cottonweaver
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ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #70
- Thread starter Patch Tuesday
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Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 20th - State witness: Fremont County Sheriff's Office Det. Bruce Mattingly.
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
10h
NEW THREAD: We are back from lunch. The prosecution and defense are ready to proceed. As the attorneys meet in the corner of the courtroom with Judge Boyce, Lori turns her chair to face them and takes notes. No white noise played in the courtroom today.
Rachel Smith says the trial is moving much quicker than originally thought and prosecutors propose taking tomorrow off. The defense has no problem with this so there will be no court tomorrow.
Sketches of David Warwick from this morning.
Fremont County Sheriff's Office Det. Bruce Mattingly called to the stand.
He is being questioned by Spencer Rammell.
Mattingly has been a detective for six years. Rammell asks Mattingly about Jan. 3, 2020. The detective says a search warrant was executed that morning at Chad Daybell's house. FBI was on scene and police took evidence from the house.
Mattingly says he and Lt. Joe Powell took the items to the sheriff's office in St. Anthony.
Mattingly says on Jan. 15, he took the electronic items seized from Chad's house to the FBI Intermountain West Computer Forsenic Laboratory.
Rammell has no further questions for Mattingly but he remains under subpoena because he will be testifying later in the trial. The defense has no questions for the detective.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
10h
NEW THREAD: We are back from lunch. The prosecution and defense are ready to proceed. As the attorneys meet in the corner of the courtroom with Judge Boyce, Lori turns her chair to face them and takes notes. No white noise played in the courtroom today.
Rachel Smith says the trial is moving much quicker than originally thought and prosecutors propose taking tomorrow off. The defense has no problem with this so there will be no court tomorrow.
Sketches of David Warwick from this morning.
Fremont County Sheriff's Office Det. Bruce Mattingly called to the stand.
He is being questioned by Spencer Rammell.
Mattingly has been a detective for six years. Rammell asks Mattingly about Jan. 3, 2020. The detective says a search warrant was executed that morning at Chad Daybell's house. FBI was on scene and police took evidence from the house.
Mattingly says he and Lt. Joe Powell took the items to the sheriff's office in St. Anthony.
Mattingly says on Jan. 15, he took the electronic items seized from Chad's house to the FBI Intermountain West Computer Forsenic Laboratory.
Rammell has no further questions for Mattingly but he remains under subpoena because he will be testifying later in the trial. The defense has no questions for the detective.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
Niner
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Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 20th - State witness: FBI Intelligence Analyst Benjamin Dean.
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
10h
Next witness is FBI Intelligence Analyst Benjamin Dean.
Dean works in the Salt Lake City Field Office on a Criminal Investigation Squad. His main job is to analyze information and make assessments on specific threats. He reviews information collected by agents in the field looking for trends and patterns in electronic devices.
Dean's involvement in the Daybell case was to review tips that came in following a press release issued on March 5, 2020. Tylee and JJ had been seen at Yellowstone National Park and the news release requested anyone who had visited the park with photos or video to send them in.
Dean was also asked to review data from electronic devices that had been seized from Chad's house in January 2020.
Dean was asked to review two BlueRay discs seized from Chad's house. Rammell asks about the second disc. Dean says the disc belonged to Seth Daybell, Chad's son.
Dean technically explains how he analyzed the first BlueRay disc to find out what was on it.
The first BlueRay disc contained information obtained from Tammy Daybell's cell phone, Dean says. Dean says there were emails to and from Tammy and communication on the device with members of the Daybell family.
"The content shows the user of the device had a close relationship with the Daybell family." There were also photos of Tammy on the device with her husband, kids and grandkids.
Rammell asks Dean whether Tammy Daybell's phone received any text messages on Sept. 9, 2019. He says there was a message sent from Chad to Tammy.
Rammell asks to admit a copy of text messages exchanged between Chad and Tammy on Sept. 9, 2019.
Rammell asks Dean to read the text messages and time stamps. The first message was at 11:53 a.m. from Chad to Tammy talking about shooting a raccoon in the yard. At 11:56 a.m., Chad sent another text saying he was going to shower and then write at BYU.
At 2:47 p.m., Tammy wrote to Chad, "Good for you." At 2:48 p.m., Chad wrote to Tammy, "I'm back home now."
Dean says the first message from Chad to Tammy stood out to him because normally their text exchanges were very short.
"This message appeared to be the first and only time wherein Chad texted Tammy a rather detailed and step-by-step explanation of his day's events in any sort of a narrative style."
Dean says the date of the text message stood out to him because he was originally assigned to look for tips about JJ and Tylee from Yellowstone on Sept. 8, 2019.
Then Chad sent the message the next day and Dean "became concerned" because the text was sent the day after Tylee was last seen alive. Rammell has no further questions for Dean.
Archibald has no questions for Dean and he is released from the witness stand.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
10h
Next witness is FBI Intelligence Analyst Benjamin Dean.
Dean works in the Salt Lake City Field Office on a Criminal Investigation Squad. His main job is to analyze information and make assessments on specific threats. He reviews information collected by agents in the field looking for trends and patterns in electronic devices.
Dean's involvement in the Daybell case was to review tips that came in following a press release issued on March 5, 2020. Tylee and JJ had been seen at Yellowstone National Park and the news release requested anyone who had visited the park with photos or video to send them in.
Dean was also asked to review data from electronic devices that had been seized from Chad's house in January 2020.
Dean was asked to review two BlueRay discs seized from Chad's house. Rammell asks about the second disc. Dean says the disc belonged to Seth Daybell, Chad's son.
Dean technically explains how he analyzed the first BlueRay disc to find out what was on it.
The first BlueRay disc contained information obtained from Tammy Daybell's cell phone, Dean says. Dean says there were emails to and from Tammy and communication on the device with members of the Daybell family.
"The content shows the user of the device had a close relationship with the Daybell family." There were also photos of Tammy on the device with her husband, kids and grandkids.
Rammell asks Dean whether Tammy Daybell's phone received any text messages on Sept. 9, 2019. He says there was a message sent from Chad to Tammy.
Rammell asks to admit a copy of text messages exchanged between Chad and Tammy on Sept. 9, 2019.
Rammell asks Dean to read the text messages and time stamps. The first message was at 11:53 a.m. from Chad to Tammy talking about shooting a raccoon in the yard. At 11:56 a.m., Chad sent another text saying he was going to shower and then write at BYU.
At 2:47 p.m., Tammy wrote to Chad, "Good for you." At 2:48 p.m., Chad wrote to Tammy, "I'm back home now."
Dean says the first message from Chad to Tammy stood out to him because normally their text exchanges were very short.
"This message appeared to be the first and only time wherein Chad texted Tammy a rather detailed and step-by-step explanation of his day's events in any sort of a narrative style."
Dean says the date of the text message stood out to him because he was originally assigned to look for tips about JJ and Tylee from Yellowstone on Sept. 8, 2019.
Then Chad sent the message the next day and Dean "became concerned" because the text was sent the day after Tylee was last seen alive. Rammell has no further questions for Dean.
Archibald has no questions for Dean and he is released from the witness stand.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
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Summary of tweets for Thursday, April 20th - State witness: Rexburg Police Det. David Stubbs.
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
9h
You can read more about the raccoon text message here. Next witness is Rexburg Police Det. Stubbs.
Stubbs is dressed in a suit, white shirt and red tie. Rachel Smith says she plans to admit business records and other documents during the testimony.
Smith is listing the exhibits. They include Amazon records, insurance information, travel records, documents concerning Spring Creek Book Company and Tammy Daybell's Gmail account and Fitbit records.
Smith continues to list the exhibits which include cell phone records, hotel receipts, business documents and life insurance information.
We have a lot of financial exhibits being admitted into evidence. They include Tammy Daybell's Walmart prescription information, lots of cell phone records and more life insurance records.
Smith will now question Stubbs. He has been involved in law enforcement for 30 years and is the second-line supervisor over the Rexburg Police Department detective division.
Stubbs specializes in collecting evidence from cell phones, computers and other electronic devices. He estimates he's analyzed hundreds of devices over the years.
Stubbs's first involvement with the case started on Nov. 1, 2019. The Fremont County Sheriff's Office had been given information from authorities in AZ who were interested in finding a Jeep Wrangler with a Texas license plate they believed was involved in a shooting in Arizona.
Police were given the names of Lori Vallow, Alex Cox, JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan. They were associated with the Jeep and officers went to the residence where they set up surveillance in different locations surrounding the apartment.
They were unable to locate the Jeep that day but the vehicle was found on Nov. 4.
While they were conducting surveillance for the Jeep, Stubbs witnessed Lori and Chad getting into a blue Subaru. Officers followed them hoping it might lead them to the Jeep.
Chad and Lori ended up in Idaho Falls where they stopped at Mountain America Credit Union before going into Hobby Lobby.
Stubbs took photos of Chad and Lori walking toward the store. Copies of the pictures are shown to the jury and everyone watching the trial.
"My observations are they were holding hands and at times talking. I witnessed Lori at times placing her hand on his shoulder as they walked toward the store," Stubbs says. Chad is wearing a blue T-shirt and Lori is wearing a black sweatshirt.
Smith asks if Stubbs was aware of the relationship between Chad and Lori at the time. He says he had been told they were together. The Jeep was found Nov. 4 in the parking lot outside Apt. 175.
The vehicle was towed to a secure impound lot. The owner listed on the registration was Joe Ryan and Tylee Ryan.
Stubbs says nobody ever inquired about the Jeep - where it had gone, why it was towed, nothing. Stubbs says police even reached out and tried to talk to someone but were unsuccessful.
Stubbs says on Nov. 26, police were asked to go back to Lori's apartment after Kay Woodcock requested a welfare check be done on JJ Vallow.
Stubbs says he and Lt. Ball went to the apartment. They knocked on the door of Apt. 175 and were able to make contact with Lori Vallow. Stubbs was wearing a body camera. Smith asks to admit the body camera footage.
Smith asks to play the body camera footage for the jurors and those in the courtroom. It's about five minutes long.
The video has audio and shows Stubbs walking up to the door with Det. Ball. It's a sunny day with clouds in the sky. No snow on the ground. Stubbs says to Ball, "Her car is out there too. It's in the back. A blue Subaru." Ball knocks on the door.
Lori lets the officers in and Lori says JJ is in Arizona with one of her friends - Melanie Gibb in Arizona. Lori says, "What is all this?" Ball says they are concerned and officers who were there earlier "got a bad vibe" because they couldn't find JJ.
Lori says one of her brothers is trying to kill her for her $2 million life insurance policy." A lot of stuff has gone on and this past year has been horrible for us. We've had to move around." Lori says JJ went to school at Kennedy for two months.
Lori says Kay has been fighting her for access to JJ. Now Lori is saying her husband switched his life insurance policy to Kay and she got $1 million. "She was going to try to sue me for him (JJ) and I have nothing," Lori says.
"She does nothing that wants to cause me trouble. I don't tell people the truth about where we are or what we're doing." Lori says everyone is causing her trouble.
Lori says she's going to go back to Arizona because school was too hard for JJ. Lori has her armed folded across her chest as she speaks with the officers. She blames everything on Kay and Stubbs tells her that their main concern is the child.
"It's awful. I feel like I'm being tracked all the time." Ball says detectives were at the house earlier that day and they ran into two guys. Lori says one was his brother. Ball asks who the other guy was. Lori says,
"My brother and his friend." Ball asks what the friend's name is. "Chad." Ball asks about the Chad Daybell and says, "Didn't his wife pass away recently?" Lori says nothing.
Lori says her brother in Kansas is trying to kill her. Ball asks if they need to be concerned about him. Lori says she is moving back to Arizona to live with Melanie Gibb and tells the officers not to tell anyone. The officers leave the apartment.
As the video was being played, Lori (in the courtroom) looked at the screen, took notes and whispered to her attorney.
Stubbs thought it was interesting that Lori referred to Chad as her brother's friend. Stubbs had seen Lori and Chad affectionate in the Hobby Lobby parking lot and they were aware that the two had gotten married.
During the visit, Stubbs was concerned about officer safety as Det. Hermosillo and Det. Hope had spoken with Chad and Alex earlier that day.
"Not only were we dealing with a situation where one of these individuals was possibly involved in an attempted shooting in Arizona but the individuals were being evasive and lying," Stubbs says.
He was concerned that Lori said Alex was there yet he didn't come downstairs. "My attention was drawn because at the top of the stairs, I could see movements...I was concerned for our safety if someone was to come down and try and surprise us."
Time for an afternoon break. Smith says another video will be shown after the recess.
We are back in the courtroom and jurors are being brought in.
Stubbs continues his testimony and says they went back to the apartment because Melanie Gibb was not answering her phone. A video will now be played showing the follow-up visit.
The video shows Stubbs back at the apartment with Ball. Stubbs says, "Let's just see if she will call and have Melanie get a hold of (Det.) Hope because apparently she's not answering the phone down there." Ball knocks on the door and loudly says, "Lori."
Lori answers and says the reason they can't get a hold of Melanie Gibb is because she is at 'Frozen 2' with JJ. Stubbs tells Lori to tell Gibb that she needs to call Det. Hope to confirm the whereabouts of JJ.
The apartment visit was the last encounter police had with Lori that day. Stubbs says officers were able to get a hold of Melanie Gibb that afternoon/evening and said she did not have JJ, she was not in Arizona and they had not been to the movies.
Stubbs says after assessing the statements Lori made to law enforcement that day, "they were, by in large, inaccurate." Stubbs lists the inaccuracies - that JJ was in Arizona, her daughter was attending BYUI, the fact Lori said Chad was Alex's friend, etc.
After Lori said her brother was trying to come to Rexburg and kill her for the $2 million life insurance policy, Stubbs investigated and said there was no evidence of those claims.
Stubbs also discovered Tylee Ryan never enrolled at BYUI and JJ Vallow was reenrolled at a special needs school in Arizona.
While this is being discussed in the courtroom, Lori is paying attention - moving her eyes back and forth between Smith and Stubbs as questions are asked and answered.
Stubbs says police attempted to get a warrant so they could search for evidence of JJ Vallow inside the apartment. Warrants were obtained for three different apartments in the complex. Stubbs took video footage in apartments 174 and 175 to document what was inside.
We are now viewing the video Stubbs took inside the apartments. He announces that he is entering 175 and "recording the whole house." Police served a no-knock entry warrant to get inside. We see the front room and kitchen.
There are keys on the counter, an envelope from Amazon and a package from Amazon was on the front porch. He shows the kitchen, pantry, half-bathroom, door leading out to the garage. Inside the garage there are couches, tables, guns and several totes.
Stubbs now walks up the stairs. We see the master bedroom with a bed, bath and closet area. There are no clothes in the closet and a towel is hanging on the door by the shower.
In another room there are two little computer desks and a printer with a lease agreement from Self Storage Plus. The name on the agreement is Lori Ryan. There's a laundry room upstairs, a furnace/water heater closet, a bathroom and two bedrooms.
One room has a double bed, a closet with some boxes and clothes. The other bedroom has a bed with bedding on the floor, three guitars in cases and a duffle bag full of toiletries and cologne. There are two Samari swords inside the closet and empty laundry baskets.
That is the entire house on video.
Court is now being adjourned until Monday at 8:30 a.m. I will post the sketches when we receive them and recap all the events tonight at 7:30 p.m. on 'Courtroom Insider.' Join me on my Facebook page or the East Idaho News YouTube channel.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
Nate Eaton
@NateNewsNow
·
9h
You can read more about the raccoon text message here. Next witness is Rexburg Police Det. Stubbs.
Stubbs is dressed in a suit, white shirt and red tie. Rachel Smith says she plans to admit business records and other documents during the testimony.
Smith is listing the exhibits. They include Amazon records, insurance information, travel records, documents concerning Spring Creek Book Company and Tammy Daybell's Gmail account and Fitbit records.
Smith continues to list the exhibits which include cell phone records, hotel receipts, business documents and life insurance information.
We have a lot of financial exhibits being admitted into evidence. They include Tammy Daybell's Walmart prescription information, lots of cell phone records and more life insurance records.
Smith will now question Stubbs. He has been involved in law enforcement for 30 years and is the second-line supervisor over the Rexburg Police Department detective division.
Stubbs specializes in collecting evidence from cell phones, computers and other electronic devices. He estimates he's analyzed hundreds of devices over the years.
Stubbs's first involvement with the case started on Nov. 1, 2019. The Fremont County Sheriff's Office had been given information from authorities in AZ who were interested in finding a Jeep Wrangler with a Texas license plate they believed was involved in a shooting in Arizona.
Police were given the names of Lori Vallow, Alex Cox, JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan. They were associated with the Jeep and officers went to the residence where they set up surveillance in different locations surrounding the apartment.
They were unable to locate the Jeep that day but the vehicle was found on Nov. 4.
While they were conducting surveillance for the Jeep, Stubbs witnessed Lori and Chad getting into a blue Subaru. Officers followed them hoping it might lead them to the Jeep.
Chad and Lori ended up in Idaho Falls where they stopped at Mountain America Credit Union before going into Hobby Lobby.
Stubbs took photos of Chad and Lori walking toward the store. Copies of the pictures are shown to the jury and everyone watching the trial.
"My observations are they were holding hands and at times talking. I witnessed Lori at times placing her hand on his shoulder as they walked toward the store," Stubbs says. Chad is wearing a blue T-shirt and Lori is wearing a black sweatshirt.
Smith asks if Stubbs was aware of the relationship between Chad and Lori at the time. He says he had been told they were together. The Jeep was found Nov. 4 in the parking lot outside Apt. 175.
The vehicle was towed to a secure impound lot. The owner listed on the registration was Joe Ryan and Tylee Ryan.
Stubbs says nobody ever inquired about the Jeep - where it had gone, why it was towed, nothing. Stubbs says police even reached out and tried to talk to someone but were unsuccessful.
Stubbs says on Nov. 26, police were asked to go back to Lori's apartment after Kay Woodcock requested a welfare check be done on JJ Vallow.
Stubbs says he and Lt. Ball went to the apartment. They knocked on the door of Apt. 175 and were able to make contact with Lori Vallow. Stubbs was wearing a body camera. Smith asks to admit the body camera footage.
Smith asks to play the body camera footage for the jurors and those in the courtroom. It's about five minutes long.
The video has audio and shows Stubbs walking up to the door with Det. Ball. It's a sunny day with clouds in the sky. No snow on the ground. Stubbs says to Ball, "Her car is out there too. It's in the back. A blue Subaru." Ball knocks on the door.
Lori lets the officers in and Lori says JJ is in Arizona with one of her friends - Melanie Gibb in Arizona. Lori says, "What is all this?" Ball says they are concerned and officers who were there earlier "got a bad vibe" because they couldn't find JJ.
Lori says one of her brothers is trying to kill her for her $2 million life insurance policy." A lot of stuff has gone on and this past year has been horrible for us. We've had to move around." Lori says JJ went to school at Kennedy for two months.
Lori says Kay has been fighting her for access to JJ. Now Lori is saying her husband switched his life insurance policy to Kay and she got $1 million. "She was going to try to sue me for him (JJ) and I have nothing," Lori says.
"She does nothing that wants to cause me trouble. I don't tell people the truth about where we are or what we're doing." Lori says everyone is causing her trouble.
Lori says she's going to go back to Arizona because school was too hard for JJ. Lori has her armed folded across her chest as she speaks with the officers. She blames everything on Kay and Stubbs tells her that their main concern is the child.
"It's awful. I feel like I'm being tracked all the time." Ball says detectives were at the house earlier that day and they ran into two guys. Lori says one was his brother. Ball asks who the other guy was. Lori says,
"My brother and his friend." Ball asks what the friend's name is. "Chad." Ball asks about the Chad Daybell and says, "Didn't his wife pass away recently?" Lori says nothing.
Lori says her brother in Kansas is trying to kill her. Ball asks if they need to be concerned about him. Lori says she is moving back to Arizona to live with Melanie Gibb and tells the officers not to tell anyone. The officers leave the apartment.
As the video was being played, Lori (in the courtroom) looked at the screen, took notes and whispered to her attorney.
Stubbs thought it was interesting that Lori referred to Chad as her brother's friend. Stubbs had seen Lori and Chad affectionate in the Hobby Lobby parking lot and they were aware that the two had gotten married.
During the visit, Stubbs was concerned about officer safety as Det. Hermosillo and Det. Hope had spoken with Chad and Alex earlier that day.
"Not only were we dealing with a situation where one of these individuals was possibly involved in an attempted shooting in Arizona but the individuals were being evasive and lying," Stubbs says.
He was concerned that Lori said Alex was there yet he didn't come downstairs. "My attention was drawn because at the top of the stairs, I could see movements...I was concerned for our safety if someone was to come down and try and surprise us."
Time for an afternoon break. Smith says another video will be shown after the recess.
We are back in the courtroom and jurors are being brought in.
Stubbs continues his testimony and says they went back to the apartment because Melanie Gibb was not answering her phone. A video will now be played showing the follow-up visit.
The video shows Stubbs back at the apartment with Ball. Stubbs says, "Let's just see if she will call and have Melanie get a hold of (Det.) Hope because apparently she's not answering the phone down there." Ball knocks on the door and loudly says, "Lori."
Lori answers and says the reason they can't get a hold of Melanie Gibb is because she is at 'Frozen 2' with JJ. Stubbs tells Lori to tell Gibb that she needs to call Det. Hope to confirm the whereabouts of JJ.
The apartment visit was the last encounter police had with Lori that day. Stubbs says officers were able to get a hold of Melanie Gibb that afternoon/evening and said she did not have JJ, she was not in Arizona and they had not been to the movies.
Stubbs says after assessing the statements Lori made to law enforcement that day, "they were, by in large, inaccurate." Stubbs lists the inaccuracies - that JJ was in Arizona, her daughter was attending BYUI, the fact Lori said Chad was Alex's friend, etc.
After Lori said her brother was trying to come to Rexburg and kill her for the $2 million life insurance policy, Stubbs investigated and said there was no evidence of those claims.
Stubbs also discovered Tylee Ryan never enrolled at BYUI and JJ Vallow was reenrolled at a special needs school in Arizona.
While this is being discussed in the courtroom, Lori is paying attention - moving her eyes back and forth between Smith and Stubbs as questions are asked and answered.
Stubbs says police attempted to get a warrant so they could search for evidence of JJ Vallow inside the apartment. Warrants were obtained for three different apartments in the complex. Stubbs took video footage in apartments 174 and 175 to document what was inside.
We are now viewing the video Stubbs took inside the apartments. He announces that he is entering 175 and "recording the whole house." Police served a no-knock entry warrant to get inside. We see the front room and kitchen.
There are keys on the counter, an envelope from Amazon and a package from Amazon was on the front porch. He shows the kitchen, pantry, half-bathroom, door leading out to the garage. Inside the garage there are couches, tables, guns and several totes.
Stubbs now walks up the stairs. We see the master bedroom with a bed, bath and closet area. There are no clothes in the closet and a towel is hanging on the door by the shower.
In another room there are two little computer desks and a printer with a lease agreement from Self Storage Plus. The name on the agreement is Lori Ryan. There's a laundry room upstairs, a furnace/water heater closet, a bathroom and two bedrooms.
One room has a double bed, a closet with some boxes and clothes. The other bedroom has a bed with bedding on the floor, three guitars in cases and a duffle bag full of toiletries and cologne. There are two Samari swords inside the closet and empty laundry baskets.
That is the entire house on video.
Court is now being adjourned until Monday at 8:30 a.m. I will post the sketches when we receive them and recap all the events tonight at 7:30 p.m. on 'Courtroom Insider.' Join me on my Facebook page or the East Idaho News YouTube channel.
link: https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow
I am not LDS but have lived in a couple of "Mormon towns" in my life and I know that many people drink hot chocolate. It has caffeine. I'm not saying the rule is not absolute, just that even among very devout Mormons, I've observed some flexibility at least with caffeine. I was once on a work trip to a developing country with a very Mormon workmate. We stopped at a street stand that sold sprite and pepsi. I was very surprised when he chose pepsi. This is a guy that refused to work on Sunday and insisted he get the shared rental car on Sunday so he could attend service and church meetings all day in the far off location.
Um, Milo has caffeine.
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It is. And depending on the details it could be good or bad for either side. The fact that neither side followed up on teh details suggests to me that they know the details and they are not relevant to the trial.
Can you post a link? Not arguing with you but as far as I know there are 3 required steps to getting married:
1. Getting the license
2. Having a ceremony performed by an authorized officiant
3. Recording the marriage certificate.
I've seen plenty of evidence of the first 2 but none for the third. Ive seen LE testimony that they were married but, frankly, cops are not knowledgable on contract law which is what governs marriage. A cop testifying they were married could just be him ignorantly stating a conclusion after seeing a license and pictures of a ceremony.
Yes nit-picking but a potentially extremely important point.
I have not seen anywhere that Lori determined if people were light or dark. I think Chad fed her those ratings.
Yeah, I read that. But what I really want to know is was his nightmare about fighting his way into the 144,000 against demons and zombies when the apocalypse happens or did he think he heard a young boy scream in terror! One is a crazy delusion (my opinion) while teh other could be evidence of murder.
cottonweaver
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As you can see from Nate Eaton's live tweeting of the section of testimony on the nightmare, DW seemed to avoid specifics and nobody pressed him to get into specifics, so we're never going to know.
I'm going to have a look at what Kresha ( Kay Woodcock's daughter) made of yesterday's testimony.
Yes I understand that it's possible that all of it was carried out on a strict timeline, in a meticulous way according to a plan.
I accept that they probably had a general idea of where it was all going, and had taken steps in preparation. But otoh I'm not convinced that what actually happened had to have been carried out per whatever that plan was.
To a great degree that flows from my opinion that Lori - being the self-anointed goddess of her domain - did not have the self control to keep from doing whatever she pleased, whenever she pleased, and to keep from being in a rage out of control. And I strongly believe that if Lori lost control, and went off script, they would have scrambled and adjusted and found a way to do something, to try to hide what happened so they could get away with it. They undoubtedly had plans in the works, to carry out sometime, but can't plans go awry, or get busted, and then have to be modified on the fly? Why couldn't that have happened here?
You say "If she killed the children in a heat of the moment, she couldn't have just dumped them at Chad's" - but, why couldn't she? It seems just as likely to say that "If she killed the children in a heat of the moment, she WAS FORCED TO dump them at Chad's (which, when suddenly faced with a dead body staring them in the face unexpectedly, was the only place the group of plotters could come up with)."
I do have to wonder - is the "best plan possible" one in which bodies are buried ON CHAD's PROPERTY? Or was that the best possibility they found in a mad scramble, when they suddenly had to come up with SOME PLACE because Lori went wacko mad? If they were working according to a plan, out of all the places in the whole wide world, would they select a place connected to themselves?
We can do that same equation with all their choices. Maybe it was exigency, not planning, that took them each direction they chose.
So imo it's impossible to tell whether these were choices carried out per a script at their leisure using a timeline, or whether they were done in a scramble for "what do we do now" that faced them all of a sudden. And it's my observation that Lori is prone to impulsiveness, and fits of rage, which don't fit well with sticking to a strict disciplined action plan. So I wonder.
That may be correct. Although, even if so, there's an argument to be made that Chad's ratings were determined by Lori's whims, or catered to them, and perhaps made in consultation with her. During that time frame, he was going to say and do whatever might make her want to sleep with him, frankly.
It's very possible - maybe even very likely - that DW didn't (and doesn't) retain any memory of the specifics of his nightmare. I can have good dreams or bad, which are very vivid while sleeping, but on waking the details vanish and all I can recall (at most) is some generality.
Of course, we can also assume they had previously asked about his dream, and he had nothing of use (or no memory at all). So no value in asking a dead end in court about the details.
Plus there's also a strategy issue. Pros was smart to leave it unasked, and hope the jury assumes he might have had to do with the screams of a child.
[Post was edited to remove an error in info. Oops.]
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Nikynoo
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JJ was not seen the next morning - Lori came up with the excuse that Alex had taken him because JJ was climbing up the kitchen cabinets, on the fridge and knocking the picture of Jesus off the wall.
JJ slept with Lori the night of the nightmare, and Lori's bedroom door was shut and she did not respond to MG's request for a blessing for David.
cottonweaver
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yes we cannot know if DW retained- at 1am ish - any memory snippets when woken in the middle of what he described as the worst nightmare of his life.
yes agree re pros- best for them to leave it ambiguous but where did you get the idea that JJ was seen alive the next morning?
DW testified yesterday ( & in prelim hearing) that by the time DW woke & came down, Lori told him she'd asked Alex to come get JJ because he was out of control. ( DW omitted y'day that LV had told him that morning that 'JJ was being a zombie.' That is quite the omission but am sure that Pros is okay with that too)
Thanks for the feedback. I misread the info from DW in thinking he said he saw JJ alive in the morning after. But what I was thinking of, was when he spoke of when JJ was brought home before they all went to bed (at 10:30 pm). I will edit my prior post accordingly.
ETA -- If we are thinking Lori might have killed JJ that night, when visitors were there, wouldn't that fit with the idea that the moment of killing was done in a rage, on the spur of the moment? I can't see that as any sort of plan, to do it under the same roof as with guests sleeping there.
ETA -- If we are thinking Lori might have killed JJ that night, when visitors were there, wouldn't that fit with the idea that the moment of killing was done in a rage, on the spur of the moment? I can't see that as any sort of plan, to do it under the same roof as with guests sleeping there.
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cottonweaver
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I'm interested in any record of a pattern of her fits of rage (spontaneous, unpremeditated rage from her own hand)
' And it's my observation that Lori is prone to impulsiveness, and fits of rage....' etc
Can you elaborate? ( we're four years in & it's hard to remember all of it)
A couple of examples -
1 I read of her total vindictiveness, in what happened with Charles. She was the one who wanted out, but she worked hard to smear his reputation (telling everyone he had cheated on her) and to wreck his life (stealing his employees' commissions to put him in financial and legal jeopardy, and taking his vehicle and hiding it so he had no wheels).
2 I see her reaction in court - while she's under a microscope with her future in the balance - when she doesn't get her way --- basically throwing a fit, it's all they can do to get her back into the courtroom, and then she's pouting all afternoon in the presence of the jury who is learning who she is.
I don't think she would be a person you'd want to know in life. There would be great risk, and the MORE so the closer you get to her. That's her ongoing history. There seems to be a lot of anger that's been seething under her surface, it seems to me.
1 I read of her total vindictiveness, in what happened with Charles. She was the one who wanted out, but she worked hard to smear his reputation (telling everyone he had cheated on her) and to wreck his life (stealing his employees' commissions to put him in financial and legal jeopardy, and taking his vehicle and hiding it so he had no wheels).
2 I see her reaction in court - while she's under a microscope with her future in the balance - when she doesn't get her way --- basically throwing a fit, it's all they can do to get her back into the courtroom, and then she's pouting all afternoon in the presence of the jury who is learning who she is.
I don't think she would be a person you'd want to know in life. There would be great risk, and the MORE so the closer you get to her. That's her ongoing history. There seems to be a lot of anger that's been seething under her surface, it seems to me.
Nikynoo
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Also, Zulema testimony - re the failed attempt on Tammy's life - Lori was “very, very angry – scary angry.”
DAY 10 | LIVE UPDATES: Alex Cox's widow says Chad and Lori Daybell taught demons needed to be bound or burned - East Idaho News
LIVE UPDATES FROM THE LORI VALLOW DAYBELL TRIAL Here are the sketches from today. 3:23 p.m. Thomas has more cross-examination, but questioning is done for the day. The jury is being dismissed. No court on Monday, but we will resume Tuesday at 8:30 a.m. I’ll post the sketches and audio when we...
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