment to represent BK. The Idaho Public Defender can point to court approval, and courts don't do PR. So where is this clarification to come from?

At some point the PD's motions and supporting documentation and testimony (if any) will be available to satisfy any public curiosity about this. They are public documents, but they may cost money to obtain. There is nothing urgent about this issue, that I see. If BK isn't concerned about it and the judge isn't concerned about it, I'm not inclined to demand a detailed explanation.

How would you feel if it becomes an issue later in these proceedings or at appeal, if it is used as an issue then?

Just because the courts don't have to explain & will only release docs that do so at cost, it doesn't make it right. Transparency is important. Using precedent & status quo may satisfy you but others like me maybe not so much.

Understanding the process is great but having answers that satisfy non-insiders is not an unreasonable ask.

Transparency. Criminal courts could err on the side of providing more of this without jeopardizing justice. It's mostly procedural precedent in most jurisdictions that locks the public out to the public's detriment IMO.

JMO

 

[jepop]

Him stalking them means he was planning the murder IMO. PCA isn't just contradicting media stories IMO. They have a lot more than the DNA according to the PCA, and they have a lot more than the PCA. If you want a glimpse into when LE has on BK, I would suggest checking out discovery for any high profile case like CW or PF. It's like hundereds of pages of info. Someday we will see BK's. So a lot of speculation is IMO unnecessary, because we really do not have all the info IMO.

BBM. Well said. couldn't agree more.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Like you, I think he killed because he wanted to kill (I think he wanted to introduce some excitement into his sad life). But I think a jury will want more than that. They will want a stronger motive if there is not a lot of DNA evidence to prove he was there. It's very possible there will be one of more jurors who will introduce doubt into the jury.

This is where a criminal profiler (FBI) or a forensic psychologist would come in at trial. I feel certain that the FBI and Moscow PD have already done work on this. An expert can explain to a jury his mental profile, what kind of criminal he is.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I don't know, but I sort of doubt that the state would contract out cases like that. I think that the defendant would be the one who would seek out a private attorney. Even some very well-known attorneys will agree take those high profile cases, and will do it pro bono.

As I've said, in PA top defense attorneys are asked to defend indigent people on trial for capital crimes.

 

[CGray123]

How would you feel if it becomes an issue later in these proceedings or at appeal, if it is used as an issue then?

Just because the courts don't have to explain & will only release docs that do so at cost, it doesn't make it right. Transparency is important. Using precedent & status quo may satisfy you but others like me maybe not so much.

Understanding the process is great but having answers that satisfy non-insiders is not an unreasonable ask.

Transparency. Criminal courts could err on the side of providing more of this without jeopardizing justice. It's mostly procedural precedent in most jurisdictions that locks the public out to the public's detriment IMO.

JMO

BK can't appeal a decision he made, as Dylann Roof has demonstrated. BK can reject AT as his counsel at any time. So far, he hasn't. There is no detriment to him, which is the legitimate public concern IMO. Where is the public detriment, in your view?

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

ID. Deaths, Other Stabbings. Can LE Agree? Reporter: Dismissed?

@BeginnerSleuther Thanks for your response w link.
My post responded to this one by @RTC:
"Now that they have a suspect BK, can they agree he is not a suspect on the other two stabbing cases in the vicinity and on the 13th??"

Re-reading my post, I see it could have been clearer, so thanks for providing link. My post could and should have said, re @RTC ’s post:
Assuming "they" are Moscow PD & ID st. police, w whom would they AGREE that BCK is not a suspect in WA. & OR. cases?
AFAIK, no LE agency in those two other cases have said publicly, we have eliminated BCK as a suspect (but I could have missed such a stmt).
How could Moscow PD & ID st. police agree w something WA & OR LE did NOT SAY.

Another point: use of word “DISMISSED”.
In pre-arrest Nov. 28 linked story, reporter used the word “dismissed” but quoted ID st. police PIO Snell & a Moscow PD press release (in full in footnote, and snipped here):
---“we don’t believe at this point in time … are actually linked” and
--- “there does not appear to be any evidence to support the cases are related.”

OP noted "...police dismissed the connection" but I read these ^ phrases differently, short of dismissing a connection between the cases. Imo, the PIO & Moscow press release said, there could be a link, but we just don’t know now.

Not saying it’s relevant to BCK’s case, but a reminder to analyze phrasing in MSM. Imo jmo moo

___________________________________________
* Police dismiss rumors that Idaho student stabbings connected to unsolved Oregon case
Headline: “Police dismiss rumors that Idaho student stabbings connected to unsolved Oregon case."
Story:
”The idea that the quadruple homicide was connected to other unsolved stabbings in the states of Idaho, Washington, and Oregon was later dismissed by Snell.”
“We don’t believe at this point in time that … these murders are actually linked to two other knife murders that have occurred both in Pullman [Washington], as well as Oregon,” Snell said.’
BTW, Snell, PIO w. ID st. police Snell, is referring to two other crimes in two OTHER states.
AND
"“There have been numerous media inquiries about a 1999 double stabbing in Pullman, Washington, and the 2021 double stabbing (with one death) in Salem, Oregon,” Moscow police said Friday in a press release. “While these cases share similarities with the King Street homicides, there does not appear to be any evidence to support the cases are related.”

BBM

I think that’s where some of the confusion is. MPD addressed a 1999 non-fatal double stabbing in which the suspect was quickly identified, tried, & convicted.

At that time, though, online sleuths, and therefore some reporters including a disreputable WS-unapproved source, were interested in a different unsolved fatal stabbing in WA (Sandra Ladd in Washougal, WA), not the 1999 Pullman case.

MOO, that’s where the confusion arose: MPD addressed one WA case and not the other.

MOO!

 

[MsBetsy]

Hope it’s ok to be asking this so late in the game, and is completely off topic for this thread but was reviewing photos again and noticed a vent on the floor by the sliding glass door upstairs in one of the bedrooms as well as the downstairs sliding glass door. I see no other floor vents throughout the house except these two. Just thinking he could have scraped his shoe or fibers could have gone down into the vent, as well as blood.
I don’t recall there was a previous discussion, sorry for the repeat of it has!

Yes, I think there's a chance trace evidence may have been found in vents. Hairs, fibers, and drops of blood are things that can end up in vents, especially in a case like this.

 

[DeDee]

I'm not sure I could answer that, it's kind of confusing.

"Has anyone made you promises or coerced you to act in this matter?"

What matter? The matter of your rights? The matter of filling out and signing the paper? The charges that have been brought against you? The actual acts committed?

The sentence could be "act in this (behavior) matter" or "caused you to act" in this (thing that was done) matter.

Who knows if someone said "You have to fill this out or we can't get you a trial." Coercion maybe, in his mind,, if he didn't want to fill it out.

Really poor wording, imo.

I have found much ambiguity within this entire case.

The portion requiring BK's initials in the blanks on the charging doc are seeking to know if BK understands his rights.
The next portion asks him to answer Yes or No to certain questions.




Although it may have a much deeper meaning for the suspect, o he is a sly one, the lack of his X in the box means, to me, perhaps, that he doesn't wish to reveal any possible promises or coercion, att:

"Has anyone made you promises or coerced you to act in this matter?"

Source, Page 2 and 3 https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/010523 Notification of Rights.pdf
(acronym att = at this time)

BK was a teacher. IME, he did not overlook the question. He ignored it on purpose and with intentions.

MHOO

 

[WingsOverTX]

BK can't appeal a decision he made, as Dylann Roof has demonstrated. BK can reject AT as his counsel at any time. So far, he hasn't. There is no detriment to him, which is the legitimate public concern IMO. Where is the public detriment, in your view?

I guess I missed proof that BK has been given options and has chosen AT. I thought the conflict was AT having represented victims, recently dropping one so she could take up BK's case. How is BK to intervene? How do we know he is even aware of these conflicts with 2 victims?

I can't argue the law as IANAL. But saying the courts would be breaking procedure & precedent by having someone inside the system publicly explain why an obvious conflict of interest has been satisfactorily resolved by all parties doesn't seem unreasonable. Unlikely perhaps, but not unreasonable.

Pardon my legal ignorance. I'm just pondering what I don't understand & unwilling to accept precedent in criminal courts as a default explanation about why we're all always stuck with "that's just the ways things are." But perhaps I misunderstood your point.

JMO

 

[ktm44]

Hope it’s ok to be asking this so late in the game, and is completely off topic for this thread but was reviewing photos again and noticed a vent on the floor by the sliding glass door upstairs in one of the bedrooms as well as the downstairs sliding glass door. I see no other floor vents throughout the house except these two. Just thinking he could have scraped his shoe or fibers could have gone down into the vent, as well as blood.
I don’t recall there was a previous discussion, sorry for the repeat of it has!

Technically, warm air is forced through them from the furnace. I have lived with them all my life and in theory, if you scraped a bloody shoe across register over the open duct work, there would be an obvious smear, although some may seep down it would be fairly obvious.

The duct work below them goes down a bit and angles to join other duct work that ultimately connects to the furnace and what may be found depends on how often the furnace ducts are cleaned and how well the occupants cleaned house. At best, mine collects quite a bit of pet hair and when my kids were young, I learned it also collected small Lego pieces, small toys, coind and other fabulous treasures. The register (grated part you see on the floor) are super easy to lift off so you access anything under it.

I haven't commented on the HVAC truck that some have mentioned because I didn't see it but I would sincerely hope that LE at least had them in to investigate the possiblity of the murder weapon being stuffed down a vent or the possiblity of other evidence. The knife large and unlikely to easily fit but would be worth a quick look.