ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

[Fitzrobin]

Hoping they do open up the area to other campers. Investigations sometimes become tunneled and ideas outside the box are passed off as impossible or improbable. At this point, now that a grid search is over, allow others to walk the hillsides and with fresh eyes and energy. So sad for this little boy. I am still not convinced that this child was ever at the campsite. I know that 4 family members all reporting the same timeline and story is improbable. About as improbable as a missing two year-old in the vast wilderness with absolutely no trace of him ever being there other then the belongings that were left in the truck. Also has it been verified that the sighting at the store (5 hours off from timeline) was even dad and child? Coincidence? There are only 109 people in Leadore. How many visitors from out of the area can the store have in one day?

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Here is what i found when googling. The person dumping them were dumping them during the investigation so this seems like a real possible link to this case IMO. The odds of the timing is too coincidental to me. I think it is related and was being done to throw off investigation IMO. Too coincidental for me.

"Crews have spent dozens of hours focusing on the Stone Reservoir after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. On Friday, Bowerman told HLN they learned someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

"It's pretty disappointing," Bowerman said to HLN. "Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we're searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area.""

http://www.kxlh.com/story/29588066/officials-scaling-back-search-efforts-for-deorr-kunz

But if it were related to Deorr, the whole group would have to be involved, it would have to be premeditated. .. unless they always carried cremains around with them???

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[leep]

New article: Wolf den searched nearby

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...o-toddler-admit-not-one-clue-whereabouts.html

 

[SweetT]

Wouldn't the person with the cremains have seen the SAR teams and said "Hey this may not be a good time"? Was it a crematory place doing it or an individual with a relative? IDK just questions. But is stupid to dump cremains when SAR is going on...
I realized after looking at a map that I actually have been fairly close to this area about a month ago while out ghost hunting in Bannack MT. I was surprised by the LACK of bear signs in camping areas cause where I'm at they are EVERYWHERE. I even asked a worker at Bannack who said they have no real problems with bears around there. I do think a mountain lion could carry that kid off though, and quickly. Isn't there forest rangers out that way who can help find dens etc? Look for mountain lion poop and all that stuff?
Abduction by stranger is still possible as well as falling into some old miners shaft. Anyways lots of questions, little answers.

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

Here is what i found when googling. The person dumping them were dumping them during the investigation so this seems like a real possible link to this case IMO. The odds of the timing is too coincidental to me. I think it is related and was being done to throw off investigation IMO. Too coincidental for me.

"Crews have spent dozens of hours focusing on the Stone Reservoir after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. On Friday, Bowerman told HLN they learned someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

"It's pretty disappointing," Bowerman said to HLN. "Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we're searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area.""

http://www.kxlh.com/story/29588066/officials-scaling-back-search-efforts-for-deorr-kunz

BBM
Right but did LE stumble upon them doing this or someone inform LE they were doing this. (I know we don't know at this point). :websleuther:I want to steal the posters screen name "InTheDetails" lol because I always want to know the nuts to soup version.

 

[Mountain]

How rough is the road? Passenger car? High clearance? 4x?

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The road is rough and rocky. I saw a video of someone driving on it (sorry I do not know where that was) and they said you need a SUV or heavy duty truck to get there.

 

[4senthia]

Just another strange Agatha Christie "think beyond what seems obvious" thought:
If there are clusters suggesting serial killings, in very remote places they often do cremate their victims. In the Lyon sisters' case the fire that the 2 duffel bags smelling of decomposition is said to have burned for days.
We know that some killers like Israel Keyes are almost brilliant. I can't put it past an abductor who would wait for even a very long time at a remote location to snatch a child. It's a game for them.
Dumping cremains from an unrelated case would put a fly in LE's ointment for sure.
And I agree. Since the very first mention of cremains my cockles have been up.
The only other thought I have related to this could, and I mean only remotely, lie in the background of "someone" close to this case having a background in mortuary/funeral/scientific research.
As of this moment I've not seen any links to LE specifically saying that they know who dumped the cremains.
I apologize in advance if there has now been one and for the indelicate nature of this post.
jmoho

 

[jmcgladr]

Just another strange Agatha Christie "think beyond what seems obvious" thought:
If there are clusters suggesting serial killings, in very remote places they often do cremate their victims. In the Lyon sisters' case the fire that the 2 duffel bags smelling of decomposition is said to have burned for days.
We know that some killers like Israel Keyes are almost brilliant. I can't put it past an abductor who would wait for even a very long time at a remote location to snatch a child. It's a game for them.
Dumping cremains from an unrelated case would put a fly in LE's ointment for sure.
And I agree. Since the very first mention of cremains my cockles have been up.
The only other thought I have related to this could, and I mean only remotely, lie in the background of "someone" close to this case having a background in mortuary/funeral/scientific research.
As of this moment I've not seen any links to LE specifically saying that they know who dumped the cremains.
I apologize in advance if there has now been one and for the indelicate nature of this post.
jmoho

I wonder if it's possible to find part of the cremains (i.e. a bone fragment) and do a DNA test to see who it was?

 

[trigger]

Remember Joshua Childers, he left his home wearing a t shirt, sneakers and a diaper. Parents searched for one hour then called 911, One sneaker and his diaper were found a mile from his home. He was found by a volunteer 2 days later, lying down in a dry creek bottom wearing t shirt and one sneaker. The Missouri State Highway Patrol brought in planes. The state Water Patrol brought in divers and sonar. Dozens of dogs, horses, ATVs and even donkeys scattered in the miles around the tiny home that sits along the wild, rocky terrain of the Mark Twain National Forest. Mark Twain National Forest is known for its hills, cliffs and creeks. It is also known for its thousands of caves and black bears.

Unfortunately it's been so long now but if found, at least they can bring him home.

 

[IndianSummer]

I think of Shasta Groene case. She was observed from afar pre kidnapping.Taken to a remote campsite where her brother was killed & burned.
Elizabeth Smart was taken back to a prepared (camp)site.
Even the book Lovely Bones (sadly )comes to mind where the perp prepared for yrs the underground bunker.

JMO & sadness

 

[teeandcee]

What are everyone's theories? My main ones are accidental drowning or wild animal carried him off. Why no trace of him, I don't know.

1. Water-stream.
2. Predator, specifically cougar.
3. The mysterious friend with them.
4. Remote possibility is kidnapping.

 

[Hatfield]

BBM
Right but did LE stumble upon them doing this or someone inform LE they were doing this. (I know we don't know at this point). :websleuther:I want to steal the posters screen name "InTheDetails" lol because I always want to know the nuts to soup version.

Im with you.

Its just that I doubt LE will provide the details we need. Since its an active investigation they are most likely going to stay tight lipped about the who and specific circumstances.

JMO
I may be reading too much into what little we know but here is what I think happened about the cremains.
From reading just the little bits of info, it seems like someone came to LE and informed them about it. Then they most likely interviewed the person(s) that they were told about who confirmed to LE they did indeed dump cremains.

If it was just like a crematory business, then incident will likely go away but based on the incredible timing and coincidence I am leaning towards something more nefarious.

If the latter, then the person probably gave LE false information and LE has added it to the pile of circumstantial evidence they are collecting.

What I find really interesting is if this was nefarious then this would be the first time I ever heard about using cremains to throw off an investigation and it really is a unique idea for a perp to do. If that is the case, I wonder how the perp came up with this idea. Like has it ever been done before by a perp or not?

 

[4senthia]

Depending on whether the cremains were professionally processed (one would hope so), any remaining bone fragments would have been ground to a fine consistency before the cremains were released to a family or for final disposition. Nowadays crematories usually take a small sample before cremating so there is DNA.
If there were actual bone fragments sometimes DNA could remain in the bone marrow.
I really wish LE could further address this but I understand that it may very well be a key in this investigation.
IF they know who dumped the cremains that is a different story. But I have to wonder how carefully this entire situation was being observed considering that the dumping occurred during the active investigation.
It would be very difficult for someone to sneak into such a scene with all of the searching going on.
Hate to say it, but in some cases perps insert themselves as volunteers.
Makes my head spin and then some.
I smell a rat until we hear more info.
jmoho

 

[Mountain]

This question is for SARX professional searcher.
Why would the scent dogs keep returning to the campsite if the child had wandered off?

 

[4senthia]

Just a FYI:
http://www.cremationinfo.com/cremationinfo/Questions.htm
>snipped for relevance concerning bone fragments<
" It may surprise many to learn that ashes are not the final result since cremated remains have neither the appearance nor the chemical properties of ashes. They are, in fact, bone fragments. These fragments are further reduced in size through a mechanical process.."
jmoho

 

[Hatfield]

Days ago, when I first saw the info about "cremains", I thought the article spelled it wrong and meant "remains" because I have never seen that word before until this case.

Its amazing what we learn when researching these cases.

 

[jmcgladr]

Is it even legal to dump cremains in a reservoir in a National Forest? Seems doubtful - I would think you would at least need a permit?

 

[blefuscu]

There's a post on the "help find DeOrr Kunz" FB page by someone with the initials KG that the local LE need to look into. I'm in the UK and can't get in touch with local LE. Would one of you guys local check it out and if needs be alert the police to it?

 

[darcedarce]

Days ago, when I first saw the info about "cremains", I thought the article spelled it wrong and meant "remains" because I have never seen that word before until this case.

Its amazing what we learn when researching these cases.

Could the cremains have possibly been Deorr's?

 

[Hatfield]

Is it even legal to dump cremains in a reservoir in a National Forest? Seems doubtful - I would think you would at least need a permit?

I think it is illegal in a reservoir since those are used for drinking water. If it was a crematory business doing that I hope they get fined severely.

It reminds me of when years ago we started seeing hospital waiste and used needles showing up on East Coast beaches. It turned out some hospitals were dumping their biohazard waste in the ocean and it ended up washing ashore where people swim.

Huge fines should be given out for this sort of thing.