ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[los2188]

Deorr Kunz Jr.

Missing two year old in Lemhi County

Search crews are looking for a missing two year old boy who was camping with his family in the Leadore area.

Family members say Deorr Kunz Jr. was camping yesterday afternoon at the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir when he was reported missing.

He was last seen wearing a camo jacket, blue sweatpants and camo cowboy boots.

There is no official word from yet from The Lemhi County Sheriff's Office or Salmon Search & Rescue of organized searches for the weekend. We'll update search information as it's released.

http://m.localnews8.com/news/Missing-two-year-old-in-Lemhi-County/34110688
--------------------------------------

ADMIN NOTE: Any further speculation about the parents WILL result in a Time Out.

Chief deputy on missing boy's family: 'They're solid
KTVB, KTVB.COM 2:14 p.m. MDT July 16, 2015

[...]
"We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

Thread #1
Thread #2

 

[ClaireNC]

Seems like it's a good time to post an update:

Here are some links for those just joining the thread.

DeOrr Kunz media links:
-Article first interview with Grandma: Grandma of missing 2-year-old: “He Just Vanished” Updated at 6:40 pm, July 12th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/

-Full unedited interview with parents from July 13: UNEDITED INTERVIEW: Parents of Missing Idaho Toddler Speak Out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358

-Short version of interview with parents from July 13: Heartbroken Parents of Missing 2-year-old: “We’ll find you son. Updated at 2:51 pm, July 13th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/heartbroken-parents-of-missing-2-year-old-well-find-you-son/

-911 call from mom, full version: Mother’s 911 phone call released — “My 2-year-old son, we can’t find him…” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/mothers-911-phone-call-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

-Article and video of Campground, July 15: A closer look: the campground where Deorr Kunz disappeared Updated at 5:56 pm, July 15th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

-Update article July 19, Timeline: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/deorr-kunz-disappearance-a-timeline-of-events/

-Video of Nancy Grace show. Deorr Kunz search featured on Nancy Grace http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/deorr-kunz-search-featured-on-nancy-grace/

-Transcript of Nancy Grace show from July 15: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html

-HLN article, sonar brought in, interview with grandpa Kunz, cremain dumping 7/17: Family fears missing 2-year-old was abducted http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted


-PEOPLE article: “Mom of Toddler Who Vanished While Camping Won't Put Down His Baby Blanket, Boy's Grandfather Tells PEOPLE” http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

-KMVT update July 17: “The search for a missing toddler continues in remote Eastern Idaho” http://www.kmvt.com/content/news/The-search-for-a-missing-toddler-countinues-in-remote-Eastern-Idaho-316310011.html

-Daily Mail article: “Search continues for toddler who vanished from Idaho campsite last week as police reveal chance he was abducted is 'remote'” Read more: [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3165519/Police-continue-search-toddler-disappeared-Idaho-campsite.html#ixzz3gGbYYn00
[/URL]

-KTVB article and video, day 5 of search, interview with aunt - 4 minute video: “Search for missing boy leads back to reservoir” http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/15/missing-boy-deorr-search-dogs/30209081/

-KTVB 7/17 update video: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-deorr-lemhi-no-trace/30262877/

-KTVB 7/17 p.m. update sonar robot being used: “Sonar robot being used in search for missing East Idaho toddler” http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/sonar-robot-being-used-in-search-for-missing-east-idaho-toddler/30319703/


-KTVB video interview with grandfather: Missing toddler's grandfather believes boy was abducted http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/missing-toddlers-grandfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/

-KTVB video: Former sheriff offers perspective on Lemhi County search http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-challenges-sheriff/30259235/

-July 21 update from KTVB. Drone being brought in: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/21/lemhi-county-sheriffs-office-calling-in-air-support/30466883/

-July 20 update about wolf den, cremated remains, more. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/20/searches-reservoir-wolf-den-yield-no-clues-in-hunt-for-idaho-toddler/

-July 21 update, new details. http://www.localnews8.com/news/new-details-on-search-for-deorr-kunz-jr/34281340


Sheriff's Office:
Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office Facebook page. Press releases: https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice?fref=nf

Sheriff’s report to Commissioners: http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap


Maps of the area:
BYO’s maps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11934108#post11934108

Google map with relevant locations: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?usp=sharing&mid=zW6CBVbxpdYA.klXz-SrbHNBI

Bing Map from this post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11934743#post11934743

https://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?encType=1&where1=44.58087%2c%20-113.46596&cp=44.5808715820313~-113.465957641602&qpvt=44.58087%2c+-113.46596&FORM=MIRE#Y3A9cmR4MmRyNWpiNDV5Jmx2bD0xNSZzdHk9YiZxPTQ0LjU4MDg3JTJDJTIwLTExMy40NjU5Ng==

Snoopster's maps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11936318#post11936318

Here is a slightly "tilted" view of the camp area to give a sense of terrain. We think their campsite is where the truck and camper is parked in this view: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Ti...m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

Here's an even more tilted, longer range view https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Ti...m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

Other:
Help Find DeOrr Kunz Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/FindDeorrKunz?fref=ts

Please let me know if I missed any important links.

 

[steelman]

I made up a map to show you guys one thing, and one thing only.

Distance.

You will see that most of the wooded areas he was most likely to have wandered off into are not that spread out, in geographical terms. Granted these are straight line measurements, so they will be a little shorter in length than the actual walking/driving distance. Also the uphill/downhill directions aren't factored in. The length of each line is shown.

As you can see though, just about every distance on here is two miles or less. This will help to give scale to the camping area they were in and the size of it.

To view, zoom in with the center wheel of your mouse.....click on the table of contents to the left side to highlight the individual distances on the map. All distances are from the Timber Creek campsite, except for the actual reservoir dimensions.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zAAmDUXJe_aE.kOuWmypLbFis&usp=sharing


How long does it take you to walk a mile ? Two miles ?

 

[ClaireNC]

Thanks Steelman, Your map is very helpful in putting distance into perspective. FWIW, I believe they were camping a bit north of what you used as the central point. If you zoom in on the map, there is a truck with a white camper to the left of the road. I think that is the actual campsite part of the campground.

I really wish we had more pictures of the campground itself.

 

[takeitfromme412]

just marking the thread for my list. hope he is found soon!

 

[Jules71]

Just thinking out loud here...

We have not read anything in msm about:

Where friend was when parents went to explore
If friend drove separate vehicle

The only thing we have heard is:

it was great grandfather's friend and he was not known by DeOrr's mom & dad

Is that right? I believe we are allowed to discuss rumors read on social media as long as we state it as a rumor and we paraphrase rather than copy and paste. Is that correct?


Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[JDauxa]

From what I researched, the average weight person (current statistics show 178lbs in North America) would take 2-2 1/2 hours to be reduced to bone fragments at 1400-1800 degrees, (I used the median 1600 degrees for calculation purposes). Now math is not my strong suit but if we take the average body weigh of a toddler, 30lbs, the time needed reduces to approx 25 minutes. Now taking into consideration that the campfire temperature was not 1400-1800 degrees, estimating it was around more around 900 degrees, it would take approx 84 minutes or approx 1-1/2 hours. Now while there are several differences between a campfire burning and cremation process, I think it would be very possible for a 30 lb human to be unrecognizable in under 2 hours. Not saying that it is likely but it's not as crazy of a possibility, especially given the options at this point.
Some references
http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation


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[Hatfield]

Just want to also help answer a question that JDAUXA had.

Warning. A graphic topic.
This is tough to think about so sorry to even talk so morbidly but I think it was asked fairly since they really did not know if it was possible.

They asked about whether if the boy had fallen in the campfire then could it have burned up the boy so much that nobody would realize it?

In such a short time span that we have been given, the answer is NO.
Because someone would have easily been able to see that he was in there if it was an accident. Because a regular campfire would not totally incinerate everything without someone purposely stirring and moving contents around for a long time.

Now could the boy have fallen in by accident and gotten killed?
YES, absolutely. But that would mean that someone then removed the boy and left the area.

In order for a campfire to totally incinerate a body, it would have to be tended and it would take a very long time and a very large hot fire.

As others have already mentioned, even a cremation oven takes over 2 hours to totally and completely turn things into ashes and those are way hotter than a typical campfire.

Using a fire to get rid of a body has been done before by perps but it takes a lot of time and takes a large hot fire.

MY EXPERIMENT:
About a year ago I actually did an experiment in my backyard because I was burning a huge brush pile at the time and I had found a dead possum that a coyote had killed nearby and needed to get rid of it anyway.

I happened to be burning brush at the time and had this huge brush pile fire going. It was about 15 feet diameter fire going. Flames about shooting about 10 feet high at times.

I threw the dead possum into the huge fire and made sure it was in the hottest parts but close enough to the edge where i could stir the embers with a long rake pole. It took about 2 hours and sure enough I was surprised at how it basically was reduced to ashes. Bones and all were gone but it did take about 2 hours. I was also shifting embers and making sure the fire stayed hot in the area.

This was just a very small dead possum too. When thinking of a perp trying to do that with a large human body, then much more time would be needed. Most likely about 8-10 hours of constant burning and shifting of a very large and hot fire at least. And even then I think some bones and fragments from the skull would be very difficult to get rid of.

So the moral of my experiment is its possible to get rid of MOST of a body in a very large hot fire but it would take lots of work and lots of time and you would definitely need an extremely large hot fire.

Hope this helps understand what it would take for a random perp to use a fire to try to get rid of someone. There are known cases where perps have done this. We usually hear about an overnight burning they did in their backyard fire pit or something along those lines.

 

[4senthia]

My apologies in advance for those who are asking me information on this thread. Unfortunately, since my return I have been giving a time out for mentioning something about body language and now a few of my posts have been edited. We will have to agree to disagree, but asking people to email a News agency to give them suggestions to help solve this very important case and find out what happened with our precious little boy is not "email campaigning", I thought WS would be excited about a News Director communicating in such important case. I say this as a former Journalist myself. Having said that, I respect the mods so I will try my best to do what they expect me to do but little information from me will be shared. Thanks guys.

Me too.
IMO, however, there is nothing expected from us.
And I am very sorry for that.
It is what it is.
Thanks for doing your very best and hope you enjoy your wonderful days and nights.
Except and unless I can post an actual link, I am out of here.
Read only.
Time will tell....
jmo
and buck up soldier

 

[Mountaingazer]

Random question, but does anyone know what time LE responded to the scene? Did they come from the same direction as the store, or another way?

 

[steelman]

I don't understand all the hooplah about the ggf friend. He/she was there at the campsite when Deorr went missing, I get that. Is the assumption that somehow this person abducted and hid Deorr while the parents were on a walk and great grandpa was busy getting gear unloaded ? If that is even remotely possible, then how does one abduct, silence, bury(?), and cover up the crime scene to the point that 200 searchers find no evidence of any kind ?

Oh, and you do it all in about 10 minutes with a living witness just a few feet away.........yeah.........okay.

 

[nervous_nellie]

I would think that if there were some incident with the camp fire that the cadaver dogs would have hit on that --- where is sarx?

 

[Sutton]

Me too.
IMO, however, there is nothing expected from us.
And I am very sorry for that.
It is what it is.
Thanks for doing your very best and hope you enjoy your wonderful days and nights.
Except and unless I can post an actual link, I am out of here.
Read only.
Time will tell....
jmo
and buck up soldier

I posted this at the tail-end of thread two (few small changes to clear confusion):

4senthia, please don't stop. Please. I cannot bear to be here amongst mostly speculation of an accidental and unknown (by any party at the campsite) cremation, or of Deorr being abducted and now being disguised as a girl.

Posters have the right to these opinions and ideas. But let's get real. He didn't hitchhike out. He's not cross dressing. He didn't get instantly incinerated.

1. He fell in the water.
2. He died accidentally, naturally or on purpose and it is being covered up by someone close to Deorr.
3. A wild animal got him. (unlikely)

That's it. Those are the real possibilities. IMO. 4senthia, don't stop helping us know where to look for info. Code it, shadow it, allude to it, whatever you can do within TOS.

 

[MsMarple]

Just want to also help answer a question that JDAUXA had.

Warning. A graphic topic.
This is tough to think about so sorry to even talk so morbidly but I think it was asked fairly since they really did not know if it was possible.

They asked about whether if the boy had fallen in the campfire then could it have burned up the boy so much that nobody would realize it?

In such a short time span that we have been given, the answer is NO.
Because someone would have easily been able to see that he was in there if it was an accident. Because a regular campfire would not totally incinerate everything without someone purposely stirring and moving contents around for a long time.

Now could the boy have fallen in by accident and gotten killed?
YES, absolutely. But that would mean that someone then removed the boy and left the area.

In order for a campfire to totally incinerate a body, it would have to be tended and it would take a very long time and a very large hot fire.

As others have already mentioned, even a cremation oven takes over 2 hours to totally and completely turn things into ashes and those are way hotter than a typical campfire.

Using a fire to get rid of a body has been done before by perps but it takes a lot of time and takes a large hot fire.

MY EXPERIMENT:
About a year ago I actually did an experiment in my backyard because I was burning a huge brush pile at the time and I had found a dead possum that a coyote had killed nearby and needed to get rid of it anyway.

I happened to be burning brush at the time and had this huge brush pile fire going. It was about 15 feet diameter fire going. Flames about shooting about 10 feet high at times.

I threw the dead possum into the huge fire and made sure it was in the hottest parts but close enough to the edge where i could stir the embers with a long rake pole. It took about 2 hours and sure enough I was surprised at how it basically was reduced to ashes. Bones and all were gone but it did take about 2 hours. I was also shifting embers and making sure the fire stayed hot in the area.

This was just a very small dead possum too. When thinking of a perp trying to do that with a large human body, then much more time would be needed. Most likely about 8-10 hours of constant burning and shifting of a very large and hot fire at least. And even then I think some bones and fragments from the skull would be very difficult to get rid of.

So the moral of my experiment is its possible to get rid of MOST of a body in a very large hot fire but it would take lots of work and lots of time and you would definitely need an extremely large hot fire.

Hope this helps understand what it would take for a random perp to use a fire to try to get rid of someone. There are known cases where perps have done this. We usually hear about an overnight burning they did in their backyard fire pit or something along those lines.

Plus, I would think the HRD's (cadaver dogs) would have "hit" on the fire pit just as they did on the cremains in the reservoir.

Oh, and thanks for sharing your experiment - it was very interesting!

 

[nervous_nellie]

how long ago were the cremains scattered?

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

I don't understand all the hooplah about the ggf friend. He/she was there at the campsite when Deorr went missing, I get that. Is the assumption that somehow this person abducted and hid Deorr while the parents were on a walk and great grandpa was busy getting gear unloaded ? If that is even remotely possible, then how does one abduct, silence, bury(?), and cover up the crime scene to the point that 200 searchers find no evidence of any kind ?

Oh, and you do it all in about 10 minutes with a living witness just a few feet away.........yeah.........okay.

Personally I don't think that was the point. In every missing case here people are interested in the last person who may have seen the missing. If friend was with ggp he may have seen something. Jmo

 

[shellbythesea]

This is exhausting :scared:

 

[Donjeta]

I doubt anyone had time to tend to the fire much after Deorr was found missing so any accidental complete cremation doesn't sound plausible to me. There'd be something visible left and the dogs would have thought it smells interesting.

 

[sunflowerchick]

I don't understand all the hooplah about the ggf friend. He/she was there at the campsite when Deorr went missing, I get that. Is the assumption that somehow this person abducted and hid Deorr while the parents were on a walk and great grandpa was busy getting gear unloaded ? If that is even remotely possible, then how does one abduct, silence, bury(?), and cover up the crime scene to the point that 200 searchers find no evidence of any kind ?

Oh, and you do it all in about 10 minutes with a living witness just a few feet away.........yeah.........okay.

I'm definitely with you on this and thought it was worth re-posting.

Also LE would not have spent the man hours and resources, which I'm sure were not cheap, if they believed that a crime had occurred.

Frankly I am really tired of it. We have been asked not to speculate about the parents. We have been asked not to sleuth those who haven't been named in the media. Even LE said the social media rumors need to stop. On other cases, people are so quick to say, "LE said it. That's good enough for me!" In this case though, the speculation and rumors continue.

I think little DeOrr wandered off and something tragic happened. I think, sadly, that his little body will be found somewhere close by, that was overlooked by searchers. It isn't that hard to fathom. When Elizabeth Smart disappeared, searchers were so close, she could hear them yelling, yet they didn't find her. Occam's razor, the easiest explanation. No need trying to inject nefarious motives and things that aren't there.

I will continue to think this way until LE indicates otherwise.

 

[Mickshawn]

...and did we ever learn whose cremains they were and who scattered them??

how long ago were the cremains scattered?