ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 70

[Cool Cats]

I used other university's libraries when I was in college and grad school. Not every library system has access to the same databases. For a seminar paper I had to do for my undergraduate history degree, I spent all day at another college's library using their databases that were unavailable to me at my college and were not accessible without a library.

I actually still use a friend's library card for another state to access databases the library I work for doesn't have subscriptions for and have emailed friends still in academia for them to take pity on me and download an article for me. I also still maintain alumni status at a university I graduated from for the sole reason that their library system has access to stuff my public library doesn't.

Research material isn't necessarily easily googled, so it's really not accurate to say it's all just online and could be accessed from anywhere. MOO

I suspect if BK was prowling around the Idaho campus, he had ill intent. But I wouldn't rule out that he had a legitimate purpose in being there, particularly the library.

WSU has a lot of criminal justice resources, incredible amount actually, but I guess it is possible that BK needed to access information at a different University's library.

But regardless of what he was doing there, it becomes the situation of - you can't exclude him.

If several witnesses saw him there it links him closer to the victims and shows possible stalking. It places him right in Moscow, not far from the victims' home and smack dab in the middle of the University his victims attended.

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

If DM is suddenly much more sure that BK was the intruder (as opposed to merely stating he has traits that are similar to those of the intruder), then I expect the defense to make much of how her memory became "enhanced".

Your choice of words ("address any discrepancies") sounds more benign than the process may be if her testimony changes drastically. Just because discrepancies are addressed doesn't mean the jury ends up with full faith in the witness. There's a reason they say a witness "has to be rehabilitated on cross".

But this is all speculation right now. We don't know that DM's testimony will change. We don't even know all of what she told LE, weeks before BK was named a suspect. I, for one, see no reason to be alarmed at this point.

I dont believe "her memory will become enhanced" or she will need to be "rehabilitated on cross."

If you watch trials you will see all the time how prosecutors keep witnesses on point with their testimony. The prosecution will even tell important witnesses what questions they will be asking them on the stand to get them comfortable ahead of time.

Often the prosecution or defense will give a witness a copy of their statements for them to refer back to if they are not remembering or there is a discrepancy. Like the witness says the time was noon but their written statement says 1:00pm.

It is also common for the prosecution to just remind the witness of their previous statement without even having to give them a written copy.

"You told police you saw such and such"

"In your statement you said such and such occurred."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yes, I remember, it was such and such I saw"

"Yes, it was closer to 1:00pm not noon"

 

[Sundog]

MOO don’t see anything in U of Idaho graduate programs that looks like criminology, so the library would almost necessarily be less useful to a phD student in criminology. WSU ranked 195th out of 2000+ criminology programs, would assume their library to be pretty good.

Programs Offered-College of Graduate Studies-University of Idaho

The University of Idaho offers graduate degrees from 47 departments

www.uidaho.edu

A doctoral student in criminology would likely need to pass exams in cognate fields in the social sciences, psychology, technology, perhaps law, medicine, etc., depending on the area of criminology that they were focusing on. So although WSU may have a good library in the field of crim, other disciplines might benefit from U of Idaho's library holdings.

 

[Boxer]

A doctoral student in criminology would likely need to pass exams in cognate fields in the social sciences, psychology, technology, perhaps law, medicine, etc., depending on the area of criminology that they were focusing on. So although WSU may have a good library in the field of crim, other disciplines might benefit from U of Idaho's library holdings.

During his first semenster?

 

[Zella]

WSU has a lot of criminal justice resources, incredible amount actually,

A library can have tremendous physical holdings in a field and still not have what you're looking for, including database subscriptions. The library at my undergraduate college had a wonderful history collection. Still had nothing on the rather obscure topic I was after and lacked the databases I needed to find it.

It's overly simplistic and not at all accurate to conducting academic research, IMO, to think that just because a library or university has a good program in a specific field that they have everything you need to research that field. It just doesn't work that way. So, I don't find it a stretch at all that WSU may generally have better criminology resources than Idaho and still not have everything you'd need and would require an expedition to Idaho.

Again, I imagine if he was hanging around the Idaho campus, he was there for nefarious, creepy reasons. But it's not unfathomable or outside the realm of possibility that he had a perfectly legitimate reason there.

MOO

 

[ktm44]

steeltowngirl, This is so perceptive.
I was only in a car accident. A bad one. Five injured and three hospitalized. After I was released from the hospital - I had relived it so many times and had so many others tell me what happened that I was thankful it didn't go to trial because I was to the point that I wasn't even sure it was my own memory I was recalling or the description of the others who were in the car with me.
Trauma does not enhance accurate memory. It doesn't matter if it's physical or emotional. I would have been a worthless witness.
Yes - keep it short and simple!

That is why LE strongly recommends that eyewitnesses do not discuss their statements or experiences with anyone else associated with a case.

 

[Nova]

I can understand the parents' concerns, but it would not be unusual at all for a doctoral student at a WSU to be on the campus at University of Idaho. BK could have been using the library at UI and took his lunch breaks in the Student Union. There is a lot of this kind of back and forth between universities that are in that close proximity, so this was not unusual at all. There would likely be open lectures by faculty from each university and also visiting lecturers/guests, and events open to everyone. So not unusual at all, and not necessarily indicative of anything untoward.

Hmmm...

I suppose the way you phrase it--"not unusual"--is fair. But we are talking about a trip of 10 miles from WSU to UI. This isn't Pomona, CA, or downtown Pittsburgh or Manhattan, where you have several unis within walking distance.

I spent close to 20 years at UCLA in one program and/or capacity or another. Except for individual semesters where I was hired to teach or guest lecture at Pepperdine and Cal State Northridge, I never set foot on another Los Angeles campus, despite there being many campuses of high academic standing. I was just too busy.

Most library materials can be ordered via interlibrary loan, saving a doctoral student the trip. I can't know BK's exact schedule, but in my first term in a doctoral program, I often had no time to sleep, much less time to hang out at the Student Union of a college I wasn't attending.

 

[Sundog]

During his first semenster?

Exams wouldn't be in the first semester, but course work, etc. would integrate research from other disciplines throughout one's studies, including first semester research papers for coursework.

 

[Boxer]

I understand that the PCA is just the minimum. I've been saying this a lot lately because I feel like I'm not communicating my point well. But for clarification, I totally, 100% get that LE has more information than what's in the PCA. HOWEVER, since we have no idea what that information is, I choose to go only by the PCA until more facts are released. That's why I asked what you were basing your post on? It is possible I missed more information being released as these threads go fast and I don't always read every page (or even every 10 pages).

Re: what was BBM, I don't think it's right to say a literal expert with a 9-page CV of his expertise is spreading misinformation. A colleague of mine had one of those signs in her office that read "don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree." I feel like this is along those same lines. MOO. Anyway, if he is wrong and spreading misinformation, I suspect on cross-examination, they'll demonstrate that to the jury. But my own feeling is, experts who spread misinformation don't typically get called to be an "expert witness" like this guy does.

Again, all MOO.

The article you attached has Ben Levitan saying cell phones can not be accurately located. MOO that is not true they can and are accurately located.

The PCA specifically cites FBI CAST team input. See post #920 by Gliving

 

[Boxer]

Exams wouldn't be in the first semester, but course work, etc. would integrate research from other disciplines throughout one's studies, including first semester research papers for coursework.

He was a TA, a great responsibility, do you think hanging out at another university for work reasons during one’s first semester is reasonable, or just possible?

put

 

[Nova]

It's not common for undergraduate students, but it is common for graduate and doctoral students. Especially use of libraries. Some have better collections in some fields/disciplines than others. Some have different or better journal collections that you might want to use. Many universities have more than one library on campus, especially if there is a medical school as part of the university. Not just use of the library, but other events as well - visiting speakers, lecturers, a film shown, etc.

Or as someone posted earlier, possibly the food. It's hard to say, but definitely not unusual. And ten miles is close proximity, doesn't get much closer. I've driven much further to use a university library when doing research and wanted a source right away that wasn't available on my own campus. And most university libraries in a region will have a lending agreement with their sister institutions.

I do wonder about parking, though. I guess BK could have purchased a day pass at a campus kiosk, or something like that.

(Emphasis added.)

See, my experience was just the opposite. As I already posted, I didn't have time to travel to other campuses when I was a grad student in Los Angeles.

But as an undergrad at Columbia, our "sister school" (Barnard College) was right across Broadway. I almost always used the Barnard library because it was small enough one could still peruse in the stacks. At Columbia, the library was so vast one had to write the requested volume on a form and give it to somebody on roller-skates (I'm not kidding) who raced to find it and then roller back to you at the order window. Very sterile and one had no chance to browse through similar books on the same shelf.

Ten miles is not all that close unless there is a special resource at another school, one that can't be obtained easily through interlibrary loan.

As for parking, not only does it cost a fortune relative to student budgets at UCLA, there is no guarantee it will actually be available when you get there.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

The article you attached has Ben Levitan saying cell phones can not be accurately located. MOO that is not true they can and are accurately located.

The PCA specifically cites FBI CAST team input. See post #920 by Gliving

Another poster posted the article (I just quoted it), but I disagree with your characterization of what was said.

Per the article (linked below), what he said was:

"But telecommunications expert and former electrical engineer Ben Levitan, who has analyzed cellphone data for the well-known Adnan Syed case featured in the “Serial” podcast, told the Idaho Statesman that while cellphone records can provide someone’s estimated location, they can’t pinpoint an individual’s exact location."

Read more at: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271694187.html#storylink=cpy

I don't know much about the FBI's CAST team, but I haven't yet seen anything that suggests we know BK exactly location on the 12 incidents prior to the murder. Obviously, on the night of the murder, there's other evidence, so I'm only referring to the 12 pings prior that some have said make or break the stalking speculation.

I don't think an expert with his CV would spread misinformation. I think this is his belief based on his years of research and expertise in the area. Could he be wrong? Maybe. But I haven't seen any sourced facts that dispute his claim.

MOO.

 

[Nova]

She might notice if he was injured. If he was carrying his hand or holding an an arm. Although, since he still had a mask on after stabbing four souls to death, it doesn't sound like they had much of a chance to close, moo

Of course. I did not intend to imply DM cannot have provided other info.

But the types of things you mention aren't the info usually given to a sketch artist, I don't believe. That's all I was addressing.

 

[Sundog]

He was a TA, a great responsibility, do you think hanging out at another university for work reasons during one’s first semester is reasonable, or just possible?

put

I think that BK could have reasonably and possibly had legitmate reasons to be on the University of Idaho campus and that just because three students claim to havve seen him there, there is no evidence that ties him to any nefarious activity. As far as we know currently, there is nothing to link BK to any of the victims just because he was seen on several occasions on the U of Idaho campus.

 

[Zella]

Ten miles is not all that close unless there is a special resource at another school, one that can't be obtained easily through interlibrary loan.

Ten miles in a major city is a long way, but I don't know that people in Pullman and Moscow think of it as a long distance. I drive ten miles just to go to the store where I live. From what I gather, it does seem like people in both towns frequently drive over to the other town for all sorts of reasons, even if they have no affiliation with the universities. MOO

 

[RonSwanson33]

It sounds interesting to find out more about it.

I never heard that these 2 Universities were in close proximity and that it was common for students to go back and forth. I never heard of students driving that far to use a different University's facilities when they have the exact same facilities at their own University and can just go online for information instead of driving out of town to another University's library. When my friends and I didn't want to eat in our college cafeteria we went to restaurants or got take out or cooked food in the dorm kitchen.

I get your point but would like to know if this is a common thing. If not common at all, then why was BK hanging around? If common, then it makes more sense for him to be there.

It doesn't make sense for him to be anywhere repeatedly in the early am. As far as we know, he didn't have a job or friend or girlfriend to visit in the early morning hours in Moscow. IMO.

 

[Nova]

...

I dont believe "her memory will become enhanced" or she will need to be "rehabilitated on cross."

If you watch trials....

(Edited for focus.)

With respect and, I swear, without rancor, I do not understand what argument you think you and I are having.

None of us can know what all DM told LE before a suspect was named, nor can we know with certainty what she will say in June and then at whatever future date the actual trial is held.

If should be clear by now that I have watched trials. As I have posted, I've been a juror on three criminal cases. I also worked for large law firms--as both a legal secretary and a paralegal--for over 20 years. Along with others, I've been describing how the defense might approach a witness, depending on many factors we can't know right now.

As you point out, skilled attorneys go over testimony with their witnesses in advance. It's called "prepping a witness". In theory it does NOT involve telling the witness what to say, but it does involve letting the witness know in advance what questions are likely. And just as important, it gives the trial lawyer a good idea what the answers will be.

Yes, recollections can be refreshed by any of several means during the testimony, but it isn't always the minor factor you seem to believe it to be. Waivering testimony can be very damaging indeed in the case of an eyewitness accusation against a man on trial for his life--even though the variation is entirely innocent!

But none of us knows that will happen or how a jury may react.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think that BK could have reasonably and possibly had legitmate reasons to be on the University of Idaho campus and that just because three students claim to havve seen him there, there is no evidence that ties him to any nefarious activity. As far as we know currently, there is nothing to link BK to any of the victims just because he was seen on several occasions on the U of Idaho campus.

imo jmo idk but
If you think about it, from a defense standpoint, it might be better if he were seen there in 'normal' capacity frequently. if I were going to commit a nefarious crime, I'd want to be part of the normal scenery, not someone who would have only appeared in front of their house in stalking capacity. And it would provide a more logical reason for my cell phone and 'being in the vicinity'. and potentially how that transfer dna ended up on a knife sheath. idk,jmo, imo.

 

[Nova]

Exams wouldn't be in the first semester, but course work, etc. would integrate research from other disciplines throughout one's studies, including first semester research papers for coursework.

Ten miles in a major city is a long way, but I don't know that people in Pullman and Moscow think of it as a long distance. I drive ten miles just to go to the store where I live. From what I gather, it does seem like people in both towns frequently drive over to the other town for all sorts of reasons, even if they have no affiliation with the universities. MOO

I still question BK's need for research materials from another U. during his first term on campus. Unless, he was taking some special, required, inter-university course, he should have been busy with teaching and introductory (for the Ph.D. level) classes.

Obviously, most of my college experience was obtained in NYC and LA, cities where it can take half a day to go across town, so Zella's point is a fair one.

Regardless, the sources quoted on BK's trips to IU claim he was "staring" at others. If they are to be believed, BK was doing quite a bit of "people watching" for it to be noticeable. Whether the testimony of those witnesses is used may depend on how credible and consistent their accounts of BK's behavior are.

 

[Zella]

I still question BK's need for research materials from another U. during his first term on campus. Unless, he was taking some special, required, inter-university course, he should have been busy with teaching and introductory (for the Ph.D. level) classes.

Obviously, most of my college experience was obtained in NYC and LA, cities where it can take half a day to go across town, so Zella's point is a fair one.

Regardless, the sources quoted on BK's trips to IU claim he was "staring" at others. If they are to be believed, BK was doing quite a bit of "people watching" for it to be noticeable. Whether the testimony of those witnesses is used may depend on how credible and consistent their accounts of BK's behavior are.

I agree he probably wasn't doing anything legitimate there. My objection was mainly to earlier sweeping statements from other posters that it wasn't necessary to travel to another university for research because your library and the internet has all you need. It's just not accurate, IMO, and is a separate issue from whether BK specifically needed anything at Idaho's library.

If he was there and noticeably staring at other people, I think it indicates, as several other anecdotes about him do, that he's a really awkward person who sticks out like a sore thumb. I've often commented that he seems to miss the forest for the trees, and I really do get that vibe about him from these anecdotes too if they're true. He's getting a PhD in criminology and knows to turn off his phone before he commits the crime, but he makes a spectacle of himself in public and drives his own car to the crime scene. MOO

 

[gliving]

I’m really skeptical to believe People magazine after their article about him eating at Mad Greek was later refuted. I feel like they’re reaching here. Did he eat at the UofI campus? Maybe? I guess cell phone records could verify this. But this doesn’t seem like great journalism to me MOO

Yep. The article is by Steve Helling. The same author who wrote the now dubunked Mad Greek stalking story and the dubious Instagram messages story. Has he even been to Moscow?