ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

[Tortoise]

Interesting!

I wonder if he's been retained as State's expert for both of them, not just Lori.

Two birds with one stone so to speak, just in case either of them try to use religious belief or mental health as mitigation at sentencing.

 

[Tortoise]

According to the defense motions Lori will claim that she was in her apartment with MG, DW and/or Chad when Tylee and JJ died in Alex's.

It is unclear who she was with when Tylee died (nobody apart from Alex that we know of so far), on which of the two occasions she was with Chad (none that we know of so far) and whether MG and DW were with her the entire evening and night when JJ died (not very likely).

I find the defense response to be really quite childish, repeating the same information, when the State's already said it doesn't satisfy the requirements of an alibi because it lumps all the witnesses together for two different dates and doesn't specify what times the children died.

By the sounds of it she still doesn't give two hoots about the deaths of her children, like this is all a reason to smile and twiddle her hair. She is more cunning than any I have seen, and I am certain this air of amusement is all an act. JMO

 

[Ruminations]

According to the defense motions Lori will claim that she was in her apartment with MG, DW and/or Chad when Tylee and JJ died in Alex's.

It is unclear who she was with when Tylee died (nobody apart from Alex that we know of so far), on which of the two occasions she was with Chad (none that we know of so far) and whether MG and DW were with her the entire evening and night when JJ died (not very likely).

The alibi filing and naming witnesses as MG, DW, and/or Chad is intriguing.

First of all, we all want to know what Lori is going to say about when she learned the children "died." And what she is going to say she learned about the deaths. (Pulmonary Embolisms, perhaps?)

Second of all is the and/or Chad bit. MG and DW deny seeing Chad on the Sunday night/early Monday morning when JJ was apparently murdered, but they were in Lori's apartment and gave unbelievable statements about nightmares, "forgetting" the situation surrounding Lori's text bout getting JJ back to sleep while it was kinda early for going to sleep again, and they were presumably together, claiming recalling concern about JJ's whereabouts in the morning when it was school hour, yet also claiming not to recall the several phone conversations the SAME DAY. If MG and DW are Lori's alibi, they are hardly air tight.

As far as I know, MG and DW were not in Rexberg when Tylee "died." So that leaves Chad as Lori's witness. Now if they are both going to alibi each other and blame Tylee's death on Alex... that could work if they are able to be consistent with one another. And it is even possible that the physical locations are true, even if conspiracy could certainly still apply. But...it will be fascinating if the stories are not the same.

Lori: "Chad was with me" Chad: "Lori stole my cell phone; I was 'working' on Viola at home- er- praying my sweet wife would see a doctor."

Am I wrong that the alibi filing basically says that Chad is Lori's alibi witness for Tylee's murder?

MOO

 

[Love Never Fails]

The alibi filing and naming witnesses as MG, DW, and/or Chad is intriguing.

First of all, we all want to know what Lori is going to say about when she learned the children "died." And what she is going to say she learned about the deaths. (Pulmonary Embolisms, perhaps?)

Second of all is the and/or Chad bit. MG and DW deny seeing Chad on the Sunday night/early Monday morning when JJ was apparently murdered, but they were in Lori's apartment and gave unbelievable statements about nightmares, "forgetting" the situation surrounding Lori's text bout getting JJ back to sleep while it was kinda early for going to sleep again, and they were presumably together, claiming recalling concern about JJ's whereabouts in the morning when it was school hour, yet also claiming not to recall the several phone conversations the SAME DAY. If MG and DW are Lori's alibi, they are hardly air tight.

As far as I know, MG and DW were not in Rexberg when Tylee "died." So that leaves Chad as Lori's witness. Now if they are both going to alibi each other and blame Tylee's death on Alex... that could work if they are able to be consistent with one another. And it is even possible that the physical locations are true, even if conspiracy could certainly still apply. But...it will be fascinating if the stories are not the same.

Lori: "Chad was with me" Chad: "Lori stole my cell phone; I was 'working' on Viola at home- er- praying my sweet wife would see a doctor."

Am I wrong that the alibi filing basically says that Chad is Lori's alibi witness for Tylee's murder?

MOO

Can’t see anyone believing MG or DW had nightmares. More like they heard the planning and or execution of JJ or were observers and the State can’t prove that so they are going with “nightmares”. This trial should be so cut and dried with both Chad and Lori hanging from a rope.

 

[mrjitty]

I find the defense response to be really quite childish, repeating the same information, when the State's already said it doesn't satisfy the requirements of an alibi because it lumps all the witnesses together for two different dates and doesn't specify what times the children died.

By the sounds of it she still doesn't give two hoots about the deaths of her children, like this is all a reason to smile and twiddle her hair. She is more cunning than any I have seen, and I am certain this air of amusement is all an act. JMO

Right.

The 'whoops where's my kids' angle can't fly because she 'lost' them on 2 different dates, and she never raised the alarm about either.

I always wondered if their deal would be that she tries to eat the murders with Alex who is conveniently dead.

But she doesn't seem to be doing that which makes no sense to me.

 

[Ruminations]

Holy Moly- I was kinda sorta watching the "stolen purse report" interview while I was working around the house. Dum-Dee-dum-Dee-dum....I went about my day and suddenly realized:

Tylee said Charles sent her a text a link of a news story about their church. (She said this adding to Lori's claims of behaviors in Charles to discredit him.) Lori added that it was about crazy people at their church.

Was this something everyone except me noticed a few years ago? Because I just did today, hours after watching that video, and now I need to refund the video and see if there was information about that church story- and just what was going on? Was Charles appealing to Tylee to see what group her mother had gotten in with?

MOO

 

[altojack]

Can’t see anyone believing MG or DW had nightmares. More like they heard the planning and or execution of JJ or were observers and the State can’t prove that so they are going with “nightmares”. This trial should be so cut and dried with both Chad and Lori hanging from a rope.

I'm sticking to my thoughts from way back when DW woke and said he heard noises, was this what was thought to be a nightmare? The noise he heard IMO was the tape being pulled from a roll and plastic bags crinkling While Lori wrapped JJ IN plastic bags.

When MG went to Loris bedroom, door locked. Of course it would be locked, she, L had to make sure that she wasn't found out. Can you imagine if MG could walk right in and there on the floor was a black plastic small boy sized parcel.

All just my own thoughts and opinion.

 

[Ruminations]

DW and MG are guilty of not stepping up that day and calling police. They knew something was off. They had to know and did nothing. I’m betting the truth is, they didn’t even question Lori. She was their goddess after all. There should be some charge for aiding and abetting a crime.

Right. I'm not saying I have any reason to think Melanie and/or David are guilty of any crimes.

Whoops- they are- perjury. But besides that.

I can't help but think that Melanie was very careful to place herself specifically in the down stairs bathroom, in Lori's bedroom, and all over Lori's doorknob. It is entirely my opinion/imagination triggered by her behavior in the police interviews. She usually answered every question with what a person woukd ordinarily do or say, then proceed to claim no specific memory.

The first part is what you do when you are composing a lie or evaluating whether the truth would be best told or not. The second part is what you do when you don't want to give a provable lie, so you stick with your own memory, which can't be disputed- even if disbelieved. The bathroom and bedroom stories she related first, and retrospectively evaluated the stories for usualness. Since it was different, it stood out to me.

Even if I am right it is not possible to prove. But I am pretty sure I'm right that it is pure BS that David and Melanie remember stupid details from Monday morning, but don't remember anything important like if Melanie saw JJ carried in, why Lori texted at 8:00ish, or what three phone conversations on Melanie's ride to David's house were about. WTF- David claims he didn't believe the cabinet climb story. But it didn't strike him to insist that question get asked as a part of three conversations?

It's not surprising that Melanie didn't behave normally. Who would make friends with these people? Melanie I'm sure was very vulnerable. It's even plausible that lying her face off is the best she can do with whatever she's got.

At least she is a witness.

May she recognize her part in this in a genuine way some day. She wishes she could share her wisdom she's gained. Well, if she still thinks this story is about her growth as a person- howsoever stunted- she is obviously not wise yet.

MOO

 

[Love Never Fails]

Right. I'm not saying I have any reason to think Melanie and/or David are guilty of any crimes.

Whoops- they are- perjury. But besides that.

I can't help but think that Melanie was very careful to place herself specifically in the down stairs bathroom, in Lori's bedroom, and all over Lori's doorknob. It is entirely my opinion/imagination triggered by her behavior in the police interviews. She usually answered every question with what a person woukd ordinarily do or say, then proceed to claim no specific memory.

The first part is what you do when you are composing a lie or evaluating whether the truth would be best told or not. The second part is what you do when you don't want to give a provable lie, so you stick with your own memory, which can't be disputed- even if disbelieved. The bathroom and bedroom stories she related first, and retrospectively evaluated the stories for usualness. Since it was different, it stood out to me.

Even if I am right it is not possible to prove. But I am pretty sure I'm right that it is pure BS that David and Melanie remember stupid details from Monday morning, but don't remember anything important like if Melanie saw JJ carried in, why Lori texted at 8:00ish, or what three phone conversations on Melanie's ride to David's house were about. WTF- David claims he didn't believe the cabinet climb story. But it didn't strike him to insist that question get asked as a part of three conversations?

It's not surprising that Melanie didn't behave normally. Who would make friends with these people? Melanie I'm sure was very vulnerable. It's even plausible that lying her face off is the best she can do with whatever she's got.

At least she is a witness.

May she recognize her part in this in a genuine way some day. She wishes she could share her wisdom she's gained. Well, if she still thinks this story is about her growth as a person- howsoever stunted- she is obviously not wise yet.

MOO

As long as M and D aren’t willing to tell the whole truth, I believe they will be bad witnesses. Or maybe a better way to say it is I think the defense will destroy them. John Prior made a few points in her early testimony. The defense can’t go too far with M and D but I wish they would just come clean. Maybe there will be some surprises at trial, in favor of the prosecution. These people are sickening. They had to know everything. I don’t believe anything they say. Zulema and MP are awful as well and guilty of conspiracy, yet not even charged!

 

[Ruminations]

As long as M and D aren’t willing to tell the whole truth, I believe they will be bad witnesses. Or maybe a better way to say it is I think the defense will destroy them. John Prior made a few points in her early testimony. The defense can’t go too far with M and D but I wish they would just come clean. Maybe there will be some surprises at trial, in favor of the prosecution. These people are sickening. They had to know everything. I don’t believe anything they say. Zulema and MP are awful as well and guilty of conspiracy, yet not even charged!

Yeah- I don't disagree. But you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as they say. Those two are not wrapped up too tight- and are very narcissistic. (in the informal conversational sense--Im not dx over the internet, even if it's safe for me- no license to dx to lose here!)

They are certainly going to be butchered on cross examination. And they have only themselves to blame- they shouldn't lie.

But people who are concerned with different things than these witnesses- like human life, for example- are not the kind of people who would be up close and personal with the defendants. How long would it take for you to block contact from Lori? Would you do that before or after you realized she's leaving a trail of bodies? Healthy people don't hang with "hee-hee I guess I should just drive off a cliff with the kids," all that long.

Lori was good at pretending to to be a caring human being, and people who knew her long term then saw the mask slip either stepped back, like April, or Annie C, or 4 of her husbands- or sounded the alarm without being well received.

The ones who stuck around to be knowledgeable witnesses are unsurprisingly flawed people.

I contrast the witnesses to Shari D who admired Melanie's book and found her self listening to murder-adjacent stories and a shocking absence of feeling for victims (except Alex, "bless his heart"). Sheri did not respond by making plans to meet Melanie in the Midwest for girls weekend. But that would seem like normal behavior for these witnesses.

It is not really realistic that a person with the wherewithal to do more than lie about sleeping arrangements when a kid is dead would even exist as a witness.

As for Zulema? I don't even want to talk about it. She actually asserted she had no fear for herself, as if anyone gives a hoot if a grown woman is afraid when the entire nation was afraid for Tylee and JJ. SMH.

The self absorption is unreal.

But those are the people who were close enough to Chad and Lori to know things.

MOO.

 

[Niner]

I will shorten everything up a bit...

Thursday, February 9th:
*Review Hearing (@ 10am MT) – ID – Joshua Jaxon (JJ) Vallow (7) & Tylee Ashlyn Ryan (16) (JJ last seen Sept. 23, 2019 & Tylee on Sept. 9, 2019, Rexburg; found June 9, 2020 buried in Daybell’s yard in Salem, ID) – for *Lori Norene Vallow aka Lori Norene Daybell (46/now 49) arrested (in Kauai, Hawaii on 2/20/20) & indicted & charged (5/25/21) & re-arraigned (4/19/22) with Count 1 (for Tylee): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception (for Daybell, Vallow & Alex Cox) & other co-conspirators. Count 2 (for Tylee): 1st degree murder. Count 3 (for JJ): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception. Count 4(for JJ): 1st degree murder. Count 5 (for Tammy): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder. Count 6 (for Tammy): Chad only: 1st Degree murder. Count 7: Lori only: Grand theft (related to social security survivor benefits allocated for the care of minors Tylee & JJ). Plead not guilty. DA will seek DP.
Conspiracy to commit destruction, alteration or concealment of evidence charges dismissed without prejudice on 7/29/21. Fremont County
Resisting or obstructing LE, solicitation of a crime & contempt of court. All charges were dismissed on 1/3/22. Madison County
Trial set to begin on 4/3/23 thru 6/9/23 @ 9am. Trial will be held in Ada County.
Arrest & Grand Jury & Competency Court info from 3/5/20 thru 1/26/23 reference post #253 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bell-charles-vallow-arrests-67.655419/page-13
1/27/23: State's response to Defendant's Supplemental Discovery request (Defense has all discovery). 1/30/23: Defendant's response to request for Discovery & demand for Notice of Intent to reply on defense of alibi. 1/30/23 Update: Review hearing set for 1/31/23. 1/31/23 Update: Purpose of the hearing was to review the juror questionnaires. Next motions hearing on 2/9/23. 2/2/23: State's response to Defendant's Motion for pre-selection instructions. State's response to Defendant's request for individual voir dire. Defendant's Objection to State's Motion re mental health evidence.
*AZ – Indicted (6/24/21) & served (6/29/21) with conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder in the death of former husband Charles Vallow (62).
At the time, Chandler Police officials said Vallow was at the home to pick up his son & later engaged in an argument with his wife, Lori Vallow. Vallow's brother-in-law, Alex Cox, was also in the home. Investigators said Cox intervened on his sister's behalf. Vallow & the brother-in-law were later involved in a physical fight & Vallow was shot by Cox. On Sept. 30, 2021 Vallow's autopsy report was released. The Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office stated the cause of death was multiple gunshot wounds & the manner of death is homicide. In the medical examiner's report, the evidence of injury details more gunshot wounds to Vallow's chest, bruises on the right side of his chest, abrasions on the left arm & right hand, as well as on the knees. The toxicology report showed no positive findings of drugs in Vallow's system. A Maricopa County Attorney’s Office spokeswoman said in June, 2021 that Lori’s case in Idaho will run its course before she faces the charge in Arizona. Maricopa County

ALSO:
*Motions Hearing (@ 9am MT) – ID – Joshua Jaxon (JJ) Vallow (7) & Tylee Ashlyn Ryan (16) (JJ last seen Sept. 23, 2019 & Tylee on Sept. 9, 2019, Rexburg; found June 9, 2020 buried in Daybell’s yard in Salem, ID) & Tamara “Tammy” Michelle Douglas Daybell (49) (died on Oct. 19, 2019 at her residence in Salem, ID; dob 5/4/70). – for *Chad Guy Daybell (53/now 54) arrested (6/9/20) & indicted (5/25/21) & charged (5/26/21) & arraigned (6/9/21) with Count 1 (for Tylee): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception (for Daybell, Vallow & Alex Cox) & other co-conspirators. Count 2 (for Tylee): 1st degree murder. Count 3 (for JJ): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception. Count 4 (for JJ): 1st degree murder. Count 5 (for Tammy, 49, died 10/19/19): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder. Count 6 (for Tammy): 1st degree murder. Count 8 & 9: Insurance Fraud (Two counts of insurance fraud related to 2 different life insurance policies he had on Tammy). Plead not guilty. No bond. DA will seek DP.
Trial set to begin on 4/3/23 thru 6/9/23 @ 9am. Trial will be held in Ada County. (will last 10 weeks)
Previous charges, Grand jury indictment & Court info from 6/10/20 thru 1/25/23 reference post #253 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bell-charles-vallow-arrests-67.655419/page-13
1/30/23 Update: Review hearing set for 1/31/23. 1/31/23 Update: Purpose of the hearing was to review the juror questionnaires. Next motions hearing on 2/9/23. 2/1/23: Defense's Objection to IRE 404(b). Objects to the introduction of all requested evidence by the State pursuant to IRE 404(b). The request by the State is not timely. The court must first conduct an evidentiary hearing as it relates to such evidence.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Yeah- I don't disagree. But you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as they say. Those two are not wrapped up too tight- and are very narcissistic. (in the informal conversational sense--Im not dx over the internet, even if it's safe for me- no license to dx to lose here!)

They are certainly going to be butchered on cross examination. And they have only themselves to blame- they shouldn't lie.

But people who are concerned with different things than these witnesses- like human life, for example- are not the kind of people who would be up close and personal with the defendants. How long would it take for you to block contact from Lori? Would you do that before or after you realized she's leaving a trail of bodies? Healthy people don't hang with "hee-hee I guess I should just drive off a cliff with the kids," all that long.

Lori was good at pretending to to be a caring human being, and people who knew her long term then saw the mask slip either stepped back, like April, or Annie C, or 4 of her husbands- or sounded the alarm without being well received.

The ones who stuck around to be knowledgeable witnesses are unsurprisingly flawed people.

I contrast the witnesses to Shari D who admired Melanie's book and found her self listening to murder-adjacent stories and a shocking absence of feeling for victims (except Alex, "bless his heart"). Sheri did not respond by making plans to meet Melanie in the Midwest for girls weekend. But that would seem like normal behavior for these witnesses.

It is not really realistic that a person with the wherewithal to do more than lie about sleeping arrangements when a kid is dead would even exist as a witness.

As for Zulema? I don't even want to talk about it. She actually asserted she had no fear for herself, as if anyone gives a hoot if a grown woman is afraid when the entire nation was afraid for Tylee and JJ. SMH.

The self absorption is unreal.

But those are the people who were close enough to Chad and Lori to know things.

MOO.

It seems sometimes people get on a collision course with themselves. Nothing was going to change what happened when Lori and Chad had so many admirers. Just a sick bunch. <modsnip>
Yes I have met people that I couldn’t wait to get away from. Lori and Chad would be two of them.

 

[Ruminations]

IMO they didn't know that a murder occurred. When MG and DW were leaving, DW asked Lori where JJ was and was told that Alex had him. A few weeks later Lori revealed to MG that she gave JJ to Kay. When Chad and Lori asked MG in November to tell police she had him, MG was surprised to learn that JJ was not with his grandmother. MG only got suspicious after lying for Lori.

I agree but Love Never Fails' point is well taken. David and Melanie SHOULD have handled that day very differently.

Where I'm landing on this is that they should have but couldn't- because of their severely flawed characters.

And- of course! Look at the people they followed! Who but a severely flawed person would follow them?

I think it is pretty clear that whether they knew JJ was murdered or not, they did one of two things (or both):

1) They invented concern for JJ not being home or even reported to be in school retroactively, or

2) They invented lapses of memory where they would not be typical.

If the welfare check day was the aha moment for Melanie, at that point any fading memories of Sept 22 weekend, just a month earlier, would have been rehashed in a normal brain.

I don't think we know for certain that Melanie and David did not know JJ (and for that matter Tylee) were murdered. We will never have any clarity on that while they lie. But we also do not know that they did know that one or both of them were murdered. The threat Lori made, that Melanie will be held accountable for what she knows comes to mind. Of course, it is not like a murder can tattle on an accomplice or emotional enabler while pleading not guilty.

And they are some of the witnesses we have- LNF is also right that they are flawed witnesses. Thank goodness for digital evidence. Imagine what those liars would be asserting absent that!

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

spot on! Obviously when Alex carried JJ back home over his shoulder, IMO, he was dead. Alex carried up to Loris bedroom and left him there. She's the one who wrapped him up. Hopefully they found finger prints on the tape, or a hair.

I hope you are right that JJ was already dead when taped up. The grief I feel that he was murdered is multiplied by imagining him restrained alive.

 

[legalmomma]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623723704026034181

 

[legalmomma]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623724728606429184

 

[Love Never Fails]

I hope you are right that JJ was already dead when taped up. The grief I feel that he was murdered is multiplied by imagining him restrained alive.

I hope you are right that JJ was already dead when taped up. The grief I feel that he was murdered is multiplied by imagining him restrained alive.

I wonder if there would be a way to prove at autopsy if JJ were still alive when his mouth was taped. Surely he was so that he couldn’t scream. What makes a person hate Lori the most is that she didn’t care about murdering her own children. She was gleeful!

 

[Love Never Fails]

I agree but Love Never Fails' point is well taken. David and Melanie SHOULD have handled that day very differently.

Where I'm landing on this is that they should have but couldn't- because of their severely flawed characters.

And- of course! Look at the people they followed! Who but a severely flawed person would follow them?

I think it is pretty clear that whether they knew JJ was murdered or not, they did one of two things (or both):

1) They invented concern for JJ not being home or even reported to be in school retroactively, or

2) They invented lapses of memory where they would not be typical.

If the welfare check day was the aha moment for Melanie, at that point any fading memories of Sept 22 weekend, just a month earlier, would have been rehashed in a normal brain.

I don't think we know for certain that Melanie and David did not know JJ (and for that matter Tylee) were murdered. We will never have any clarity on that while they lie. But we also do not know that they did know that one or both of them were murdered. The threat Lori made, that Melanie will be held accountable for what she knows comes to mind. Of course, it is not like a murder can tattle on an accomplice or emotional enabler while pleading not guilty.

And they are some of the witnesses we have- LNF is also right that they are flawed witnesses. Thank goodness for digital evidence. Imagine what those liars would be asserting absent that!

MOO

Yes that was exactly my point. Thank you.

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623735951725043713

Motions regarding Lori's case are now over. Chad Daybell's motions will begin after a 15 minute recess. Archibald says Lori wants to remain in the courtroom during Chad's portion. Boyce says that's fine.

 

[indicolite22]

I agree but Love Never Fails' point is well taken. David and Melanie SHOULD have handled that day very differently.

Where I'm landing on this is that they should have but couldn't- because of their severely flawed characters.

And- of course! Look at the people they followed! Who but a severely flawed person would follow them?

I think it is pretty clear that whether they knew JJ was murdered or not, they did one of two things (or both):

1) They invented concern for JJ not being home or even reported to be in school retroactively, or

2) They invented lapses of memory where they would not be typical.

If the welfare check day was the aha moment for Melanie, at that point any fading memories of Sept 22 weekend, just a month earlier, would have been rehashed in a normal brain.

I don't think we know for certain that Melanie and David did not know JJ (and for that matter Tylee) were murdered. We will never have any clarity on that while they lie. But we also do not know that they did know that one or both of them were murdered. The threat Lori made, that Melanie will be held accountable for what she knows comes to mind. Of course, it is not like a murder can tattle on an accomplice or emotional enabler while pleading not guilty.

And they are some of the witnesses we have- LNF is also right that they are flawed witnesses. Thank goodness for digital evidence. Imagine what those liars would be asserting absent that!

MOO

IMO the aha moment for MG didn't come on the day of the welfare check but later. I don't think she would have lied to police if she thought that that could implicate her in a murder. She initially likely believed Lori that JJ was in hiding from KW. What she learned later probably helped her change her mind, including her decision to record Lori. Doing so she did help the prosecution although her motivation was likely self-protection.
I took Lori's threat about MG being held accountable differently. IMO Lori was alluding to being judged/punished by God within the framework of their cult. MG knew too much about their special beliefs. If she tried to turn her back on the cult, there was a chance that she'd be labeled dark.