ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

[BeginnerSleuther]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
Okay, I went to the photo album at the beginning of the thread, and found this. It is a step UP, not down, from the kitchen to the living room, if this photo is the living room, which I think it is. The ajar door would be D's door.

So, not a full flight of stairs, but a step, if this is the right view, which, please correct me if I'm wrong. It's just the point where one half of the house meets the other on that middle floor.

Google Photos


This is the same room, the living room, facing back towards Xana's room.

Google Photos


Someone coming down the step and turning towards the kitchen (right) would enter this photograph from the right, passing the space for the refrigerator, and exiting past the oven.

Google Photos


The sliding door, the exit point.

Google Photos

Apologies for all the edits. I hope it helps folks. It gave me a better understanding of the flow.

Thanks for going to all that trouble! I have the worst imagination so this helped me picture what you were saying.

 

[Boxer]

After killing

I have an apartment where I can hear a lot of comings and goings of neighbors, but I certainly can’t say I can hear when any of my neighbors use the bathroom. Just kind of odd the neighbor knows he went to bathroom late. Must be real thin walls… MOO

Its University student, probably grad and family housing.

 

[Boxer]

After killing

I have an apartment where I can hear a lot of comings and goings of neighbors, but I certainly can’t say I can hear when any of my neighbors use the bathroom. Just kind of odd the neighbor knows he went to bathroom late. Must be real thin walls… MOO

It’s University owned student, probably grad and family housing.

 

[schooling]

His neighbors seem to report him as cleaning, vacuuming, dealing with garbage in the middle of the night.

IMO.

Here's an article:

Accused University of Idaho murderer Bryan Kohberger ‘never slept’

“He’s normally a very late-night person, going to the bathroom and vacuuming at 1 or 12 in the morning,” the neighbor said.

nypost.com

What to make of it? Here is the quote from the article:

“It seemed like he never slept because he was always doing something all night.”

And that something was:

"...going to the bathroom and vacuuming at 1 or 12 in the morning."

...“He’s normally a very late-night person."

IMO he was probably restless trolling the web. His internet connected devices are going to deliver a trove of information.

Unless he used something like Dban (which I highly doubt) they’ll be able to recover everything.

 

[iamshadow21]

Thanks for going to all that trouble! I have the worst imagination so this helped me picture what you were saying.

No problem! It was useful for me, too, because I knew there was a level difference between the two halves of the middle floor, but I'd been picturing it as a short flight of two or three steps from the living room going UP to the kitchen bit. Looking closely at the photos, I realised quickly that the back part of the house is actually a single step lower than the front part. That was incredibly useful knowledge for me to have, so I 'shared my work' in case it helped others to picture the crime scene more accurately, too.

But you see what I meant about the 'roughly horseshoe' shaped movement path the perpetrator likely took? (I know that description went away with the comment that was referencing something off limits, but I'll mention it here because it wasn't the bit that got it deleted.) The perpetrator had to walk towards the living room, turn towards the back of the house, go down the step (passing D), then sharply turn right to exit through the kitchen.

 

[Nova]

Please provide the many inconsistencies with LINKS to all these misleading accounts and conflicting accounts LE was announcing to the public THAT YOU SAY MIGHT HURT THE CASE. I asked before, you have mentioned this several times with no links.

I am only finding one inconsistency, targeted attack or not targeted attack. LE even ADMITTING it was miscommunication which is not enough for the defense to run with. Miscommunication happens. Means nothing in terms of discrediting LE investigators.

THANK YOU

Mysterious Idaho student killings compounded by police contradictions, experts say

Families are questioning contradictions by Idaho police investigating the deaths of Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves and Xana Kernodle

www.usatoday.com

Authorities initially said the stabbings were an "isolated targeted attack," without offering specifics why and that there was "no imminent threat" to the public.

Moscow Police Chief James Fry backtracked that declaration on Nov. 16. "We cannot say there’s no threat to the community and as we have stated, please stay vigilant, report any suspicious activity and be aware of your surroundings at all times," Fry said.

More questions mounted last week after Latah County prosecutor Bill Thompson said during an interview with NewsNation on Tuesday that "investigators believe that whoever is responsible was specifically looking at this particular residence."

Chief James Fry speaks during a press conference about a quadruple homicide investigation involving four University of Idaho students at the Moscow Police Department on Wednesday, Nov. 16, 2022, in Moscow, Idaho.
The following day, Moscow police walked back Thompson's comments slightly, saying there had been a "miscommunication" with the lead prosecutor and that investigators were still seeking a motive.

"We have spoken with the Latah County Prosecutor's Office and identified this was a miscommunication," Moscow police said in a press release.

"Detectives do not currently know if the residence or any occupants were specifically targeted but continue to investigate," police said. "At this time, there is no change or new information in this case, and references otherwise would be inaccurate."

I don't need to find links to info almost everyone remembers. It was the coroner who originally claimed "All the victims were asleep in their beds" in the same interview where she claimed "Some fought back." Posters at the time wondered how both could be true and now Newsnation is reporting they weren't all in their beds.

Furthermore, everyone else recalls how LE originally claimed the white sedan caught on security videos was of an earlier year than BK's white sedan turned out to be.

<modsnip> I said "I DON'T KNOW" if the defense will choose--or be allowed to introduce--such erroneous reports as evidence of confusion inside the investigation <modsnip>. I was asking whether any actual experts had opinions on the subject.

 

[Nova]

Yeah, but then what the prosecutor does is have a witness to explain, for example, how LE's understanding of the case evolved. Juries are capable of understanding that something looked like X at the beginning of the case and new information led to a new view.

Thank you. I agree that juries can be collectively quite acute. (Of course, we can all think of a couple of exceptions, but on the whole...)

 

[Nova]

I’m just singling out ‘crime of passion,’ here. As far as I know, that concept came from the mayor, not from LE, and was presented, the time I’m thinking of, anyway, as one of a number of possibilities.

No clear answers in deaths of 4 Idaho students found dead near campus, mayor says

The mayor of Moscow, Idaho, said the University of Idaho students could have been victims of a property crime "gone wrong" or a "crime of passion."

www.nbcnews.com

MOO

I trust your memory, but even the mayor is a government authority and could be cited as evidence of confusion among officials. I'm not convinced a jury would fall for such an argument--as PittsburghGirl points out--I was just wondering if such an argument is even possible...

 

[Cool Cats]

I'll direct you to message #514. You're free to disagree with it, but I did say what the inconsistencies were, IMO, and provided links to MSM commenting on them (the inconsistences by LE) too.

ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

It is all in the Probable Cause Affidavit The question I asked isn't in the PCA. That's why I was wondering.

www.websleuths.com

"For instance, a lockdown followed by no threat to the community, then it was a crime of passion, then the target was the house vs an occupant, then it was they were all asleep at the time of the killing, then it was that some were asleep, they were all in bed, then we find out at least one may not have been in bed."

Lock downs are normal procedure, they do not know there is no threat to the community, I have seen this happen in other multiple murders.

LE was inconsistent about whether the house was targeted, meaning other homes could be targeted, or if certain individuals in the house were targeted. LE never announced this was a crime of passion and the coroner is the one who told LE they were in bed, that's from just a preliminary autopsy, not the actual autopsy.

Hardly any inconsistencies from LE but typical media misinformation, sensationalism and John Doe opinions as is prevalent in the first week of most case like this.

 

[Nova]

BBM: I got the feeling in hindsight that LE wanted to keep tight lipped on the asleep in beds things partly in order to protect DM and also not to alarm the perp. But also I genuinely think in the earlier stages of the investigation they were also piecing together who was up (out of bed) and who wasn't so, infact, did not know exactly what the situation was.MOO. And hard to say for sure who was alseep at the time attacks started in those early days and even now we know nothing definite but can make some inferences via PCA. MOO.

Apart from the uncertainty re targeted or not, I'm not sure that LE really contradicted themselves around crime of passion vs premeditated (MOO), but my memory could well be tricking me! In any event LE's press conferences at the time didn't strike me as inherently untrustworthy. There was a list of people on MPD page that showed who MPD believed was not involved. I thought at the time that LE were carefully trying to control rumours and flow of info info that had potential to damage the investigation and alarm the perp, MOO

People did get all worked up because of the tight lipped factor, no doubt. But, IMO, were the defense to take the angle that LE can not be trusted in this case, I think the prosecution would be able to answer to such a charge with strong evidence to the contrary and such an approach would fall flat on it's face for the defense. Just MOO!

ETA: Re who was asleep when attacks began, I believe at a minimum that DM and and XK were likely awake and I also infer from the PCA that the attacks began in Maddie's room. I think it's possible XK awoke EC. or he awoke himself. I do tend to believe, at this moment, that KG and MM were both in MM's bed and likely asleep. MOO

I really wasn't thinking that LE were befuddled; I just wondered whether apparent LE confusion could be used as a defense. I guess I was thinking of the OJ criminal trial, where every aspect of DNA collection and testing were deciphered until the jurors admitted they simply ignored all DNA evidence. (Yes, there were some social factors going on as well, but the fact remains that Barry Scheck and Dr. Lee were able to blunt DNA evidence that was rationally undeniable.)

 

[Ghostwheel]

I think a lot of people are over thinking this as if it's some sort of checkmate move. This is what happens when we start analyzing evidence like they are individual plays in a football game.

A close friend of mine drove a 2013 up until 2020. For 8 years she saw that car day in and day out. I played a 2013 vs 2015 game and she couldn't tell. After I pointed out the differences to her, her chances improved but from certain angles she still couldn't' tell.

Jurors are just like my friend. They are easily going to be able to understand how a mistake like that is made, especially in the dark. And they'll be able to see the source video that led LE to that conclusion.

Once cellular location evidence is overlaid over the video. And one corroborates and bolsters the other. And your choice is to either accept those two things or believe in EXTRAORDINARY coincidences (along with a framing of DNA at the crime scene).....I doubt the small taillight and front bumper differences in the two Elantras will be a big deal at all.

The Law Enforcement officials in the Delphi case WISH their car misidentification problem was this small.

As long as there isn't a car person on the jury, you may be right. One thing jurors are also just like is thinking "If LE couldn't get the car right, what else did they mess up on?" Now, if there is a good reason, it won't be an issue at all. If they hadn't pinned it down to the three years that had differences from a 2015, it wouldn't have been an issue. If they've got tons of DNA evidence, it's absolutely NOT an issue.

But it would matter to me if I were on a jury. ALL the evidence would matter. JMO, as always.

 

[Tman2004]

His neighbors seem to report him as cleaning, vacuuming, dealing with garbage in the middle of the night.

IMO.

Here's an article:

Accused University of Idaho murderer Bryan Kohberger ‘never slept’

“He’s normally a very late-night person, going to the bathroom and vacuuming at 1 or 12 in the morning,” the neighbor said.

nypost.com

What to make of it?

I know that's frowned upon when you have neighbors but some people cant sleep and it's a struggle

 

[iamshadow21]

I agree, was responding to another poster who wondered whether defense might try to attck LE as untrustworthy owing to instants of "erroneous" communication to the public in early days of investigation. That poster mentioned the whole bed thingy. MOO

Just bouncing off your post to some other points.
I don't even think LE's communication to the public in the early days could be classified as "erroneous" for a start. I agree with other posters who point to an evolving inverstigation by LE. I also agree with others who point to the difference between info actually released and discussed by LE in Press Conferences vs some MSM (for e.gthe Daily Mail) angles and interpretations and perhaps inadvertaent or otherwise misinterpretation of LE's statements. MOO

I have a suspicion - no proof, this is just my own thoughts - that based on certain things said in the very early hours and days of this case, they thought, first blush, that this was likely a murder/suicide. And once they realised that there was no weapon and the injuries were all defensive, none self inflicted, they quickly had to readjust and start looking in earnest for a suspect. I think this readjustment happened within the first day of investigation, but that was long enough for things like 'no risk to the public', 'crime of passion', etc. to creep into the media and prove difficult to excise.

Very much MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

I really wasn't thinking that LE were befuddled; I just wondered whether apparent LE confusion could be used as a defense. I guess I was thinking of the OJ criminal trial, where every aspect of DNA collection and testing were deciphered until the jurors admitted they simply ignored all DNA evidence. (Yes, there were some social factors going on as well, but the fact remains that Barry Scheck and Dr. Lee were able to blunt DNA evidence that was rationally undeniable.)

Such different times, too (I agree with you). I was involved in trying to prep attorneys to eve discuss DNA back then (now, most students believe DNA is ONLY a forensic tool - ).

The jury wasn't ready for that type of evidence, which IMO, was relatively new at the time (1994 for the murders; first case of DNA being used as evidence in a trial in the US was 1987. At that point in time, even college graduates were not conversant on DNA - which, according to most recent studies, is more or less still the case (except that now, DNA is viewed as like fingerprint - and the experts are believed). It's tricky.

Article from 2021 shows that things have not improved all that much:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27133121

In short, DNA is viewed as "like a fingerprint," which I suppose is a start. But it might be easy to confuse a jury with "touch DNA" and "transfer DNA" (as though those things are *not* "like a fingerprint.")

All it took was some high-powered, high-paid experts to bamboozle that jury, IMO, so I do agree with you. And I'm not at all optimistic that things are that much better now - so the car data on BK and his strange movements for the 24 hours after the murders will likely be what the defense has to...defend against. IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Hardly any inconsistencies from LE, I've seen many more in other cases.

Snipped for focus. That's your opinion. My opinion is different. I believe there were several inconsistencies from LE and their officials (JMO), including most recently, the Indiana police stops.

Idaho murders: FBI denies directing Indiana police to pull over Bryan Kohberger

A law enforcement surveillance team was tracking Bryan Kohberger and his father on their cross-country road trip and directed Indiana police to pull the two over.

www.foxnews.com

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

No problem! It was useful for me, too, because I knew there was a level difference between the two halves of the middle floor, but I'd been picturing it as a short flight of two or three steps from the living room going UP to the kitchen bit. Looking closely at the photos, I realised quickly that the back part of the house is actually a single step lower than the front part. That was incredibly useful knowledge for me to have, so I 'shared my work' in case it helped others to picture the crime scene more accurately, too.

But you see what I meant about the 'roughly horseshoe' shaped movement path the perpetrator likely took? (I know that description went away with the comment that was referencing something off limits, but I'll mention it here because it wasn't the bit that got it deleted.) The perpetrator had to walk towards the living room, turn towards the back of the house, go down the step (passing D), then sharply turn right to exit through the kitchen.

I do see what you mean about the path he likely took. It'll be interesting to see this described in court. D is very, very lucky. JMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I know that's frowned upon when you have neighbors but some people cant sleep and it's a struggle

Exactly. I went to university with medical students, including residents - they worked very odd hours and no one could really fault them for showering in the middle of the night. I'll be quite honest. I was lucky to be able to take anatomy classes at the medical school, but came home smelling of formaldehyde and death, every night. There were several others in my building who were in similar programs. We noticed when others above or nearby us were showering/flushing/etc in the night time, for sure. But it's not necessarily "odd."

OTOH, night after night of not sleeping when NOT a medical student or resident is unusual. As we all eventually found out.

IME. IMO. BK was not taking anatomy classes, IMO. No cadavers in his life. And, apparently, not a lot of consideration for married students with children living underneath him. IMO.

 

[Kdot112]

I'm not sure she rationally thought about how flimsy a residential door is nor do I know if she hid someplace in her room but whatever decision she made allowed her to provide some insight and gave LE some information to start their investigation and in hindsight, it very well may have saved her life.

My main point was if she possibly called the other roommates this would signify a thorough understanding something was wrong. Her subsequent reaction and actions after getting no response seems to be calm and collected. I don’t see it as hysterical/panicky as has been stated in the current narrative until the 911 calls the next day.

 

[iamshadow21]

I do see what you mean about the path he likely took. It'll be interesting to see this described in court. D is very, very lucky. JMO.

And I think he MUST have been coming down the step from the front of the house, because of the way D's door opens. If he'd been coming down the flight of stairs from the top floor, where Maddie and Kaylee were, she only would have seen his shoulder and back as he turned left toward the kitchen. Either that, or she would have had to have her door wide open and be standing practically at the foot of the stairs herself, or have her head craning out, and there is no way in heck he could have overlooked her.

With the perpetrator coming down that single step and starting to turn right towards the kitchen, D only had to have the door cracked a fraction of an inch with her eye to the gap to see him. He would have been mostly facing her, probably with his eyes slightly downcast so that he didn't stumble on the stair, so his eyes would have been in shadow, but his eyebrows probably prominent and noticeable in any ambient light. He passed her probably closer than two feet from where she was standing. I think she got a very good look at him.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Snipped for focus. That's our opinion. My opinion is different. I believe there were several inconsistencies from LE and their officials (JMO), including most recently, the Indiana police stops.

Idaho murders: FBI denies directing Indiana police to pull over Bryan Kohberger

A law enforcement surveillance team was tracking Bryan Kohberger and his father on their cross-country road trip and directed Indiana police to pull the two over.

www.foxnews.com

Opinion:

But the Indiana LE were not the same LE as in Idaho.

So now we have a picture of various "inconsistencies" from various, unrelated LE agencies. That, to me is normal. Inconsistencies are normal and rarely pose any problems in court (because raising them can damage the defense as much as the prosecution - in many cases, moreso). I think this is one of those cases.

Your argument seems to be that LE is inconsistent, rather than that "all human investigations are inconsistent, so we should expect inconsistencies." I think the consistency argument gets weaker every year, as more and more jurors understand what investigations are like - with help from the various attorneys involved. It becomes a matter of ordinary reason and common sense. If every LE agency across the US is "inconsistent," then what do we do about law enforcement and murder?

It's up to the jury to decide (and they do).

The early inconsistencies are all explainable and very unlikely to come up at the actual trial, as the defense doesn't want cans of worms. The Coroner alone is responsible for about half of these inconsistencies, and the vagaries of investigation for the other - as we're seeing in the Murdaugh trial. Inconsistencies abound, but the jury has to sort them out. "Crime of passion" vs "LE receives information in a particular order, gradually getting a full picture..." well, I don't think the jury will ever hear the phrase 'Crime of passion' or "targeted" in this entire trial. I don't know why they would.

Do you think that the defense will bring those things up? I don't. It will just make their situation far, far worse. They need to stay away from any of that rhetor.

IMO, IME.

It's behind us. The strategies for bringing someone to the court of justice are quite different (fortunately) from those involved in convicting them. The defense doesn't want to give any hint that BK could have committed a crime of passion - and if they choose to introduce that notion, I think his goose is cooked, because the prosecution has its own strategy for turning that around on him.

IOW, LE is not going to be harangued at trial; it's all about whether BK is guilty. At trial, IMO.

I do understand that some people are still caught up in the first couple of weeks of what people in Moscow said - but it's not going to look consistent to a jury. IMO.

Although it would be very interesting to call the coroner to the stand and let both sides have at her (if that's what happens). The medical examiners (from Spokane) will then be called and I am pretty sure the Coroner's "inconsistent" phrasing will go down the drain. But I don't fault her or the 'crime of passion' mayor, either. Most of us understand what it's like in the first days of a major crime (we just imagine it if we haven't been through it).

IMO.