ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

[maskedwoman]

After catching up this morning, I'm struggling with how some posters use the rage killing. Some of us seem to mean that something happened earlier in the evening and it enraged this person so much they stalked them back home, waited an extended period of time until the house quieted down, then entered intending to to kill everyone in the house.

To me that's cold and calculating. Someone in a true rage couldn't possibly remain inactive for that long. Legally, a crime of passion is one that occurs during the "heat of passion" or as a fairly immediate response to a provocation. Just like road rage is an immediate reaction to something that happens to you on the road. I also think someone in a rage would have a hard time sustaining that rage during the time required to kill 4 people on two different levels of the house. That took a lot of physical work and IMO would have burned through the rage.

This person isn't a serial killer, so far as we know, because being a serial killer means you have killed on multiple occasions, and we have no evidence of that thus far. A spree killer means the murderer killed multiple people at more than one location. No current evidence of this either.

It does fits the legal definition of a mass murder, which is killing 4 or more people in the same location during a single period of time. Mass murderer is a very jarring term, but it does seem to be correct.

I did some reading this morning and found that mass murderers often operate off hatred rather than rage. Hatred against a group that mistreated them, that they disapprove of in general, or a group that excluded them. Hitler hated Jews. The Walmart manager hated his employees. Dylan Roof hated black people. There are other motivations, for sure, but they all seemed to be deeply rooted motivations that allowed for planning rather than impulsive actions. I watched an American Monster episode where a woman left her husband and weeks later he killed her mother and grandparents, and shot her brother 12 times. His motivation was to punish her for leaving him. He didn't shoot her. He wanted her to suffer the loss of everyone she loved.

The more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me that the killer came to kill one and the others were any sort of collateral damage. Why not just choose a different time and place rather than risk one person getting away and raising the alarm? I agree there had to be an inciting event, but I don't think this was a crime of passion. To me, at least so far, it seems more like other mass murders, where the killer has an issue with the group as a whole.

Thanks for reading.

 

[NuttMegg]

Let’s pretend that M and K had a mutual friend Stephanie that had a crush on Adam. Stephanie has been hinting to Adam that she likes him but he hasn’t seemed to pick up on it. Stephanie has told M and K that she’s head over heels for Adam, is planning to ask him to go see The Black Keys with her in January, and had a dream the other night where they were married and had two daughters together. Well guess what? Maddie had one too many Jell-O shots and gushed to Adam everything that Stephanie has said. EVERYTHING.

My scenario is obviously completely made up and I have no idea if “everything” is something completely trivial or if “everything” is somehow secret information that got a household of wonderful people murdered. There just isn’t enough context to support any one particular interpretation IMO.

Agreed. "Everything" could be anything.

 

[annpats]

To me, at least so far, it seems more like other mass murders, where the killer has an issue with the group as a whole.

Great post. I've snipped it for emphasis on your final point, as I agree with you that these killings had nothing to do with anything that happened previously that night, and that the hatred for the students had been brewing for a long while.

My only belief is that whoever hated them that much didn't do the killing themselves. They got someone in who was capable of doing a swift, silent job without making mistakes.

MOO.

 

[CityKid]

this killer is a pro ... he is not a bartender or a college kid ...

Any reason you believe this?

 

[Balthazar]

Ah Carrol Leiberman, who touts herself on Twitter as "America's Psychiatrist"

https://twitter.com/drcarolemd

Also known for making unsubstaniated claims. per her Wiki:
"During a February 2011 interview with FOX News, Lieberman claimed that there existed a correlation between violent video games and sexual assault: "The increase in rapes can be attributed in large part to the playing out of [sexual] scenes in video games".[8][9] However, in Wired magazine, journalist Jason Schreier wrote that when asked "multiple times to clarify her comments, she failed to cite a single study, statistic or piece of evidence that proved her point."[10] Lieberman eventually responded with a single study to support her case as of February 14, 2011: "Violent Video Game Effects on Aggression, Empathy, and Prosocial Behavior in Eastern and Western Countries: A Meta-Analytic Review".[11] However, the article makes no mention of sexual crime. Her claims were also ridiculed by Douglas Gentile, a professor at Iowa State University who studies the relationship between media and violence. Gentile, who "has been researching violence in media since 1999 [and] has written books and studies about the psychological effects of videogames," said of Lieberman's claims: "I don't know where [she] would get any evidence for this opinion. There's really very little to substantiate her claims in research literature."


fwiw psychology based criminal profiling is at best an iffy science.

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

Anyhow hope I don't come across as argumentative just trying to convey that statistical analysis has a much better success rate when it comes to solving crime.

Criminal profiling is known to be at least 66% accurate. Not perfect by any means, yet better than nothing.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Great post. I've snipped it for emphasis on your final point, as I agree with you that these killings had nothing to do with anything that happened previously that night, and that the hatred for the students had been brewing for a long while.

My only belief is that whoever hated them that much didn't do the killing themselves. They got someone in who was capable of doing a swift, silent job without making mistakes.

MOO.

If someone was paid to do this, I wonder what the rate would be? I know you didn't mention payment, but it makes me wonder. JMO

 

[CityKid]

Let’s pretend that M and K had a mutual friend Stephanie that had a crush on Adam. Stephanie has been hinting to Adam that she likes him but he hasn’t seemed to pick up on it. Stephanie has told M and K that she’s head over heels for Adam, is planning to ask him to go see The Black Keys with her in January, and had a dream the other night where they were married and had two daughters together. Well guess what? Maddie had one too many Jell-O shots and gushed to Adam everything that Stephanie has said. EVERYTHING.

My scenario is obviously completely made up and I have no idea if “everything” is something completely trivial or if “everything” is somehow secret information that got a household of wonderful people murdered. There just isn’t enough context to support any one particular interpretation IMO.

I laughed at the oddly specific nature of your post but I agree 100%. This could be everything or nothing.

 

[shane13]

This is absolutely what I think too.
The person who had a grudge or 'beef' with these students didn't do the killing himself. They got someone in to do the job. Someone who specialises in that kind of thing, and who was capable of doing it without being caught.

I've indicated that a while ago when I noted the possible complexity of this with MPD having an unnamed suspect who had someone else do parts of it. This complexity causing the "delay."

 

[CityKid]

If someone was paid to do this, I wonder what the rate would be? I know you didn't mention payment, but it makes me wonder. JMO

Maybe have a debt forgiven?

 

[Nila Aella]

Does anybody know how alcohol enforcement works in Moscow Idaho? Is there a patrol that just cruises around the University looking for violations or does LE have to be called about inebriated individuals before they go out to a particular location?

 

[EBW321]

The thing is by releasing the fact they've found the car and owner they were looking for how is that person going to be harassed?. LE wouldn't disclose that info. so surely people would be just as unaware as they are now.

Thank you! You make a very good point.

Which is actually a big part of the question I was asking others for input in.

I guess my big question is would there be any logical scenario in which they would not release the fact they’ve already identified the car and or owner of it?

Or do you think the lack of information on it is simply because they have not found it?

I want to believe so badly they have more information than they can share with the public.

Moo-

 

[Jawds78]

Interview with Cap. Fry

 

[Walela]

If someone was paid to do this, I wonder what the rate would be? I know you didn't mention payment, but it makes me wonder. JMO

I was just wondering that very same thing. That led me to wonder how one would go about finding and hiring such a person. Dark web? Craig's list? Payment in bit coin?
I don't think I've ever heard of a mass killing for hire and I don't believe this is what happened here. JMO

 

[Allabouttrial]

After catching up this morning, I'm struggling with how some posters use the rage killing. Some of us seem to mean that something happened earlier in the evening and it enraged this person so much they stalked them back home, waited an extended period of time until the house quieted down, then entered intending to to kill everyone in the house.

To me that's cold and calculating. Someone in a true rage couldn't possibly remain inactive for that long. Legally, a crime of passion is one that occurs during the "heat of passion" or as a fairly immediate response to a provocation. Just like road rage is an immediate reaction to something that happens to you on the road. I also think someone in a rage would have a hard time sustaining that rage during the time required to kill 4 people on two different levels of the house. That took a lot of physical work and IMO would have burned through the rage.

This person isn't a serial killer, so far as we know, because being a serial killer means you have killed on multiple occasions, and we have no evidence of that thus far. A spree killer means the murderer killed multiple people at more than one location. No current evidence of this either.

It does fits the legal definition of a mass murder, which is killing 4 or more people in the same location during a single period of time. Mass murderer is a very jarring term, but it does seem to be correct.

I did some reading this morning and found that mass murderers often operate off hatred rather than rage. Hatred against a group that mistreated them, that they disapprove of in general, or a group that excluded them. Hitler hated Jews. The Walmart manager hated his employees. Dylan Roof hated black people. There are other motivations, for sure, but they all seemed to be deeply rooted motivations that allowed for planning rather than impulsive actions. I watched an American Monster episode where a woman left her husband and weeks later he killed her mother and grandparents, and shot her brother 12 times. His motivation was to punish her for leaving him. He didn't shoot her. He wanted her to suffer the loss of everyone she loved.

The more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me that the killer came to kill one and the others were any sort of collateral damage. Why not just choose a different time and place rather than risk one person getting away and raising the alarm? I agree there had to be an inciting event, but I don't think this was a crime of passion. To me, at least so far, it seems more like other mass murders, where the killer has an issue with the group as a whole.

Thanks for reading.

Only thing is, in your examples guns were used not a knife.

A knife screams rage and is extremely personal.

 

[PrairieWind]

Criminal profiling is known to be at least 66% accurate. Not perfect by any means, yet better than nothing.

Profiling, to be of any use, must be based on some good facts. Most of the profiling I have seen is based upon assumptions, so it is largely useless.

 

[shane13]

I wonder if the killer here could be so evil that while his main target was one of the woman say [or even the one man], to deflect away from himself, he ruthlessly killed the other three even though he had no grudge against them. Recall the DA telling defense lawyer in Jagged Edge when he realized that perp "Did the same crime 6 mo earlier [to deflect suspicion from him]" And he added: "...He is an iceman. He is a monster."

He could have done this horrific deflection, because he had posted things on SM or there was other evidence that would point to him.

So he'd want either/both:
1. other people to do it or parts of it
2. kill others there instead of just the "main target."

Just hypotheticals.

And this possibility could account for what is perceived as wavering by MPD re house or individual as targeta. MOO

 

[Down To Earth]

I laughed at the oddly specific nature of your post but I agree 100%. This could be everything or nothing.

At least in this case there is a known witness to the conversation who is still alive. I would guess he's been interviewed and asked specifically about this conversation. If "everything" is the type of E V E R Y T H I N G that explains the entire possible motive of someone to murder these specific people, then LE already has the picture painted and IMO would be targeting certain evidence or types of evidence that substantiates their case and eventual conviction. This is possibly happening, but sadly, that's only if "everything" is EVERYTHING and if the witness to the conversation is removed enough to be sharing with LE openly and honestly. If "everything" is just everything, then we're back to square one.

EDIT: It's also known that Adam is cooperating with LE. So there are actually 2 living witnesses privy to the truth about what "everything" means.

 

[EBW321]

I've indicated that a while ago when I noted the possible complexity of this with MPD having an unnamed suspect who had someone else do parts of it. This complexity causing the "delay."

Moo- I just find it hard to imagine that college kids could A. Afford to hire a hit man for a grudge or beef with these students. B. Not have left a financial trace or technological trace (phone / emails) in the process.

 

[10ofRods]

Interesting change in the template for the Daily MPD update. I have been checking daily for any editorial changes and now it's happened. Here is 12-20:

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24978/12-20-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

It's much shorter than any previous day's update and language that was in most of the previous updates is gone. Here's 12-19 as an example:

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24943/12-19-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

Now, this could be just a fluke, but I doubt it. Some of us were discussing the "re-interviewing" process and the fact that Mrs G mentioned that some people were cleared too early (SG mentioned it as well). We discussed it briefly a couple of threads ago that if MPD wanted to walk back some of the "clearings," it would have to remove all of the people they listed, otherwise it would be obvious which person was being put back into the pool of possible POI's.

No one was cleared, the language was "not believed to be involved at this time." (emphasis mine),

Now the update/daily statement leaves off that whole section, with no mention of anyone "not believed to be involved."

Again, could just be a fluke, but I am guessing that as they have interviewed over 200 people, LE's picture of what happened is much sharper. A is mentioned as cooperating, btw.

I also believe it's an open question as to where everyone started out sleeping on Nov 12, in that house, as well as how many people might have been there during that evening. While it is true that *one* reporter "confirmed with police" where people were sleeping - how was it even known back then? That was the first week of this investigation. That was before we all saw the 9-1 body cam video (and I doubt that MPD personnel remembered to review that video back in Week 1).

So there's movement in this case. Maybe tomorrow the "not believed to be involved" list will be back.

 

[Trouble1321075]

@North_Idaho_Nony

You quoted my comment about one of the surviving roommates being on the same floor as "X" in the last thread. I just want to clarify what I meant because I now realize I did not articulate my thought clearly.

I did not mean she was in her room on the second floor when the murders occurred. She could very well of been downstairs with the other roommate or in the other room with a freind.

The point I was raising is that if it's true that her bedroom is located on the second floor and the killer entered the house through the sliders it opens up new questions.

The killer would have to pass by her bedroom to get to the other rooms.

Was she included in the killer's plans but wasn't where he expected her to be?

Did he know she was downstairs?

Was the door to her room open or closed when they found the victims?

Part of the fog over this case is that we are not even sure if we have a basic understanding of the living arrangements inside the house or even who was in the house that night.

The police have told us the two roommates were home but they have not told us they were the only ones there. They might of had guests.

We are trying to build a picture based off assumptions. If those assumptions are false so is our picture.