ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[HoaZi]

True, but children apparently tend to go uphill when they wander

I'll admit I've never researched this, but it sounds odd to me. Has this been documented in a scientific way?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

IMO if there was any doubt about this particular aspect it would have featured prominently in Klein's outpourings.

If Klein said "the timeline being a fraud" then he certainly included TBC without naming her (because he still needs her unintended help, maybe for a future search in the only correct area ..., IMO)

 

[dizzychick]

So the belief is all 4 are lying ? even the friend of grandpa? What motive does he have to lie?

I was a PI for 22 years. It has been my experience that some PI's are a tad bit cagey, like the 1st one I worked for. He would throw his own client or his own agent under the bus if it made him money or attention. Unfortunely some of them are just worthless con artists.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

GGF's story designed for IR could be:

Stupid accident (maybe with drugs, alcohol), child unfortunately stone-dead, not to change, done is done. (IR has an understanding for drug/alcohol related problems.)
Poor poor young innocent Jessica in trouble now, OMG!
Deadly mistake OF COURSE for the most part caused by VDK!!!
Poor Jessica needs help because one day she would like to have her other 2 children back from her Ex.
After the fatal accident the chance would be ZERO!!

ONLY therefore the accident has to be covered up. IR is known to issues with police etc., has understanding for sure?? (GGF asks.)

IR would have nothing to do. Accompany GGF and only say if asked by authorities "yes, I saw little Deorr". Before he "saw him" and afterwards IR either would sleep/drink or go fishing (in any case had his eyes closed or always looking into an innocuous direction). (GGF suggests.) The remaining things would be done by GGF/JMA/VDK/TBC maybe make a story up about stranger abduction/lion prey etc. No worry dear IR, my friend!!

IMO MOO IMO

 

[Onebest]

I'll admit I've never researched this, but it sounds odd to me. Has this been documented in a scientific way?

Lost person bevavior (LPB) is studied extensivily and the documentation utilized and trained in SAR. Google "Lost Person Behavior" for documents and books. There is a category for children 1-3 years old. They usually wander aimlessly and don't really have a concept of being lost. Not sure about going uphill.....JMO

Heres a few:
https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/...ssing Person Behaviour Handbook June 2003.pdf

http://www.alpine-rescue.org/ikar-cisa/documents/2007/2005-TC-18-Predicting-Lost-Person-Behavior.pdf

https://natsar.amsa.gov.au/documents/Land-Operations/LSOM_Appendix_I.pdf

 

[desert-blue]

I'll admit I've never researched this, but it sounds odd to me. Has this been documented in a scientific way?

I remember reading early on in this case about lost child behavior and it was mentioned that young children/toddlers may get down and crawl and may go uphill, which is counterintuitive to what one might expect. It was back when people were discussing the search radius and trying to determine how far in what direction DeOrr might have gone. I don't have a link and I'm probably not going to spend time looking for one because I don't think DeOrr wandered off. If you go back through the discussions here from back in July of last year, you'll probably come across something. I think it may have been brought up in some of the early news stories as well. Or, you can just disregard it all together because it seems unlikely that it applies to DeOrr's case anyway.

 

[koios]

I wouldn't "haul" down the road in a big truck looking for a small child. That's a great way to accidentally run over him.

Thankyou DatelineFan.
Is it possible that the child had simply wandered off, and was slightly beyond the limited radius of the very first on-foot searches?

 

[koios]

Then you are proceeding on a different assumption than LE are, and theirs is based on evidence.

I think the only evidence that the child ever arrived at the campground is the words of the 4 adults.
If, based on numerous discrepancies, an investigative decision is made to dismiss their words, that leaves an absence of evidence that the child arrived at the campground.
There is an important difference between that, and finding positive evidence confirming definitely that the child never arrived at the campground.
Is there any positive evidence, that he definitely never arrived? For example did the person who pumped diesel in Leadore say definitely 100% there was no child in the truck? Or did he say that he was not certain?

 

[mommylicious]

Thankyou DatelineFan.
Is it possible that the child had simply wandered off, and was slightly beyond the limited radius of the very first on-foot searches?

While it's definitely still possible. I think a lot of us keep coming back to the changing stories and strange behaviors of those involved both immediately after and since the disappearance. The rejection of a reward (put up by someone else, so it wasn't a question of not having the $$), the lack of media attention sought by the family (especially considering they were the ones to put forth the abduction theory). The way J seems to have so easily moved on with her life. Add that to the fact that LE, Vilt and Klein have all stated that they believe that parents know more than they are letting on and you'll see why a lot of us have pulled away from the "wandered away" theory. A lot of us had an odd feeling about the case and the parents from that very first interview - long before Klein and Vilt were involved. If you look back at the beginning threads, you'll see a lot more people in defense of the parents. But as time has gone on and more information has come out (or hasn't), you'll see the shift in thinking.

 

[desert-blue]

Thankyou DatelineFan.
Is it possible that the child had simply wandered off, and was slightly beyond the limited radius of the very first on-foot searches?

I don't think that's possible.


Here is a quote from Bowerman about the search efforts the day DeOrr went missing:

"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him," said Bowerman.

source: http://www.localnews8.com/news/kifi-top-story/3-months-still-no-sign-of-missing-toddler_20160825060019981/58268876

 

[desert-blue]

I think the only evidence that the child ever arrived at the campground is the words of the 4 adults.
If, based on numerous discrepancies, an investigative decision is made to dismiss their words, that leaves an absence of evidence that the child arrived at the campground.
There is an important difference between that, and finding positive evidence confirming definitely that the child never arrived at the campground.
Is there any positive evidence, that he definitely never arrived? For example did the person who pumped diesel in Leadore say definitely 100% there was no child in the truck? Or did he say that he was not certain?

Investigators have no evidence to indicate DeOrr was there. Of course, they also have no irrefutable concrete evidence to indicate he wasn't there, either. However, the former should be much easier to prove - children are very noticeable and leave traces of their presence pretty much everywhere they go. The fact that there is not one reliable sighting of DeOrr at the campsite or in Leadore is very telling. No one seems to have seen him. You can attribute that to poor memories or distractions or whatever, but how could every single person they came in contact with not remember with any certainty seeing that adorable little boy?

 

[koios]

Investigators have no evidence to indicate DeOrr was there. Of course, they also have no irrefutable concrete evidence to indicate he wasn't there, either. However, the former should be much easier to prove - children are very noticeable and leave traces of their presence pretty much everywhere they go. The fact that there is not one reliable sighting of DeOrr at the campsite or in Leadore is very telling. No one seems to have seen him. You can attribute that to poor memories or distractions or whatever, but how could every single person they came in contact with not remember with any certainty seeing that adorable little boy?

From the time of arrival until the time of disappearance there were no other people at, or passing through, or looking at, the lower campground. So if one dismisses as unreliable the statements of the only 4 adults who were there, one inevitably gets "there is not one reliable sighting of DeOrr at the campsite".
To try to find definite evidence that the child was never at the campground, a good place to look is the trip to Leadore that morning.
Did the person working in the Stage Shop say something like "the child was definitely not with them, and I certainly would remember if he was" or did she say something like "I don't remember seeing a child with them but it was busy and I'm not certain I'd remember"? Does anyone have the exact words?
And at the diesel pump that morning (a few buildings along from the Stage Shop), did the person who pumped the diesel say "I guarantee there was no child in that truck" or did he say "I don't remember seeing a child in that truck but there might have been a child in it"? Again the exact words would be useful if anyone has them?

 

[LietKynes]

Good to see we are still discussing little DeOrr !

My .02 is that he very well could be BURIED elsewhere. I don't think he's alive and hidden with someone else.

Still not sure if IR lied... or was "shown' a carseat with a bundle of blankets wadded up inside it , and was told DeOrr Jr. was just napping.
And if so---what adult will go and inspect the blankets to see if there's really a toddler in it ?

The hardest part about that is anyone who has had toddlers or cared for them will know that those little humans will make a noisy commotion--happy or otherwise.
To my knowledge, IR has not SAID what DK Jr. was actually doing (running, walking with his parents,fussing, etc.).Only that he saw him.

That's easy to say.

Who saw him last outside of family and relatives ?
I don't think he ever made it to the campsite. Imo.

 

[koios]

Isn't it possible, that during the time he was not being watched, he might have just wandered off a distance got lost and sat down somewhere?

 

[desert-blue]

From the time of arrival until the time of disappearance there were no other people at, or passing through, or looking at, the lower campground. So if one dismisses as unreliable the statements of the only 4 adults who were there, one inevitably gets "there is not one reliable sighting of DeOrr at the campsite".
To try to find definite evidence that the child was never at the campground, a good place to look is the trip to Leadore that morning.
Did the person working in the Stage Shop say something like "the child was definitely not with them, and I certainly would remember if he was" or did she say something like "I don't remember seeing a child with them but it was busy and I'm not certain I'd remember"? Does anyone have the exact words?
And at the diesel pump that morning (a few buildings along from the Stage Shop), did the person who pumped the diesel say "I guarantee there was no child in that truck" or did he say "I don't remember seeing a child in that truck but there might have been a child in it"? Again the exact words would be useful if anyone has them?

Apparently they made two separate purchases at the Stage Stop, plus going in and asking where to buy diesel. On Thursday, they also purchased fuel (not sure where - somewhere between Idaho Falls and Leadore, I assume) and later stopped at the Silver Dollar in the evening (before dark). In addition, it's been said that they purchased three cell phone chargers between Idaho Falls and Leadore. I would think that someone at one of these many stops would be able to definitely say that they saw baby DeOrr, either in the truck or in one of the businesses. However, It seems that is not the case.

 

[koios]

I don't think that's possible.


Here is a quote from Bowerman about the search efforts the day DeOrr went missing:

"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him," said Bowerman.

source: http://www.localnews8.com/news/kifi...of-missing-toddler_20160825060019981/58268876

He might have been in the area and visible in the infra-red at the time he was noticed missing, but then not there in the evening when the infra-red helicopter arrived.

 

[desert-blue]

Isn't it possible, that during the time he was not being watched, he might have just wandered off a distance got lost and sat down somewhere?

He would have been detected with the heat-sensing/infrared equipment used by the helicopters the first evening.

 

[desert-blue]

He might have been in the area and visible in the infra-red at the time he was noticed missing, but then not there in the evening when the infra-red helicopter arrived.

Where did he go in the evening?

 

[koios]

Apparently they made two separate purchases at the Stage Stop, plus going in and asking where to buy diesel. On Thursday, they also purchased fuel (not sure where - somewhere between Idaho Falls and Leadore, I assume) and later stopped at the Silver Dollar in the evening (before dark). In addition, it's been said that they purchased three cell phone chargers between Idaho Falls and Leadore. I would think that someone at one of these many stops would be able to definitely say that they saw baby DeOrr, either in the truck or in one of the businesses. However, It seems that is not the case.

I'm wondering whether or not there is any statement which says he 100% definite wasn't there, by someone who is certain they definitely would have seen him if he was there.
I wish we had direct quotes of the server at the Stage Shop, and of the server at at the diesel station.

 

[koios]

Where did he go in the evening?

Not really an answer, just brain-storming.
Seems to me that if a child goes missing while unwatched, in a rural area with lots of long grass etc, a possibility is that he has wandered and got lost and sat down.
If that is what happened, hypothetically, then negative FLIR results many hours later would imply relocation during the intervening time.