ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[rsd1200]

This has been a question of much discussion in my household. Two of us are college professors. Most classes at U of Idaho were being held in the real world. I noticed that K's name was not on the list of graduates at the recent graduation, so she must have had coursework to complete. In fact, I find it hard to believe she didn't have at least 9-12 units, given that she was graduating a semester early and had done an internship (rather than stay in Moscow and do coursework) during the summer. Maybe there were more online classes during the summer.

K arrives in Moscow around mid-August (August 11?) and the party at 1122 King Road is Sept 1. She is on body cam in August for a noise complaint (at 1122 King Road). Her mother says she came home about 10 days before Nov 12, so let's say around Nov 2. It doesn't sound like she was planning to come back again until graduation. It's possible she found shorter courses (accelerated courses) to finish her units, but units are units, and that would be an unusual way to finish out a degree (accelerated courses are usually lower division courses, for what I hope are obvious reasons).

Why did she leave early? Getting a paid internship during the summer is quite an accomplishment, and may have signaled a career change for her (University president announced her major as General Studies when he gave his press release regarding the tragedy). How did she find the internship? She had over 50,000 followers at the time of her death (and almost 60,000 now). That's a lot of social contacts. We know nothing about her online interactions with this growing group of people - nor do we know what aspects of her content on instagram drew that many followers. Was she networking nationwide?

Her lease must have been up in December, so why did she leave early? AND break up with her longterm boyfriend at around the same time? The break-up is said to have occurred about 10 days before she went back home (so let's say Oct 24ish).

This is a lot of change for even a young person. It's possible she had only lower division requirements to complete (say, an English course) and got permission from a prof to work from home (students ask for that all the time - but generally, they have to have a good reason, such as illness).

Anyway, at what point did she register for fully online classes, if she did (I'm finding plenty of GE classes that were fully online). Why would a student pay for rent if they didn't have to? She apparently intended to occupy (and party at) 1122 King Road for her last semester. What changed her mind?

I'm not disrespecting her goals of having fun during her last semester at university, I'm just curious about what changed during the semester, given that she signed a lease, apparently had classes on campus (why else be there?) and then changed midstream. She apparently gave no clues to her parents, other than excitement about wanting the next phase of her life to begin (which might be precisely what motivated her to move away from Moscow). Was she really going to backpack Europe by herself?

I'd not heard the Backpacking part but had heard she was going to Europe and then had a job lined up in Tx. I had wondered why she did not stay for graduation but if her name was not on the list then she did have credits to complete. I doubt she was likely paying for the tuition or the rent. Her FB shows a photo dump of her Freshman year, dated Mar of 2020. Maybe she was interning and transferring her credits to a University in Texas.

 

[Catz]

..

TY - I would love everyone's opinion on it,

JD first walking on to stage looked like he wasn’t sure where to stand and so he ended up on the other side of the podium where he was out of view for most of the time. I thought I noticed him holding a paper or papers. So I thought he was going to speak, but then he did not. When it was wrapping up, I thought Mr. G , may have looked irked, or disappointed? that JD did not speak. I thought the hug from Mrs G might have been in response to JD not speaking after all and understanding that he felt he just couldn’t. That’s my take on watching it. moo.

 

[FlamingoLady]

TY - I would love everyone's opinion on it,

Well K's father did seem to ask J at 24:35-ish if he wanted to say something so that seems gracious, in my opinion. To me, it just seemed like he was finished honoring his daughter. If his wife wanted to reach out to J, that was her deal, but he was finished. I did not sense any obvious animosity. He just wasn't going to "reach out" per se, like his wife did. Imo of course. ETA: And my comment concerning this thought got deleted earlier but I stand by it- Maybe K's father held some (misplaced) anger that J was not there to protect her (not saying he should have been!) They were together for 5 years and we aren't privy to past events in their relationship which could factor into his demeanor as well.

 

[DizzyB]

TY - I would love everyone's opinion on it,

It feels like I have seen this dynamic before, which may be why I am reading too much into it. I’m sure body language experts would have a lot to say.

 

[z0mer]

..

JD first walking on to stage looked like he wasn’t sure where to stand and so he ended up on the other side of the podium where he was out of view for most of the time. I thought I noticed him holding a paper or papers. So I thought he was going to speak, but then he did not. When it was wrapping up, I thought Mr. G , may have looked irked, or disappointed? that JD did not speak. I thought the hug from Mrs G might have been in response to JD not speaking after all and understanding that he felt he just couldn’t. That’s my take on watching it. moo.

I think people make too much out of it.

 

[rsd1200]

(Just a caring dad who loved their child, their Angel Mommy, God, and Darryl Dixon).

And Walmart shoes.

I know it is the popular belief the girls, one or all was the target. I think that is because they were very beautiful girls. Model material. But college towns are full of beautiful young girls who are not stalked or killed.

I think this resulted from an altercation either at the frat party earlier or a party that continued after E&X returned home.

I think before the altercation there was no target, that something happened in that altercation with E or X that set off a murderous rage. SG said there was a "Hell of a battle" on the second floor.

People seem to think young men don't carry around knives strapped on their belt but that is not true (here they carry guns strapped to their belts in public loaded with hollow point ammo). This is Idaho, where hunting is a big deal.

Then you have the video gamers who are into everything their avatars online are, buying the costumes, knives, guns ect that is used in the game. (think the TV show Big Bang Theory or as a nod to @rsd1200 Boondock Saints.) Also those frat and sorority parties have themes. So what if it was a D&D or Call of Duty theme party?

Or someone who just collected knives and daggers?

Then who is to say the knife wasn't already there in the house? A left over from a friend at a previous party? Or even belonged to E or one of the girls? You know girls are gamers too and into everything their online avatar is into. Or even a gift from a father or brother for protection. Not out of the realm of possibility that knife belonged to one of the girls.

Unless we are young, or have young kids/grandkids who tell us what's popular in their world today, we have no way of knowing what they are up to.

We have very little information on any of the victims hobbies, or if they owned a K Bar knife or any other kind of fixed blade knife. If any of them were obsessed with The Walking Dead and Darryl Dixon. We know even less about E's frat brothers and what they were into. Or the girls male friends and what they were into.

I firmly believe what happened came from that frat house after E&X returned home and K&M were caught up in it because they saw who was there when they came home.

In other words, taking SG at his word, there was a drunken brawl with the perpetrator maybe taking some drug like meth, that resulted in a hell of a battle on the second floor.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

JMO

I can definitely see your theory. I've carried some sort of a knife since I was a teen. I actually enjoy collecting odd sorts of knives. Nothing special. Just different. It's open carry here too, knives or guns. I'm sure no one blinks at them in ID if they're from ID.

It's a frat, they could be playing scenes from Monty Python with real daggers, galloping around clapping coconuts together for horse hooves, for all we know, they have zero cams in there, but are said to be cooperating with police. It is where they live so I can understand the camera rule I guess, but possibly an entry and exit camera might not be a bad idea, such a security cam. It's not for me to decide though.

Walmart shoes. Thank Heaven for stupid criminal moves.

 

[mrtnira]

It feels like I have seen this dynamic before, which may be why I am reading too much into it. I’m sure body language experts would have a lot to say.

The thing about body language is there has to be a baseline, an understanding of what the person being observed normally acts like. The foundational personality, life trauma, or conditioned responses, all of these can shape how a person will respond, so there may be a range of responses to a test or to an event, but the response may not indicate what it appears to indicate.

 

[Ghostwheel]

TY - I would love everyone's opinion on it,

I know what I think, it's not what you think and I'm not good with trying to project what I think on the actions of someone in emotional pain. It seems really unfair, so just let me say I had a completely different take on it. JMO.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

It is Washington State University (WSU) that is nearby, in Pullman, Washington.

University of Washington is in Seattle (with satellite campuses in Bothell and Tacoma).

As I posted recently, there is a college of veterinary medicine at WSU.

Yes — the WSU vet med school is in Pullman

UI also has a wide variety animal sciences courses & operates Vandal Brand Meats.

And while I don’t agree anatomy (human or non-human animal) knowledge was necessarily required for these horrific murders, I wanted to give a shout out to the role UI plays in Idaho WWAMI & med school education, which directly benefits the Moscow community:

“WWAMI allows the medical students to train all four years in their home state, with their first two years on the Palouse and Clearwater Valley, increasing their familiarity with rural Idaho, as well as the health care needs of their region and state. This increases the likelihood that students will select further training or practice opportunities in Idaho once their training is complete.”
About the WWAMI Program at the University of Idaho

Of course, the details that come out after arrest(s) & during trial(s) may cause me to change my opinion about anatomical knowledge playing a role, but I’m not currently there. MOO

 

[Which_pancake]

(Just a caring dad who loved their child, their Angel Mommy, God, and Darryl Dixon).

And Walmart shoes.

I know it is the popular belief the girls, one or all was the target. I think that is because they were very beautiful girls. Model material. But college towns are full of beautiful young girls who are not stalked or killed.

I think this resulted from an altercation either at the frat party earlier or a party that continued after E&X returned home.

I think before the altercation there was no target, that something happened in that altercation with E or X that set off a murderous rage. SG said there was a "Hell of a battle" on the second floor.

People seem to think young men don't carry around knives strapped on their belt but that is not true (here they carry guns strapped to their belts in public loaded with hollow point ammo). This is Idaho, where hunting is a big deal.

Then you have the video gamers who are into everything their avatars online are, buying the costumes, knives, guns ect that is used in the game. (think the TV show Big Bang Theory or as a nod to @rsd1200 Boondock Saints.) Also those frat and sorority parties have themes. So what if it was a D&D or Call of Duty theme party?

Or someone who just collected knives and daggers?

Then who is to say the knife wasn't already there in the house? A left over from a friend at a previous party? Or even belonged to E or one of the girls? You know girls are gamers too and into everything their online avatar is into. Or even a gift from a father or brother for protection. Not out of the realm of possibility that knife belonged to one of the girls.

Unless we are young, or have young kids/grandkids who tell us what's popular in their world today, we have no way of knowing what they are up to.

We have very little information on any of the victims hobbies, or if they owned a K Bar knife or any other kind of fixed blade knife. If any of them were obsessed with The Walking Dead and Darryl Dixon. We know even less about E's frat brothers and what they were into. Or the girls male friends and what they were into.

I firmly believe what happened came from that frat house after E&X returned home and K&M were caught up in it because they saw who was there when they came home.

In other words, taking SG at his word, there was a drunken brawl with the perpetrator maybe taking some drug like meth, that resulted in a hell of a battle on the second floor.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

JMO

I also feel it is more likely that this had to do E and/or X. I really think all the publicly known info about K & M has created the false impression that they were the targets. Or at least it is just as likely focused on E/X, but not many people seem to be looking in that direction.

Well the police are, I'm sure! MOO

 

[Jedbooks]

Well, we can agree to disagree about whether such people can be calculating, meticulous and efficient. I believe they can and could operate a car (although maybe they shouldn't).

I say this due to years of experience working in inpatient units, from VA Hospitals to State Hospitals for the Criminally Insane, and in jails (intake units; 2 year facilities). I've interviewed a lot of criminals, most of them mentally ill (because that was the project). Some were addicts (who can be very very calculating and efficient - including in how they present to doctors and to police, it's an entire game for some of them).

Someone capable of being brainwashed is an interesting addition to the list. But, how are we to calculate the effects on the brain of "brainwashing"? What part disconnects? How do we know that brainwashing isn't a way of inducing what are basically specific fugue states? Almost everyone is capable of a brief moment of not thinking and not realizing what they just did - perhaps brainwashing makes it a longer period? That was certainly the theory of military intelligence and the CIA back in the days of experiments in the US with brainwashing (like the ones of Jolly West - whose work, interestingly, is seeing a resurgence of interest, I am running into people who never heard of him back when he was technically my boss - but now, a bunch of younger people know about him, as they are interested in cults and brainwashing). To my knowledge, I never met Jolly, but he did sign the paperwork for my hire. He was interested in hallucinogens and brainwashing.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for insinuations against a non POI and this response to it is a well>





Oh - gotcha now. I feel the same. Was just talking about it. For a very long time, everyone I knew who broke up with a long term SO did not keep close association with them - even if it was "amicable." It was actively discouraged by friends, family, etc. Online advice groups almost unanimously discouraged even talking to an ex again - but we're dealing with Z-ennials now, and I believe they have different views, both of what a "serious relationship" might be, and how to go about remaining "friends" after a break-up. Of course, I still have tearful young women in my office each semester who have been harmed in some way by an SO with whom they are "broken up." And I give them the advice I've seen given by Millennials - which at the first sign of trouble (including arguing over a dog), you just go NO CONTACT (with instructions on how to do it). Z-ennials do not want to do that. They think there should be a pathway to continued friendship (until, of course, there's a problem, but even then, very reluctant to go to police - who will tell them the same thing I tell them - and very reluctant to go completely No Contact).

Back in my dating days (and I didn't date much), nearly all break-ups were fraught with neurotic emotion or worse. Today appears to be different, though. OTOH, it appears to me that if that is indeed JD at the Corner Club, that KG did the right thing and met him in public - and with a couple of friends nearby.

But yeah, I would never have asked the ex-boyfriend onto the stage at the memorial for my daughter. And probably not current boyfriend (fiancé yes, because by that stage, the two young men - who are amazing people - were very much part of the family).

I thought the guy who was front and center was Ethan's friend (who is also a friend of Kaylee's as seen in the body cam videos, but he doesn't mention her at the memorial). Awkwardness.



I figure they invited him up there. Surely. (Although Mr G's expression as it ends tells a different story). It may just be me but Mr and Mrs Goncalves seem to have different views on some things, as grieving parents often do,

I would expect a daughter's X to show up in the audience, but I would never have asked an X to be on the stage. I didn't realize at the time of the memorial that K has 4 sisters, either.

At the beginning, when Mr. G starts speaking, he says we brought J. up here. Keep in mind I am not using exact words but it is in the video of the memorial. It seemed normal and definitely seemed like they invited him on stage. At the end, I noticed the change of expression as well.. it was off. I was wondering if he was disappointed that J. did not speak or did not want him hugging his wife... or ... not sure. But I definitely noticed the change. MOO JMO

 

[Miss Magnolia]

IMO, I think the killer watched the house from the back and entered after they fell asleep, than he departed. There were no confrontations.

I thought the balcony in the rear, on the second floor was initially near a road but it's a parking lot for an apartment complex next door. Could this uphill drive way into the parking lot of the red brick dwelling be the point of entry and exit to that balcony?

 

[Mad Hettie]

TY - I would love everyone's opinion on it,

I think you can slow this down and see SG's tight expression, where he's gritting his jaw together, all the way through. He does it most often when he's looking at his wife and it is no surprise that he does it at the end when she turns to JD and hugs him because that signals the end of their time on stage and he knows he only has a few more moments until he can get out of the public eye and lose it himself. MOO.

I also note that he is purposeful in the way he introduces JD and his voice is warm as he does so.

What a very hard day that must have been for him and everyone on stage at that time. IMO

 

[javi]

Just to inform anyone who may not know about the scream.

The police bodycam video that was released that may or may not be a scream is open to anyone's interpretation. And the police have made no official determination as to what it was.

However the scream that was widely reported that was said to be from an apartment in the apartment buildings next to the house, where a girl appears to say

STOP IT..... leave me a--lone

is a fraud.

It was overdubbed by a YouTuber from another recording of those words from a domestic abuse incident and then put it out as factual scream from the murder house.

This is Ashley Banfield from NewsNation interviewing the person who discovered the recording was a fraud. I have to use this link to show it in order for you to see it but this is from her show BANFIELD.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

I think he just did his business and slinked away into the night.

Pretty much, and he’s probably had prior experience in this field of pursuit. Jmoo

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Scott Peterson case is an example - they knew it was him but took 4 months to collect enough evidence to ensure a conviction.

If I remember right the in-laws stood by him 100% and he was at every memorial, news presser ect. LE never said he was a POI at first. It took his mistress coming forward to turn LE attention towards him and stop the victims family from defending him. Of course that was an entirely different scenario than this case is as there is no pregnant wife in this one.

JMO

 

[hthrawr]

I'd not heard the Backpacking part but had heard she was going to Europe and then had a job lined up in Tx. I had wondered why she did not stay for graduation but if her name was not on the list then she did have credits to complete. I doubt she was likely paying for the tuition or the rent. Her FB shows a photo dump of her Freshman year, dated Mar of 2020. Maybe she was interning and transferring her credits to a University in Texas.

If the photos are from March of her freshman year 2020 then 2019 would have been when she started. (August/September are typically when school starts) which would make her a senior set to graduate in the spring of 2023, right? So her name wouldn't be on the list of graduates yet unless she took way more credits during the school year plus summer courses. Even then since she technically wasn't able to take her final exams this semester, she wouldn't have been on the list of graduates anyway.

 

[gliving]

As you pointed out, that is what Mr G SAID the Coroner told him. I don't think that should be given much accuracy at this point. But again it is an example of someone saying they were told something, and pretty soon the underlying statement is taken as fact. This is why hearsay is not allowed in court. A stab with a survival type knife, like a K-bar with a serrated back side, would leave horrific wounds from just a stab. It would rip the flesh as it is withdrawn. But it is still a stab.

Here's a copy of the four student's cause and manner of death. I'll take it objectively and refrain from any subjective bias

The key difference between objective and subjective is that objective information is based on unbiased and factual data. Whereas, subjective statements are biased and based on opinions and interpretations. Manner of death: stabbing

​ ​ PRESS RELEASE​ Latah County Coroner's Autopsy Results for Homicide Victims FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE​ ​ ​ November 18, 2022 (Moscow, Idaho) — On behalf of the Latah County Coroner's Office, the City of Moscow Police Department is releasing the cause and manner of death for the homicides at 1122 King St., Moscow, Idaho. Date of Release:11/17/2022 Date of Pronounced Death: 11/13/2022 @ 12 noon Name: Ethan Chapin Age: 20 Years Biological Sex: Male Hometown: Conway, Washington Name: Kaylee Goncalves Age: 21 Years Biological Sex: Female Hometown: Rathdrum, Idaho Name: Xana Kernodle Age: 20 Years Biological Sex: Female Hometown: Post Falls, Idaho Name: Madison Mogen Age: 21 Years Biological Sex: Female Hometown: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho Place of Pronounced Death: 1122 King Rd, Moscow, Idaho Cause of Death: Homicide -- Murder Manner of Death: Stabbing ### Story Contact: Cathy Mabbutt, Latah County Coroner Phone: (509) 334-8558 Email: Cathy@mabbuttlaw.com​ ​ ​ ​

Latah County Coroner's Autopsy Results for Homicide Victims

 

[Cryptic]

Can someone live in a sorority house while not being a member of that sorority?

As there are dozens of fraternities and sororities at hundreds of colleges, it might not be best to speak in absolute terms.

But.....

Several female aquantiances of mine joined sororities and then expressed dismay when they were told that The House was full and that they could not live there as freshmen.

Living in "The House" could well be a big part of the experience of being a member. As a result, I am guessing: "No- one cannot live in The House unless one is a member."- at least in almost all cases.

 

[10ofRods]

I'd not heard the Backpacking part but had heard she was going to Europe and then had a job lined up in Tx. I had wondered why she did not stay for graduation but if her name was not on the list then she did have credits to complete. I doubt she was likely paying for the tuition or the rent. Her FB shows a photo dump of her Freshman year, dated Mar of 2020. Maybe she was interning and transferring her credits to a University in Texas.

It's exceedingly hard to transfer for one semester and then graduate (most schools have a residency requirement linked to accreditation - but she might not have been in a hurry, since she already had a job).

Her mom says she was paying for rent and Venmo shows she was paying for utilities. Her mom says her tuition was from a student loan (normal), but that does mean she had only so many semesters left of loans for tuition as an undergrad.

She matriculated to U of I in 2019. She probably planned to finish her units by online classes (profs tend to be less rigid about this, these days and her major was not one that required a skills demonstration as a capstone). I feel so badly for her and her parents, that she didn't get to go to graduation, that her young dreams ended this way.

I wish U of I had seen fit to award her degree if she was only 6-9 units short and had started completion of those units, but I guess I get why they didn't. I just wish they'd be more rigid about alcohol on campus. Kaylee was trying to be responsible (IMO) and combine that with being popular and ambitious.

MOO of course.

Well K's father did seem to ask J at 24:35-ish if he wanted to say something so that seems gracious, in my opinion. To me, it just seemed like he was finished honoring his daughter. If his wife wanted to reach out to J, that was her deal, but he was finished. I did not sense any obvious animosity. He just wasn't going to "reach out" per se, like his wife did. Imo of course. ETA: And my comment concerning this thought got deleted earlier but I stand by it- Maybe K's father held some (misplaced) anger that J was not there to protect her (not saying he should have been!) They were together for 5 years and we aren't privy to past events in their relationship which could factor into his demeanor as well.

I'll have to watch again - I didn't see that moment where Dad seems to ask J if wants to say something (that makes a difference). Maybe that's why there was that look toward the end. I agree that most fathers would be feeling ambivalent toward Ex BF in a situation like this (mine would have been livid about the not answering of the phone calls).