ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[Rayemonde]

Version 1: Little Deorr died before the trip. He got disposed of somewhere.
Version 2: Little Deorr died at the campground. He got disposed of somewhere but not near the campground.

Whether version 1 or 2, he had to have been in some car for a certain time and in a dead condition.
If the cadaver dogs didn't hit on the truck then little Deorr's body hasn't been the truck, not before arriving at the campground and not after leaving the campground.

Question: How did another unknown car come into play? What are the options?
I always missing a driver or a car or even both if I think about.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the dogs had hit on the truck and the sheriff had chosen to keep that secret from the public... But I'm going to go with what he told us.
I posted a link a couple of days ago about a missing child case where cadaver dog hits were a very important piece of evidence in a murder trial. An expert testified that the dogs were able to detect the scent of death as soon 2 hours after death. I don't know if different dogs have different training and some can smell it much sooner, or what credentials the particular dogs used at the campground had (lol, can dogs have credentials? ), but it's certainly possible that the dogs weren't able to find the scent of death in Vernal's truck because DeOrr hadn't been dead long enough.

 

[Trident]

Lots of good thinking going on here, let's keep it coming.

What bothers me a LOT is VK and his black truck. Didn't he say in one interview (paraphrase) the trouble is I have a black truck? The truck and why he might have been seen where he was seems to be a BIG problem for him, something he wants to explain or cover for. I wonder if these thoughts hit him AFTER he discovered the lower campground could be seen from the upper one. Also, when the DRONE came in, about day 3/4? or so, what were they looking for, and where were they looking? Were they checking out what could be seen from the upper camp?

I'm not putting any of this very well. I need another cup of coffee.

 

[ClaireNC]

Some great thinking here this morning. Currently my thought is somewhere around Ray's first two scenarios and purplepixii's number 6, but MBK might be on to something too.

The trip to the store has a reason, and, it wasn't just to buy feminine products, IMO. I wonder what they did buy? Could their purchase include something that was used to dispose of a body? Or cleaning supplies to clean the truck? Or was it just an excuse to go hide a body. Klein's comment about Deorr being "on the mountain" makes me believe he is up there somewhere, just not near the campsite.

The emphasis on that they went to the store "as a family" sticks out and makes me ask "now why did he say that?" Trying to establish that the little Deorr was alive and well? Or some other reason?

Did they actually have cadaver dogs search VDK's truck? I believe the cadaver dogs were brought in to search the campsite on that Sunday or Monday. VDK's truck was not at the campsite at that time. Remember they were asked to move away from the campsite and were camping out a mile or so away? Weren't they in Idaho Falls on that Monday doing the long interview with EIN? Wasn't there also some kind of vigil on Sunday or Monday where VDK and JM spoke?

 

[Rayemonde]

Did they actually have cadaver dogs search VDK's truck? I believe the cadaver dogs were brought in to search the campsite on that Sunday or Monday. VDK's truck was not at the campsite at that time. Remember they were asked to move away from the campsite and were camping out a mile or so away? Weren't they in Idaho Falls on that Monday doing the long interview with EIN? Wasn't there also some kind of vigil on Sunday or Monday where VDK and JM spoke?

Seriously?? Wow. I'm sure they would have had cadaver dogs in the truck at some point, but if it wasn't right away they would have had more time to clean it out.

Also, surely they searched the truck and camper for blood using luminol... I don't know when that would have been, though. Since the parents weren't arrested or anything, could they have seized the truck as evidence? Or asked the parents to voluntarily turn it over, and provided them with a courtesy truck? LE must have searched the truck, camper, and parents' home really thoroughly for biological evidence at some point... I just don't know if it would have been immediately or if they'd have a chance to clean up thoroughly first.

 

[neesaki]

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the dogs had hit on the truck and the sheriff had chosen to keep that secret from the public... But I'm going to go with what he told us.
I posted a link a couple of days ago about a missing child case where cadaver dog hits were a very important piece of evidence in a murder trial. An expert testified that the dogs were able to detect the scent of death as soon 2 hours after death. I don't know if different dogs have different training and some can smell it much sooner, or what credentials the particular dogs used at the campground had (lol, can dogs have credentials? ), but it's certainly possible that the dogs weren't able to find the scent of death in Vernal's truck because DeOrr hadn't been dead long enough.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cadaver dogs had hit either. Actually SB states they did hit on the reservoir, but then he writes it off to being the cremains dumping that threw off the dogs. To the public, that is. After going back over it though, I'm actually questioning whether the cremains may be a red herring, and they really do believe the dogs hit was real, which is why they seem so sure that little Deorr was not abducted. jmo

Also, IIRC those people that spread cremains weren't in that immediate area but on the opposite side of the reservoir.

TRANSCRIPT

True Crime Radio
Tricia Griffith

Guest: Sheriff Lynn D. Bowerman to discuss missing toddler, Deorr Kunz Jr., missing from Leadore Idaho, July 10, 2015

Thursday, October 15, 2015

11:17
SB: Yes! We dove the reservoir at least four days. We put a side-scan sonar in on one day. We also uh flew a helicopter both in daylight and at night with the FLIR to illuminate for body heat, and we found absolutely nothing other than our canines alerted on it but we found that someone had come in behind us and had uh put some human cremains in of a loved one and that kind of threw our dogs off.


Transcript

January 28, 2016

True Crime Radio – I Heart Radio Network

Tricia Griffith (TG) with Guest: Sheriff Bowerman (SB)

RE: DEORR KUNZ JR CASE - Missing July 10, 2015, Timber Creek Campground, Leadore, ID

Bessie: Right, I remember you telling us the last time. One of the other questions that comes up a lot is about the dog searches and the cadaver dogs, and we know that they were thrown off by the cremains in the reservoir, but before or after that did the…did either the scent dogs or the cadaver dogs alert or show any, you know, find anything that was relevant?

11:43
SB: You know, we had a couple alerts you know that were just kind of, we consider nothing major, but um a dog reacts unusual in a certain area and so we put more dogs in there and then the other dogs alerted so, um…you know. Actually, it’s been not real positive from having those dogs in there. We didn’t have anything that really led us to a certain place within our 3 mile radius.

 

[MBK]

Also, surely they searched the truck and camper for blood using luminol... I don't know when that would have been, though. Since the parents weren't arrested or anything, could they have seized the truck as evidence? Or asked the parents to voluntarily turn it over, and provided them with a courtesy truck? LE must have searched the truck, camper, and parents' home really thoroughly for biological evidence at some point... I just don't know if it would have been immediately or if they'd have a chance to clean up thoroughly first.

I have been wondering about the luminol for quite some time.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Scenario #7 (Lost count!) Okay, here's a scenario I brought up before . . . in part.
Thursday night, VK and DM go to the bar and grill in Leadore. Little Deorr stays in the car. While they are inside, Deorr gets OUT of the car, possibly looking for his mother. He wanders away. When VK and DM get out of the car, they don't remember that little Deorr was with them, and they drive off. In the morning, when they wake up, shortly before 8 am, they realize . . . where's little Deorr? They drive back to town to get feminine products, etc., etc., and FIND little Deorr. He's filthy, and crying.
7.1 He's badly injured from a fall, etc., . . . he dies and they bury him in the sand pit. The French fry order is a "cover" for the fact that he's dead. (Hmmmm . . . I don't THINK this is working in terms of the cadaver dogs not hitting on the car, but I suppose they're not infallible.)
7.2 He's hit by a car as he's walking down the road looking for mommy. The person who hits him didn't even see him in the darkness. They can't figure out where this little kid came from. They take him with them and bury him elsewhere.

I'm sure there's more possibilities to expand on Scenario 7.

Addition to 7.2: The driver is GGP (with IR) who was also in the bar but started first for driving to the campground in the middle of the night. Little Deorr had left the parent's truck and GGP didn't see him in the dark when he wanted to drive off.
Another version - but unlikely. Some guests of the bar probably would have heard voices/noises of an incident.

 

[Kairi'sMom]

For those of you interested in cadaver dogs, I recommend watching Manson's Missing Victims. It's available on Netflix.
I watched it a month or so ago. It has good info on dogs that are specially trained to sniff out very old graves and how they are trained to do that, as well as the way they find old graves when dogs hit on a spot where there's nothing found initially. It's not deep information because the subject is finding victims of Manson, but it will give you a good idea of the process of finding buried victims.

 

[ClaireNC]

Seriously?? Wow. I'm sure they would have had cadaver dogs in the truck at some point, but if it wasn't right away they would have had more time to clean it out.

Also, surely they searched the truck and camper for blood using luminol... I don't know when that would have been, though. Since the parents weren't arrested or anything, could they have seized the truck as evidence? Or asked the parents to voluntarily turn it over, and provided them with a courtesy truck? LE must have searched the truck, camper, and parents' home really thoroughly for biological evidence at some point... I just don't know if it would have been immediately or if they'd have a chance to clean up thoroughly first.

Yes I am serious. We don't know if they searched the truck with cadaver dogs or their houses either. Is it standard procedure to always use dogs in those searches? My point is, that it seems like VDK's truck was not at the campground when they were using the dogs. Did they bring the dogs in again to later search the trucks and houses? I certainly hope they did and also hope they did a thorough search for biological evidence. But we don't know for a fact that they did.

I never heard anything about his truck being seized or anything. Not even rumors about it on social media. FWIW

 

[Rayemonde]

Yes I am serious. We don't know if they searched the truck with cadaver dogs or their houses either. Is it standard procedure to always use dogs in those searches? My point is, that it seems like VDK's truck was not at the campground when they were using the dogs. Did they bring the dogs in again to later search the trucks and houses? I certainly hope they did and also hope they did a thorough search for biological evidence. But we don't know for a fact that they did.

I never heard anything about his truck being seized or anything. Not even rumors about it on social media. FWIW

We only learned about the house being searched because the parents mentioned it to the media, IIRC. I think they said the FBI did it, and it was fairly soon after DeOrr went missing. The parents were looked at as possible suspects early on (as is routine in any case like this), so I'm sure the FBI searched everything thoroughly and ticked all the boxes...

 

[Rayemonde]

July 31st, 2015, article:

DeOrr’s parents confirm they have been in contact with the FBI and, according to Kunz, investigators have searched their house and vehicles.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/parents-of-deorr-kunz-we-pray-our-lil-man-will-be-found/

 

[ClaireNC]

We only learned about the house being searched because the parents mentioned it to the media, IIRC. I think they said the FBI did it, and it was fairly soon after DeOrr went missing. The parents were looked at as possible suspects early on (as is routine in any case like this), so I'm sure the FBI searched everything thoroughly and ticked all the boxes...

But we don't know if they used dogs in those searches.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html

Yet, science can't always compete with materials used to remove these stains, such as oxygen bleach. However, it is at least a positive step that we can identify these challenges, which means that efforts can be focused on finding ways to overcome them and identify blood even after all kinds of bleaching. In the end, this is good news for forensics but bad news for criminals.

 

[gliving]

My scenarios are usually based on the fact that no trace of Deorr has ever been found at the campsite. I don't think he made it there regardless of IR nodding that he saw him there.

If I were to guess, I'd say something happened to Deorr on the way to the campsite. Perhaps the parents stopped at a lookout point along the way and Deorr took a fatal fall off a tall cliff into a deep ravine. The parents have no way to get down to him and it's getting dark. The trip to town is to search again in the daylight.

His blanket, monkey and cup are in the truck, but he has his clothing, boots and toy cars with him.

The parents cover up because they weren't watching Deorr properly and are afraid of the backlash.

No remains will be found because it's the wilderness and nature takes it course.

They can't answer questions about what Deorr ate for breakfast because he didn't eat breakfast and they didn't plan ahead that far for their alibi.

 

[desert-blue]

Did DK own/have two black trucks at the time DeOrr disappeared?

 

[4senthia]

I also do not believe DeOrr ever made it to the campground, and I don't believe IR would have known him at all, since the parents didn't know IR.
I also think that there are several things that will show false presence for human blood:
http://the-gist.org/2011/03/seeing-red-–-presumptive-tests-for-blood/
"While at first glance this seems like a fantastic solution to the problem of how to detect blood residue, there are several issues with its use. The most significant is that the reaction is not specific to blood and it will in fact emit light in the presence of a range of substances including plant materials, metals and cleaning products such as bleach."
From Wikipedia-"Luminol can detect the small amount of blood present in urine, and can be distorted if animals urine is present in the room being tested."
I suppose that luminol would react to deer and other animal urine.
Good sleuthing folks!
jmo

 

[persimmon]

gliving, I'm under the impression the dogs hit on DeOrr's scent at the campsite just not away from it.

 

[courtneyb]

This is probably way out there, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. If DeOrr had a head injury, he may have had a severe nosebleed or bleeding from the ears. Growing up in the country, and being an unbelievably accident prone kid, (I once broke both feet in one day... 2 separate incidents [emoji15]) my dad taught me that tampons could staunch the blood flow from a severe nosebleed. Also, it would keep blood from getting everywhere. Do we know if they actually bought feminine products?


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[courtneyb]

gliving, I'm under the impression the dogs hit on DeOrr's scent at the campsite just not away from it.

Could the dogs have picked up his scent at the campground from just some of his items being present at the campground, even if he wasn't?


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[4senthia]

Good thinking. That's an excellent idea. The military teaches recruits to use hospital size pads for major bleeds on the battle field until help arrives.
jmo