ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

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Wyle_E_Coyote

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Dogs and babies=though trails and success rate's. Is it because nobody wants to send their child of into the woods alone so a dog can do it's practice? Could be! Can't blame then. Could it be that they also don't smell quite right? Babies have a distinct smell. Young kids don't need to bathe for body odor often. How much skin cells do they she's? Enough cases to make me wonder, no science on it yet though. But, a lot of dogs have trouble with lil ones.

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Just want to say thank you, sarx. I've always found it to be a treat when you show up on a thread I'm following. I learn so much from you!

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LayzeeDayzee

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IMO, just because LE makes a public claim that a missing child's parents are not under suspicion, I wouldn't take that as the gospel truth. I believe in general, LE is very careful and calculated in what info they release, and with good reason. Speaking in general, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities for LE to give the perception to a missing child's family that they are not under suspicion while simultaneously keeping a very close eye on their every move, giving the family involved a false sense of security while waiting and watching for any slip-ups or complacency on the part of said family.

Again, speaking in general, IMO it would be easier for LE who suspects some kind of family involvement with a missing child, to lead the family into believing that LE trusts them........while covertly investigating them, in hopes of getting leads.........versus giving the parents any reason to think they are being suspected such that parents decide to 'lawyer up' and stop talking.

I'm thinking of the Noah Thomas case (little boy in Virginia whose body was found in a septic tank on parent's property). In that case we were lead to believe early on that LE didn't suspect them. They even allowed the parents to attend the little boy's funeral, and then I believe it was the next day both parents were arrested.

Just speaking in general, I think it would be a dangerous practice, in the case of a missing child, for any LE to quickly decide that parents are "good" and no reason to suspect them. We've all seen/read far too many cases where nobody would have ever imagined that one/both parents could have been involved in their child's disappearance/murder, only to find out they very much were.

So for me, from where I sit, speaking totally in general and I am certainly not accusing the parents of anything, but just because the Sheriff early on stated no issues w/ parents, I am not going to automatically believe with certainty that this IS the case, or remains the case. JMO.

The more I think about this boy and the possibility he wandered away, I am not willing to take anything off the table meaning abduction, foul play prior or after their arrival, an accident covered up ....... But LE has made it clear they are "good" with the parents.... So what do we not yet know then? Different direction of investigation to me sounds they suspect abduction, yet they are scaling back the search..... I'm lost on this one
 

gregjrichards

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"Police have admitted they have ‘not one clue’ as to the whereabouts of a missing toddler in Idaho, despite sonar searches of a nearby reservoir and wolf den.

Two-year-old Deorr Kunz disappeared on July 10 from an Idaho Falls campsite, where he was staying with his parents, grandfather and another family friend.

Police have scoured the countryside surrounding the remote campsite near Timber Creek Reservoir, in Leodore, but have found nothing."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-not-one-clue-whereabouts.html#ixzz3gWOS2OCt

New article thought I would post I hope there is a break in the case soon.
 

steelman

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He's still there somewhere. It looks as though LE is going to open the area back up to the public, which is a good thing.

Let people get back in there to go camping with their coon hounds and chihuahua's, along with their ATV's and rock climbing gear, somebody will come across him sooner or later.

This isn't some hoax or cover-up, if it was, the entire family would have to be in on it..... all of them.
The chances of that happening are about as likely as the chances that me and Lady Gaga are gonna get married some day.

I think his parents went off on a walk, grandpa got busy setting up camp and doing other things, Deorr saw his parents leave the camp, and headed out after them, unbeknownst to Grandpa.

After he got into the brush, he lost his line of sight along with his sense of direction. He started walking through the woods and got further and further away with every step. By the time his parents returned to camp, searched for him for at least 30 to 45 minutes and then called 911, he already had a 1-hour head start on everybody.

I think it's likely that he did head down to the creek area, but he got distracted along the way as you would expect a 3 year old to do. When he refocused and began traveling again, he was headed up creek, AWAY from the reservoir, not towards it. If he was traveling cross-country, the leaves, grass and vegetation on the ground would have prevented footprints from being visible. The same applies if it rained at all, rain washes away footprints.

The biggest challenge in this search was knowing which way he headed. Nobody knows for sure. This means that rather than being able to focus the search to one small quadrant or sector, they have to search in a radius, which increases the entire search zone to 4x times as much land area.

I think they are going to find him before long, and I also think it may shock everybody how far away he made it from the camp that first day and night.
 

ClaireNC

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Wolves are not man or baby eaters. They make a real effort to stay away from humans as they know they are likely to get shot. Less than a handful of attacks in all of North America have ever been recorded. I have spent a lot of time in the wilderness and getting to see any of the big 3 is so rare, especially the wolf. It is a treat and I never felt like they were looking at me like dinner. Quite the opposite, they were very wary of me. They have lots of natural prey to eat up there ( which is why people hate them). Not a likely scenario imo.

Thanks for joining the discussion Sarx! I always appreciate your insights. I agree with you on the predators say away from people in the vast wilderness areas. I've camped, hiked and hunted in Idaho and Montana, including camping and hiking with small children. Only once saw a bear and that was far across a field, when he caught wind of us he quickly moved away. I'm more likely to see a bear, coyote, or bobcat here on my property in coastal North Carolina then see such animals in the wilds of Idaho. (We don't have mountain lions here, but we do have bobcats.)
 

Hatfield

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Thanks for joining the discussion Sarx! I always appreciate your insights. I agree with you on the predators say away from people in the vast wilderness areas. I've camped, hiked and hunted in Idaho and Montana, including camping and hiking with small children. Only once saw a bear and that was far across a field, when he caught wind of us he quickly moved away. I'm more likely to see a bear, coyote, or bobcat here on my property in coastal North Carolina then see such animals in the wilds of Idaho. (We don't have mountain lions here, but we do have bobcats.)

Of all the animals that I think could be possible in this case, the Cougar worries me the most. The way they can just pick up a child like that and carry them off with little blood at the scene is what concerns me about them.

They are a very large cat and if you ever see 1 up close like in a zoo you begin to realize just how large a Cougar really is.

They are making somewhat of a comeback and are very rarely seen by humans.

I have only seen a bear once in the wild and I considered it a treat also. I was driving through some eastern mountains in upstate NY near the Adirondacks and saw a huge black bear down off the side of the highway about 1/4 mile away. It was incredibly huge even from that distance. I estimated it had to weigh about 500 pounds but was hard to tell at that distance.

Such a neat site to see a huge black bear in a field eating on something in the field. It was hunched over so couldnt tell what it was eating. It was minding its own business and no homes in the area.
 

BlkMtnGirl

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Thanks, Sarx!

I believe another WS poster determined that as well...

But...

I thought it was worth a try!

:seeya:

I'm no map expert, and know nothing about mines, but when I compared a google map (which has distances on it) with the mine map, it appears that the entrance to the closest mine is less than four miles from the campsite. I don't know how far mineshafts (is that the word for the tunnels?) typically go. Can someone more familiar chime in? Also, looking at the dozens of mines (currently in use?) within ten miles, I also think it's possible there is an old one not reported. Although, I think it's more likely to be a tunnel from a known mine, but I really have no idea about mines.
 

ClaireNC

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He's still there somewhere. It looks as though LE is going to open the area back up to the public, which is a good thing.

Let people get back in there to go camping with their coon hounds and chihuahua's, along with their ATV's and rock climbing gear, somebody will come across him sooner or later.

This isn't some hoax or cover-up, if it was, the entire family would have to be in on it..... all of them.
The chances of that happening are about as likely as the chances that me and Lady Gaga are gonna get married some day.

I think his parents went off on a walk, grandpa got busy setting up camp and doing other things, Deorr saw his parents leave the camp, and headed out after them, unbeknownst to Grandpa.

After he got into the brush, he lost his line of sight along with his sense of direction. He started walking through the woods and got further and further away with every step. By the time his parents returned to camp, searched for him for at least 30 to 45 minutes and then called 911, he already had a 1-hour head start on everybody.

I think it's likely that he did head down to the creek area, but he got distracted along the way as you would expect a 3 year old to do. When he refocused and began traveling again, he was headed up creek, AWAY from the reservoir, not towards it. If he was traveling cross-country, the leaves, grass and vegetation on the ground would have prevented footprints from being visible. The same applies if it rained at all, rain washes away footprints.

The biggest challenge in this search was knowing which way he headed. Nobody knows for sure. This means that rather than being able to focus the search to one small quadrant or sector, they have to search in a radius, which increases the entire search zone to 4x times as much land area.

I think they are going to find him before long, and I also think it may shock everybody how far away he made it from the camp that first day and night.

Great post Steelman. Your scenario does seem like a possibility. Little DeOrr might have wandered off and went to sleep someplace under a bush or something, when they were initially searching. When he woke up he could have continued to wander away from the campsite.

Though I think he is a little young for it, he also might have initially hiding from his parents like it was a game, but fell asleep in his hiding place. When I was about 12 years old, one of the neighborhood children (I think she was about 3) disappeared for a while. The mother was frantic looking for her. First she called on us neighborhood kids to start searching. Called all the neighbors and had the whole neighborhood out looking. Eventually, when the little girl wasn't found she called the police. The police came and a big search ensued for about 2 hours. Somebody went back in to search the house and opened a coat closet to find the little girl asleep on the floor. Apparently the girl was hiding from her sister and went into the coat closet and fell asleep.
 

Hatfield

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I have been pondering over a child climbing up versus down since DeOrr went missing. I can only speak from my experience which is it was easier for my children to climb up than down any type of incline. Climbing up an incline provides the opportunity for unsteady children to use their hands as well as their feet. Climbing down creates such an unsteady feeling that my children felt the need to hold onto a hand to feel sure footed.

Agree that I would search straight up those steep banks. I would also search further down the stream.

When dealing with a very young child like this 2 year old the searchers need to not even try to "think" which way he would have chosen to go. Because a child like that is not an adult and not going to make the same choices adults would make.

A child like that would not care that it is very steep mountain. They would just take off and go. An adult would think about routes and least resistance and stuff like that but not a child.

So searchers need to throw out any kind of logical thinking like that.

I heard the Dad in the interview and I cringed about where he thought he would not walk. He said something about the "steep" cliffs on both sides of campground.
It doesnt matter to a child.

Also he said the water is so shallow. Again it doesnt matter because of CURRENT. Even if it is only 1 foot deep. The Current still could have carried and bounced a little boy like that far down the creek until the boy got stuck on something.

Objects bounce and tumble and get carried downstream in strong currents. It sounded like this creek was a strong running creek.
So the shallow depth does not matter and its possible he got carried and bounced on down the creek.

JMO
Based on the dogs circling back to campground I am leaning towards like the Sheriff and I am going in another direction though.

I dont want to give up on searching there though. Its just I dont think that is what has happened.
 

Cardinal47

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Just caught up with 7 pages. 10 days seems yo be the amount of time tor s search. I think turing that busy time s lot of tips and information was received by the Sheriffs office.

Now they are following up on those
tips and leads.

I am kind of curious about how the Sheriff found out about cremains. Old, new and did somebody in the family share that information.
 

Hatfield

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As far as the cremains.

Did we see that the person caught dumping cremains was doing it at night?

If so, I find that odd and am wondering if there is some tie to this case.

Like was previously suggested it is possible the person dumping the cremains was trying throw off the dogs. If they went to the reservoir at the area where it spills into the creek then they may have felt it would carry down the stream and throw the dogs off all down that stream.

Maybe they got caught before they made it to the area where they intended to throw the ashes.

Did we ever hear more about who had the ashes and were they in any way related to any of the family of the missing child?

I think the odds of the timing of that incident and especially if it was at night is making me lean towards thinking this could be related. If so, then LE is on top of it and glad they caught the person dumping the cremains.
 

Hatfield

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So the dogs scent ended up at the campsite?

My understanding is the dogs hit around the campsite and not further out from there. The only other spot the dogs hit on was up near the reservoir and LE thinks the dogs could have gotten confused with the cremains at the reservoir area for the people dumping the cremains up there.
 

CatsInTheCradle

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I have been uncomfortable since the word cremains first popped up on this case. Like others have asked, how did LE know this?
 

Hatfield

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I have been uncomfortable since the word cremains first popped up on this case. Like others have asked, how did LE know this?

I had assumed they caught someone dumping them but maybe not. We will have to search for the LE comments about the cremains to see what info has been said about them.
 

keeponsearching

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The campsite seems really open. Where did the parents walk off to? It would be nice to have a sketch of the area and how things were set up, where each person was. The possibilities of the direction Deorr could of gone in. Did they have a tent set up, which direction was the opening, where the vehicles were parked. It would be very hard for a vehicle to drive up and take Deorr. I don't know.
 

Hatfield

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I have been uncomfortable since the word cremains first popped up on this case. Like others have asked, how did LE know this?

Here is what i found when googling. The person dumping them were dumping them during the investigation so this seems like a real possible link to this case IMO. The odds of the timing is too coincidental to me. I think it is related and was being done to throw off investigation IMO. Too coincidental for me.

"Crews have spent dozens of hours focusing on the Stone Reservoir after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. On Friday, Bowerman told HLN they learned someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

"It's pretty disappointing," Bowerman said to HLN. "Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we're searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area.""

http://www.kxlh.com/story/29588066/officials-scaling-back-search-efforts-for-deorr-kunz
 

perfectingpink

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I had assumed they caught someone dumping them but maybe not. We will have to search for the LE comments about the cremains to see what info has been said about them.

Or...we can nominate someone to call LE to clarify... :phone:
 
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