ID ID - Dubois, WhtMale Skeletal UP13310, 40-99, in Buffalo Cave, Aug'79

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by Migmuu, Dec 19, 2014.

  1. Migmuu

    Migmuu Member

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    Just added to NamUs today. For some reason, the story sounds very familiar to me but I can't remember where I heard about it or if it's even the same case.

    UP#13310

    DEMOGRAPHICS
    • Age: 18 - 50 years old
    • Race: Caucasian
    • Sex: Male
    • Height: N/A
    • Weight: N/A
    • Postmortem interval: 5 years

    CIRCUMSTANCES
    • Discovery date: 8-26-1979 and 3-30-1991
    • Location: Buffalo Cave, Dubois, Clark County, ID
    • Background: Hikers found the torso of a Caucasian male in the Buffalo Cave in Idaho. 12 years later, in March, a different set of hikers found further remains (an arm and both legs) in the same cave. The skull has never been recovered.

    CLOTHING/JEWELRY DESCRIPTION
    • White shirt w/ red pin striped, maroon sweater, dark-colored pants

    IDENTIFIERS
    • Fingerprints: N/A (skeletal remains)
    • Dentals: Currently not available
    • DNA: Currently not available
     
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  3. bflocket

    bflocket Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure they'll get to moving it soon. Mods usually keep up with that kind of thing...

    I couldn't find a DoeNet profile for these remains, but found a news story from when they found more of the remains in 1991.

    The story's got a few more details (NamUS usually keeps the details short and sweet).
    It states that the torso was wrapped in burlap. They are fairly certain he was a murder victim as the body was intentionally dismembered ("cleanly severed from the body..."), likely with a saw. The later finds were "leathery" due to the conditions of the cave.

    Human limbs discovered in Idaho cave likely came from torso found in '79 (The Deseret News, Salt Lake City, UT 4/3/1991)

    *Sent a msg to Carlk90245 about moving it. Usually see him on most UID threads so thought he could help.
    **Sent him another msg because it should be ID (not IL)
     
  4. Migmuu

    Migmuu Member

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    Thanks!

    The article does have a lot more information. I think the most important is that the postmortem interval given is 6 months to 5 years. NamUs just said 5 years so I was looking for people missing between 1973 and 1975, and I couldn't find anyone missing from Idaho during that time. With the new postmortem interval, one MP from Idaho shows up:

    Franklin Harder
    - Age (25) is within range
    - Race (Caucasian) matches
    - Disappeared 1 year, 4 months prior to the discovery of the remains

    Unfortunately, there isn't anything else that you can use to compare Harder to the UID. The distance between Grangeville (where he went missing) and Dubois is 432 miles. That's very far, but there's practically no info on the circumstances of his disappearance, so..
     
  5. Migmuu

    Migmuu Member

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    I found another article from April 1991:

    S.L. Homicide in '89, Discovery of Limbs in Cave May be Related

    This is a good summary Robert Eugene Bennett's crimes. However, since the UID isn't listed as one of his victims, I'm assuming the connection wasn't made.
     
  6. bflocket

    bflocket Well-Known Member

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    It seems like whoever killed the guy in the cave did a Hell of a lot better job at hiding the remains than Bennett did with his friend.
     
  7. tifflee

    tifflee Member

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    I wanted to post Larry Marvin Morris here: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/morris_larry.html.

    There are so many locations listed in his profile that he could be buried in the vicinity of: Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, California - and if you take his travel plans into account, Yellowstone National Park and Oklahoma.
     
  8. krashkart

    krashkart New Member

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    Well this is certainly a trip down memory lane. I volunteered to go along with the ISU anthro department to search for the skull back in late 80's or early 90's. I was a junior high student at the time. We managed to unearth the skeleton of a bison and that was about it. The sheriff who accompanied us found a dead ostrich in another chamber deeper in the cave. Turned out there was an ostrich farm up the road from there, and the sheriff mentioned something about bear baiting. Anyway, I've always wondered about the identity of who we were looking for.
     
  9. alb1on

    alb1on Active Member

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    As stated in the link, Morris was thought to have been murdered by James Franklin Jagers and Jack Lincoln. Jagers sought a deal for info in 1983 but it did not happen. It seems Jagers died in Paris, Ohio in July 2014. I wonder if he left any clues? I agree Morris is a possible based on the info about the case. My only doubts are that it seems Jagers and Lincoln were only recorded in Idaho on May 8 - two weeks after Morris disappeared and after they seem to have done a grand tour of various other states. Would they have driven round with a corpse for that long (or did they visit Idaho earlier?).
     
  10. alb1on

    alb1on Active Member

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    Whilst I like Morris as a possible (certainly worth looking at more closely) I also wonder about two other possibilities.

    Gerald Leroy DeWall went missing January 26 1977 from Kallispell Montana. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dewall_gerald.html
    This is actually somewhat nearer than Franklin Harder's disappearance (370 miles away). He was 30 years old and Caucasian but there seems no other details.

    The story also sounded familiar to me. A bit of searching suggested it may have linked in my mind with the Michael Dauber case in Idaho, where he shot and dismembered a friend. Obviously Dauber is not responsible for this case as he was only a young child at the time but set me thinking. Dauber was the son of Chicago mob hit man Billy Dauber. Dismemberment was a signature for some mob murders. Could the victim in this case be an organised crime murder? If so we may never know who he is as most victims would have gone missing without notification. The only known case I wondered about was George Jay Vandermark - the mob skim artist who disappeared from Vegas in August 76 after crossing the Chicago family. Whilst he was said to have gone home to Phoenix and then onto Mexico to escape, none of this was verified. The suspected murderers, strangely, were Chicago mob associates of Dauber senior.
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/v/vandermark_george.html
     
  11. ctaylor

    ctaylor Active Member

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  12. Migmuu

    Migmuu Member

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    The NamUs page was apparently modified yesterday:

    Age: Changed from 18 - 50 to 40+
    Height: Changed from "Cannot estimate" to 59 inches (4'11)
    Clothing: White shirt w/ red pinstripes changed to white shirt w/ blue pinstripes
    They also added a picture of the shirt

    ETA: Probably should be noted that I'm 99% sure 4'11 is an error and they meant to write 5'9 instead
     
  13. bflocket

    bflocket Well-Known Member

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    That would be a lot shorter than me, and as I'm short as can be. But I can see it being possible that they really meant 59". Since they've upgraded the age range to the older side, I know a lot of older people are short. Not just because of nutrition (i.e. younger being exposed to more vitamin-enriched flour, supplements, etc) but because of osteoporosis and progressing arthritis and the like.

    I know that people can "shrink" or their posture gets worse (I know what I'm talking about but don't know how to say it). That is one of the reasons older people seem shorter (because they're kind of hunched over). When a body turns skeletal, how is height measured? Would a hunched-over 5'10" person who "shrinks" in such a way be determined to be 5'10" or the 5'7" or so that they "appear to be?"
     
  14. Migmuu

    Migmuu Member

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    When you die, your muscles become dehydrated and will begin to contract. This especially happens in dry environments where mummification takes place. It's actually the reason why you have the myth that nails grow after death; they don't grow, it's just that the flesh dehydrates and will "pull back", which makes it look like the nails actually grew.

    Height is determined by measuring certain bones - the femur (thighbone), humerus (bone connecting shoulder to elbow) and the radius (one of the two bones in your wrist). Forensic anthropologists have different formulas they use to determine height, depending on the bone and the skeleton's sex. It's not perfect since not everyone arm/leg ratio is the same, but you can still get a pretty accurate estimation if you know the sex and you're using multiple bones to determine the height.
    This site explains it in layman's terms and shows you the different formulas.

    I'm pretty sure a 5'10 person who "shrinks" would still be measured at around 5'10, since the bones themselves don't shrink and the femur, radius and humerus still remain the same height. I'm also sure the anthropologist would take the estimated age and any damage to the bones (whether through disease or trauma) into account too when trying to determine the height.
     
  15. OkieGranny

    OkieGranny New Member Staff Member Forum Coordinators

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    http://www.localnews8.com/news/Clark-County-deputies-following-leads-after-search/31592142

     
  16. docbh

    docbh New Member

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  17. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good information in this article.

    The article indicates DNA is available, but Namus says "tests not complete."

    Namus has a picture of the shirt in question. I see why they call it a pink shirt, but it looks to me more like it's a white shirt that was stained pink by the color fading from the maroon sweater. Sort of like your white shirts with red socks.

    Namus also says they have fingerprints. Wow. Must have been able to reconstitute them from mummified skin.
     

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