ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 70

[Sister Golden Hair]

I received moderator permission to share 2 interesting thing from Paul Holes' book, Unmasked, chapter 12, location 3778 on my Kindle and the page is available via google book search.

The first thing is blind swabbing for dna (swabbing in unlikely places, and keeping in mind that the killer may sometimes put his mouth (yeah, I know, ick) or where salivary evidence may be found from the attack. I hope this was done extensively.

The second interesting thing was shaving the entire head to collect something that may have fallen out - spittle, an eyelash, shedding from the eyebrow, etc. I haven't seen this mentioned in the discussions, but I did stop joining in for January. when I saw this in the book, I thought I'd share. Hopefully this was something done, too. BK fur at the crime scene and Murphy's fur at BK's place would be one nice full circle imo jmo.

 

[Zella]

Perhaps, but the prosecutor can enter his mug shot into evidence as more indicative of his appearance closer to the time of the crime.

Oh for sure! I just have this mental image of him tweezing them down like some sort of 30s starlet, and it amused me more than it had any right to.

I think it would actually backfire on him if they tried to shape his eyebrows to be less distinctive and then the prosecution keeps showing pictures of his original brows. MOO

 

[jepop]

Oh for sure! I just have this mental image of him tweezing them down like some sort of 30s starlet, and it amused me more than it had any right to.

I think it would actually backfire on him if they tried to shape his eyebrows to be less distinctive and then the prosecution keeps showing pictures of his original brows. MOO

Yeah, a bit transparent. IMO, AT would advise against...

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Exactly as you say here...to what purpose? I'm trying to figure out if there is any benefit to the defense to question DM about her actions after the sighting. Does it contribute in any way to reasonably doubt the defendant's role in the murders...not that I can see. Does it change anything about the State's theory of the crime and its timeline...not really.

Questioning DM too vigorously could have potential negative consequences for the defense though. She's a young, frightened, possibly underage person who may/may not have been drinking or more (not sure of her age at the time of the murders) in a student house where people come and go. Jurors are supposed to stay objective, but we all know that they don't. If I was a defense attorney, I would likely ask a couple of short questions along the lines of, "Were you frightened? Was it dark?" and leave it to summation to explain that DM was frightened and possibly unsure of what she saw.

IMO defense is better off spending much more time attacking the solidity of the evidence (DNA on clasp of sheath, cell tower pings, certainty of white car seen in the vicinity is BK's car, etc.).

We discussed this earlier up thread, but I think that there are gentle ways to do this. And I would probably do it. jmo imo

 

[iamshadow21]

Think what you are saying here kind of speaks to why some on previous threads speculated that the prosecution may consider not calling DM, just in terms of what her testimony (and this is only assuming that the gist of her statement is represented in the PCA) might add to the whole, vs the risk of being put into question on cross examination. MOO

But now we have learned from @al66pine that the defense can impeach DM even if the prosecution don't call her, so to my mind that means the prosecution will probably call her. MOO

ETA: BBM

ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 70

Hmm What exactly can she say? That she didn't see any red flags? It's possible that DeSales University has asked faculty not to make comments to t he media, and refer all requests to their media contact. I think Ramslaand would glady comply.

www.websleuths.com

IANAL, or any kind of expert, but I think they'll call her, purely because it worked in Florida, in Bundy's trial for the Chi Omega house attack. Have you seen the sketch done from the witness? It's quite rudimentary, could be anyone, right? But put Bundy in profile, and it was obvious that she had seen him clearly enough to describe him to a sketch artist accurately.

If D has sat down with a sketch artist, which, I can't imagine she didn't, but we don't know for sure, and if she has been able to guide the artist to accurately depict what she saw, whatever that sketch looks like, if it bears a resemblance to the defendant, it's going to be compelling. And it doesn't have to stand alone. It's going to be part of the case as a whole that builds beyond reasonable doubt.

MOO

 

[RonSwanson33]

A hypothetical - if DM had slept through it all, and therefore had nothing at all to add to the case, would BK have been found? Or found, but much later? What do you all think?

Yes. They found his DNA.

 

[RonSwanson33]

His car, his cell phone, his DNA. Speculate all you want, but Ms. Public Defender can't make these facts disappear and there is no telling how much more LE has on him that we know nothing about.

Yes, she will question DM, but only a fool would attack the survivor of a mass murderer. The jurors will hold her actions against her client. She is too smart for that. Don't anticipate it.

I predict a plea rather than a trial. It is the only way to save his miserable life.

There are 3000 pages more discovery we don't know yet, so yeah. I also agree he will plea.

 

[RonSwanson33]

The defense would love to discredit DM's description of the person she saw leaving the King Street house on the morning of the murders. If she was drug/alcohol tested, and the results show that she was severely intoxicated, defense counsel could use that information to suggest that her ability to perceive and to remember was adversely affected.

But unless she admitted intoxication with an illegal substance in her initial interview, there would be no reason to force her to submit to testing. If she admitted to investigators that she was intoxicated with alcohol, the defense could use that of course, but if she is of age there's nothing illegal about that and without a high, tested BAC level the effectiveness of the issue would be marginal IMO.

I guess the defense could quibble about the definition of "bushy eyebrows" but with BK sitting in front of her, DM could respond, "I'm not sure what exact words I used to describe the face I saw to the investigator, but the eyebrows of the person I saw were a prominent feature of the face. In fact, your client's eyebrows are exactly what I would describe as prominent or 'bushy'." Not a tactic a smart defense attorney like AT would take IMO.

IMO it doesn't matter because they have his DNA and lots of other discovery so her seeing him isn't a make or break thing for the prosecution.

 

[RonSwanson33]

In PCA. DM's Description of Intruder's Eyebrows?

snipped for focus @Sister Golden Hair
LE has waaay more evd than set forth in PCA,* written to show basis for ARRESTING the suspect, not as comprehensive, all-encompassing evd. for CONVICTING.

Yes, the bushy EYEBROW issue is subjective to some extent and agreeing that BCK don't "measure up" to the ones you mentioned.

But, a parallel: when a witness --- 5 feet or 5'3 (IDK DM's exact height) --- describes someone as "tall" and the accused is "just" 6 feet, do we dismiss her description as inaccurate, because the accused is not professional basketball height? Or not even 7 feet tall?

BCK may not be nominated for the Bushy Eyebrow Club, but some or many would agree that his eyebrows are bushier than AVERAGE (esp'ly for his age) and would say DM's description is not inaccurate. imo

BTW, ^ post omitted one of the founding members of the Bushy Eyebrow Club: the late Andy Rooney, resident curmudgeon of CBS "60 Minutes" weekly news magazine. Image at link.

Andy Rooney - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

imo
__________________________________
FYI, not state-specific to ID:

Probable Cause - FindLaw

The 4th Amendment protects people from search and seizure without probable cause. Learn more at FindLaw's Criminal Rights section.

www.findlaw.com

Probable Cause Requirement

www.law.cornell.edu

Affidavit of Probable Cause Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

An affidavit of probable cause is a sworn statement, typically made by a police officer, that outlines the factual justification for why a judge should consent to an arrest or search warrant or why

definitions.uslegal.com

her description of BK is nominal in this case. This level of speculation isn't needed IMO because they have so many other things on him IMO.

 

[RonSwanson33]

The defense might want results of drug tests in hopes some trace of street drugs were found in any of the victims. This could help weave a theory that any random person along the lines in the procurement of drugs could have committed the crime. IMO in most people's minds there is a degree of sketchiness associated with street drugs including crime and mental/behavioral instability, and the defense would likely want to introduce "sketchy" characters into the lifestyles of the victims if possible. Anything to dilute the potency of evidence against the defendant.

Why would them having drugs in their systems matter at all? They are victims. IMO

 

[jepop]

Yes. They found his DNA.

...and his car on the street at the time of the crime,and his phone leaving his residence early morning on the morning of the crime, and returning to his residence in the early morning hours after the alleged time of the crime...so yes. ETA MOO

 

[Followfacts]

Did you mean Dylan?

Yes, Dylan.

 

[jepop]

IANAL, or any kind of expert, but I think they'll call her, purely because it worked in Florida, in Bundy's trial for the Chi Omega house attack. Have you seen the sketch done from the witness? It's quite rudimentary, could be anyone, right? But put Bundy in profile, and it was obvious that she had seen him clearly enough to describe him to a sketch artist accurately.

If D has sat down with a sketch artist, which, I can't imagine she didn't, but we don't know for sure, and if she has been able to guide the artist to accurately depict what she saw, whatever that sketch looks like, if it bears a resemblance to the defendant, it's going to be compelling. And it doesn't have to stand alone. It's going to be part of the case as a whole that builds beyond reasonable doubt.

MOO

The possibility that DM worked with a sketch artist immediately after is a great point. If that is standard procedure then she probably did! MOO

 

[Followfacts]

My prior basic and military service conditioning IMO BK has similar mindset to the quasi military groups he participated in, wanted to participate in, the interest in police work, physical conditioning kickboxing, boxing, people reporting his prior behavior and attitude desire to fight IMO. So it was likely violent, combative IMO, with Ethan and Xana 2nd floor near and in bedroom.
Missing time on his route/return to Pullman likely stashing knife, clothes for later pick up.
IMO it was about him and killing people more than anything else guys and girls in that house.
I don’t think he saw or heard Xana.MOO

Correction to last sentence, , saw or heard Dylan.

 

[Bogbacal2]

Earlier in in the thread Dr. Katherine Ramsland was mentioned as one of BK’s professors. Mentioned as well is a blog in Psychology Today that she writes called “Shadow Boxing”. There is a very interesting read titled “Contextual Cues for Predatory Targeting”

Contextual Cues for Predatory Targeting

Pattern repetition improves the speed and efficiency of victimizing.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[RonSwanson33]

It is was me, and LE asked me about someone's build, I wouldn't know where to start. If they said "muscular or athletic," that, to me, would be a leading question. "Anything on his face stand out?" Oh yeah, "bushy eyebrows."

Some examples, just speculating, but I assume this would be in the records of LE's interview with DM that will be shared with the defense in discovery.

Edited to extend final thought/sentence.

I really don't get all this speculation. Fat. Skinny. Tall short...beard, bald, black white.., I mean there are a million descriptors one could use and BK matches all of DMs descriptions of him. Also he is in jail until June at least and any person would not be happily sitting in jail awaiting a prelim trial if they were actually innocent IMO. 3000 pages yet of discovery we haven't seen. IMO.

 

[jepop]

There are 2 different versions of the probable cause affidavit in the quadruple murder of U of I college students. The one that was originally released reports that "suspect vehicle 1" goes past the 1122 home 4 times and it keeps turning around. It states that at one point, it appears to try to park in the parking lot but was unsuccessful. In the updated affidavit, it doesn't mention this at all, but it does report multiple sightings of the white Elantra from video cameras on his way home. The reason being is that it is believed that the vehicle that is seen passing by the residence 4 times and turning around a couple of times is actually the DoorDash driver. The driver seems unfamiliar with the area and is looking for the correct residence. I'm not sure if it is also a white sedan or it could be a different color car, but they are unable to discern the color due to it being so dark at 4:00 a.m.
Here is the link to the updated PCA: Read the FULL affidavit on Bryan Kohberger's arrest

BBM: No, There is only one version of the PCA, IMverystrongO.

The link you provide to the "updated PCA" goes to a Daily Mail article dated 01/06/2023. That article claims to have the full PCA attached, there is no mention of an "updated PCA". Unfortunately, neither is the full PCA attached as claimed by the Daily Mail.

The Daily Mail article shows what appears to be a copy of the PCA, where only the first two pages are numbered. Page 5 (unnumbered) ends with the suspect vehicle travelling westbound on "...Indian Hills Drive in Moscow at...". The next page, also unnumbered, begins "...approximately 10 miles from Moscow Idaho".(Full stop).

Does the sentence;...vehicle travelling westbound on "...Indian Hills Drive in Moscow at approximately 10 miles from Moscow Idaho" make sense to you?

IMO, Page 6 of the PCA is simply completely omitted from the PCA attached to this Daily Mail article.

The only version of the PCA is here: PP1-18 and including Page 6.

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - 122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf

pdfhost.io

The inaccurate Daily Mail article which claims to show the "full affadavit" but infact completely omits Page 6 and does not even number the pages after page 2 is here (as in your link):

Read the FULL affidavit on Bryan Kohberger's arrest

Idaho police have released a bombshell affidavit laying out their initial case against murder suspect Bryan Kohberger.

www.dailymail.co.uk

MOO

 

[maskedwoman]

I think the defense will be interested in how DM arrived at her descriptions. Were they spontaneous? Or were there leading questions asked by LE who interviewed her, thus helping her to determine the categories, for example with regard to body build. Did they show her any pictures or give her any information to help her with her descriptions? In Attorney Taylor's Discovery Request to the prosecution she requested disclosure of the identification process of any defendant that was being considered in the case.

Attorney Taylor's Discovery Request, January 10, 2023

13. Identification. Disclosure of whether a defendant, or any other person, was identified by lineup, show up, photo spread or similar identification proceeding relating to the offense charged, and production of any pictures utilized or resulting therefrom and the names, addresses and telephone numbers of all identifying witnesses.

https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/011023%20Request%20for%20Discovery.pdf

BBM

I don't see how they could have "led" her to describe anything resembling BK, as they didn't know about him until for weeks later. It is a useful investigative tool for LE to ask questions designed to help narrow the body types, ethnicity, height, as well as distinctive characteristics such as facial hair, tattoo, scars. It would be a total waste of their time to keep everyone in their suspect pool if the witness can tell them she saw a tall, muscular person who walked with a limp.

I am not surprised AT is doing her due diligence but, at the time she was describing that person, they didn't know enough to lead her. MOOooo

 

[Boxer]

We discussed this earlier up thread, but I think that there are gentle ways to do this. And I would probably do it. jmo imo

What gentle questions would you ask?

 

[Justice101]

I don't see how they could have "led" her to describe anything resembling BK, as they didn't know about him until for weeks later. It is a useful investigative tool for LE to ask questions designed to help narrow the body types, ethnicity, height, as well as distinctive characteristics such as facial hair, tattoo, scars. It would be a total waste of their time to keep everyone in their suspect pool if the witness can tell them she saw a tall, muscular person who walked with a limp.

I am not surprised AT is doing her due diligence but, at the time she was describing that person, they didn't know enough to lead her. MOOooo

Good points.

Yes, when they interviewed DM, she probably gave the best description she could possibly give given the lighting available, the angle, etc. This would probably not be used in the trial as true evidence, just to keep body types in mind when they were finding out about BK. He happened to fit the eye witness description factors. But if a suspect came up that was a short 250 lb man, then they could have moved on.

As tight lipped as LE was (and has to be now!) as well as the huge team of professionals working on the case, IMO they will find something just as incriminating and damning in the other evidence processed.