Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, arrested* #21

[Alpha Bravo]

Psychopathy is related to a physiological defect that results in the underdevelopment of the part of the brain responsible for impulse control and emotions. Sociopathy, on the other hand, is more likely the product of childhood trauma and physical, emotional abuse.

BBM

How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath

From the article: "Leading experts disagree on whether there are meaningful differences between the two conditions. "

Who are you to be a bigger expert than "Leading Experts"? Because someone typed out an article? Lori is unique.

"(1). It is believed that psychopathy is largely the result of “nature” (genetics) ~snip~At least 40 percent of all serial killers are unrepentant psychopaths." Not seeing Lori repenting much. But I'm sure an armchair quack will discover her hidden flaw.

 

[caseface]

Certainly most survivors of childhood trauma do not go on to become killers; however, killers do seem to have experienced quite a great deal of childhood trauma. Even if she did, she is not excused from what she does. Trauma can lead to mental illness and criminal activity and there are studies on its prevalence based upon how much is experienced in life. Indeed, the changes for mental illness, drug abuse, criminal activity, disease, etc. go up the more adverse experiences a child has. The goal is to better understand Lori; not to dismiss her actions. In better understanding her unconscious motivations, we can begin to think about what she would do with the children. There's way more than "she is a spoiled brat who is used to things being handed to her." If that is our only guideline, we would never understand her behavior.

Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs)

I’m not disputing what you’re saying as I’ve read quite a lot about it and understand that it’s true. However there’s a lot of people that have gone through abuse, childhood trauma and some pretty horrific life changing events that don’t go on to become killers. Even those who haven’t accessed counselling and therapy. They may be scarred by the events that happened to them but they still function, work and become good parents without furthering the abuse cycle.

To me and IMO it’s too easy to say that she may have MH issues, may have suffered abuse as it justifies or excuses her actions. We all make choices and have to face the consequences of our actions. What makes some survivors of abuse killers when it doesn’t to others? MOO

It's obvious to me Lori has APD (antisocial Personality Disorder) and it may be she is a mix of being a psychopath, sociopath narcissist. Some or much of it may be learned or via life experience. "Among persons who display APD, those called psychopaths are distinguished by a nearly complete inability to form genuine emotional attachments to others; " Such seems to be the case with Charles, JJ and the dog Bailey. Plus, her being on her 5th marriage, well I see 5 red flags.

REGARDLESS - if your point is to feel sorry for her for her "supposed" childhood trauma, NAH... There is actually zero anecdote of that... if so perhaps she can bring it up at her trial.

Those with APD usually have trauma in their past: Abuse and neglect in childhood: relationship to personality disorder diagnoses. - PubMed - NCBI

No one feels sorry for Lori. At least I do not. But if we form a one sided view of her, we are not being objective and we will miss the truth behind her motives. We must understand a criminal in order to know where to look.

 

[indicolite22]

Well, he wasn't lying that time? The plan was apparently, to dispose of them before the blissful blessings of taking their vows on the beach in paradise, and the dirty deeds were done... dirt cheap.

He could have told his parents that her kids were staying with someone else and be consistent with his later claims. By saying they did not exist he set himself up for later accusations that he knew they were dead and weren't coming back.

 

[caseface]

To me and IMO it’s too easy to say that she may have MH issues, may have suffered abuse as it justifies or excuses her actions. We all make choices and have to face the consequences of our actions. What makes some survivors of abuse killers when it doesn’t to others? MOO[/QUOTE]

It's obvious to me Lori has APD (antisocial Personality Disorder) and it may be she is a mix of being a psychopath, sociopath narcissist. Some or much of it may be learned or via life experience. "Among persons who display APD, those called psychopaths are distinguished by a nearly complete inability to form genuine emotional attachments to others; " Such seems to be the case with Charles, JJ and the dog Bailey. Plus, her being on her 5th marriage, well I see 5 red flags.

REGARDLESS - if your point is to feel sorry for her for her "supposed" childhood trauma, NAH... There is actually zero anecdote of that... if so perhaps she can bring it up at her trial.

Those with APD usually have trauma in their past: Abuse and neglect in childhood: relationship to personality disorder diagnoses. - PubMed - NCBI

No one feels sorry for Lori. At least I do not. But if we form a one sided view of her, we are not being objective and we will miss the truth behind her motives. We must understand a criminal in order to know where to look. And adding MH issues to her profile is not making it too easy. It's adding an additional piece to the puzzle. There is no one cause behind criminal acts. There are multiple. Mental Health is one such factor that cannot be dismissed nor can its causes. There are other factors at play but we can't pick and choose the ones we like and don't like because we are swayed by our emotion/like or dislike of someone.

 

[caseface]

It's obvious to me Lori has APD (antisocial Personality Disorder) and it may be she is a mix of being a psychopath, sociopath narcissist. Some or much of it may be learned or via life experience. "Among persons who display APD, those called psychopaths are distinguished by a nearly complete inability to form genuine emotional attachments to others; " Such seems to be the case with Charles, JJ and the dog Bailey. Plus, her being on her 5th marriage, well I see 5 red flags.

REGARDLESS - if your point is to feel sorry for her for her "supposed" childhood trauma, NAH... There is actually zero anecdote of that... if so perhaps she can bring it up at her trial.

Those with APD usually have trauma in their past: Abuse and neglect in childhood: relationship to personality disorder diagnoses. - PubMed - NCBI

No one feels sorry for Lori. At least I do not. But if we form a one sided view of her, we are not being objective and we will miss the truth behind her motives. We must understand a criminal in order to know where to look. And adding MH issues to her profile is not making it too easy. It's adding an additional piece to the puzzle. There is no one cause behind criminal acts. There are multiple. Mental Health is one such factor that cannot be dismissed nor can its causes. There are other factors at play but we can't pick and choose the ones we like and don't like because we are swayed by our emotion/like or dislike of someone.

 

[caseface]

Please do not correlate ACEs with sociopathy or violent adult behavior. It's a stigma I run into a lot and it sucks to have people assume that. I have an ACEs score of 7 out of 8 and I do not have a violent bone in my body. ACEs can cause a increased chance of health issues as an adult, such as COPD and diabetes. It can increase the chances that an adult will be the victim of violent crime or human trafficking. It increases likelihood of suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, and PTSD. There is no direct causal link between high ACEs scores and violent, sociopathic behavior.

Yes, childhood trauma and abuse can cause a person to become a sociopath or a psychopath. But ACEs and childhood trauma are not the same thing. ACEs measure things like parents having mental illness, a parent that is incarcerated, not having access to adequate food, etc. They're childhood adversities and are not always traumatic.

I suffered severe abuse and trauma from a young age. I'm not a sociopath. I'm actually an empath with severe complex PTSD, fibromyalgia, ADHD, anxiety, PCOS and depression (all of which are a result of said abuse).

I think people on this forum have been throwing around mental health/mental illness speculation a little too freely and it seems to have a tendency to go along with incorrect stereotypes or just flat out incorrect information about various mental illnesses. JMO.

(I am not attacking you or anything and I am def not defending Lori or Chad or anyone else who has done wrong. I just feel very strongly about this and have experienced first hand the discrimination that can come about due to belief in incorrect information about mental illnesses.)

I am trained is ACES and provide trainings. No one is saying that all people with trauma in their childhood or high scores (like you and me) will become a serial killer. What is true is that trauma can have a large impact on developing mental illness. And it is true that a majority of persons with sociopathy experienced childhood trauma. Again, there is nothign indicating that everyone with trauma is going to become a killer. But it is true to state that most killers have experienced childhood trauma. These are two different things. My best to you. I am also a survivor.

 

[caseface]

So are you saying Chad had a trauma filled childhood as well? Do you not see how he is neck deep and implicated in the murders and conspiracies to commit more?

I think greed and lust were bigger influences to these creeps than any kiddy trauma.

It is probable. Of course i cannot know for sure. Trauma occuring in childhood literally shapes the way the brain is formed. So, greed, lust, ability to utilize executive functioning to limit them, etc. are certainly all affected by it. It cannot be erased. Nevertheless is it only one factor. There are multiple others.

 

[indicolite22]

No one feels sorry for Lori. At least I do not. But if we form a one sided view of her, we are not being objective and we will miss the truth behind her motives. We must understand a criminal in order to know where to look.

Could we not wait for more information to come in before we assume that Lori's actions are the result of childhood trauma?

 

[caseface]

From the article: "Leading experts disagree on whether there are meaningful differences between the two conditions. "

Who are you to be a bigger expert than "Leading Experts"? Because someone typed out an article? Lori is unique.

"(1). It is believed that psychopathy is largely the result of “nature” (genetics) ~snip~At least 40 percent of all serial killers are unrepentant psychopaths." Not seeing Lori repenting much. But I'm sure an armchair quack will discover her hidden flaw.

I think perhaps you are taking what i am saying personally. my opinion is my opinion and i believe it can be a factor. i base that on evidence i have read and i tend to attribute trauma to situations as i have cognitive bias due to my own traumas. Based upon Lori's behaviors, i think it is likely she experienced childhood trauma. I accept your opinion. You may accept mine or not. I am okay with someone thinking differently from me. Abuse and neglect in childhood: relationship to personality disorder diagnoses. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[squareandrabbet]

I think in many states the husband at the time of birth is deemed legally the father. No matter of what DNA is. Making the husband responsible for child support. Crazy I know.

I feel like this is an attempt on the part of the state(s) to make sure that someone has a "father figure" to look towards for the support of the child.

Primarily because I feel it's possible that there have been other cases of neglected children, the facts about which people have thought/said "Gee, if only that child had a father listed on their birth certificate, A-B-C could have been avoided."

JMO, IMO, MOO.

Oh i would be certain that this is all in flight attendant training. And probably how to handle OTHER nervous/outspoken/difficult passengers rather than the person in cuffs. He IS in cuffs, so that controls some behavior!

RSBM

Any US LEO can and do travel in commercial airline cabins with weapons if required within the course of their duties.

Since the State of Idaho is now involved through a Governor's extradition request, it's possible that they would foot the bill for transport. They could fly her commercial but she has such a high public profile I wonder if they feel it would be more risky to do that. There's always Con Air I guess. MOO

I once flew with a U.S. Air Marshall across the aisle from me.

It was, IIRC, NYC-Miami; on a little nothing plane with no separate and discrete classes of seating. I knew said person was a Marshall because he was dressed like Hollywood Marshalls (lol); plus when he fit himself into his window seat, I could see the flash of the gun in his holster under his jacket. (Yes, I confess, I did look to see if the person next to him was wearing handcuffs, lol. I'm pretty sure he was not. It's also possible there weren't even 6 seats across in the seating arrangements; so no room for another Marshall on the other side.)

At least post-9/11, my takeaway from this has been that some flights must just old-fashioned have U.S. Marshalls cruising around, either randomly surveilling "just in case", or deadheading to get to another locale. (My "proof" for this; the flight attendant did greet the Marshall with every sign of pleasure and pre-acquaintance, and due to timing I'm pretty sure she had also seen him inadvertently flash his gun, lol.) Also, based upon knowledge and conversations of the doomed flights on 9/11, I'm pretty sure that flight attendants and pilots are pre-briefed when law enforcement/people with gun permits are on their flights, as well as where they will sit; because they might need to communicate/collaborate with said law enforcement official in case of an in-air emergency.

Clearly, I am not a pilot or flight attendant, so IMO, MOO, JMO.

 

[caseface]

My views on the probability of Lori's childhood trauma is based upon my opinions and my expertise in this area. It is conjecture that it could play a part in her behaviors. I am only having a conversation. FBI creates profiles all the time on criminals based upon prior information from other criminals because they need to understand the person to arrive at a motive. They were met with lots of skepticism but it is now common practice. I am putting it to rest now, however, as there seem to be some strong opinions; to me, it is conversation i have all the time at the office regarding clients. I apologize for making assumptions about my audience here or being insensitive.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

We stayed in Driggs when we went to Grand Tetons & Yellowstone. It's more rural/rustic and less "tourist-y" than Jackson, but still only a relatively short drive to the parks (through gorgeous scenery, so no hardship there). It's kind of tucked away in the mountains to the west of Grand Teton, so it'd be along the route if you were going from Rexburg to Grand Teton National Park / Yellowstone's South Gate

oh Thanks... was thinking it might be real touristry with winter sports stuff...

 

[yawningreyhound]

Okay, so this might be petty, but CD seems to be chunking up again since his juice squeezer has been in the pokey.

I thought CD'd slimmed down too throughout this ordeal!!!!!! Doncha wonder what his thought process is re those children? The black widow ensnared him in her web and he's wondering if he's going to survive....like I wonder if he's secretly wishing her bail remains at $5m.....

 

[squareandrabbet]

Right. Everyone in Bundy's Mormon ward in Salt Lake were convinced it was a big mistake.

MOO

As was Ann Rule at first, IIRC; and she was a trained LEO.

 

[yawningreyhound]

Did Lori know Chad's family before Tammy died.

Gosh, now I wish I could remember better but didn't we read somewhere it was suspected CD and LV were knowing each other well before their first podcast? I've searched and searched, I remember the line being " . . . leading us to believe they were involved with each other as early as 2012? aybe 2016?".....It's out there, I know it.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Good Afternoon, Y'all !

Subscribing to new thread, even though I have not finished the last one

 

[Trask]

It may just be an arbitrary date that is back far enough to be sure to get whatever is pertinent, but imagine if there is something from back in August? Not Lori so much, but Chad or (even more so) both of them. If they'd stayed there together or even in separate rooms, but at the same time, that would seem to indicate something. MOO.

BBM
ETA: The text was sent Jul 12, two weeks before the Aug 1 court order for records.

This brings to mind something that has been bugging me for weeks. Lori has a way of dropping hints of truth within her lies and something she said to CV's son in her texts left me with a cold feeling. The day after CV was shot she texted to his son, "I'm so sorry you are upset, I'm upset too. I'm waiting to hear back from the Medical examiner to make sense out of all this myself. Please be patient with me. It's a crushing situation all the way around. I'm still trying to process it too and what it means for JJ."

Not, 'how I will explain this to JJ' or 'how will I help JJ understand' but "what it means for JJ." Maybe I'm reading too much into it but that sounds to me like she was already making or had made plans regarding JJ. The text was sent before she knew about the beneficiary change for the life insurance so although KW thinks Lori did something to JJ as revenge for that, I'm left with the feeling that JJ's fate was sealed even before learning about the life insurance. Her plan to get rid of JJ was already in place as it has never been her MO to willingly give up custody. MOO



Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Good Morning WS friends...Marking my place with a link to Aex Cox autopsy that is
STILL PENDING
Home Page - OME Case Status

This is good! I looked up Marcus Moore...He used to play professional baseball for the Colorado Rockies. They are the same age. Hilarious comparison Baseball star successful national reporter and a dipweed "Cult Leader Self Proclaimed Prophet in the Last Days" MOO

i dunno... i just think Marcus' approach was much more non-threatening. As much as we/I absolutely love what Nate is doing... I would open my mouth to Marcus before Nate!!!

 

[ThinkoutLoud]

Alrighty, well, I shared what I thought may be helpful - I am often wrong and sometimes right- I continue to pray for this case and others but I think I'm too sensitive for WS. Thank you for letting me a part of your world - I hope and pray most of you have been wrong and that the kids are alive and well. I'll have to have a break for my own well being, Aloha from Kauai

I understand feelings of sensitivity and sometimes the right thing is to take a break. However, just so you know, I think sensitivity is a good thing. We should be cautious how we speak to each other and about others here. Why are any of us here? Because we are sensitive. We are sensitive to the apparent injustices that are taking place. We care.

Last night at my son’s choir performance they sang a beautiful song. I’m attaching a different rendition of it here. The lyrics say, “It takes a whole village to raise our children. It takes a whole village to raise one child. We all everyone must share the burden. We all everyone will share the joy.”

This case has garnered national attention and so the whole world is being called on to be the village for these children. We are sharing the burden. I believe the hearts, prayers, love, concern, efforts and attention of everyone in the “village” are needed here—especially the sensitive ones.
MOO

 

[sunflowerchick]

SBM
BBM

Please do not correlate ACEs with sociopathy or violent adult behavior. It's a stigma I run into a lot and it sucks to have people assume that. I have an ACEs score of 7 out of 8 and I do not have a violent bone in my body. ACEs can cause a increased chance of health issues as an adult, such as COPD and diabetes. It can increase the chances that an adult will be the victim of violent crime or human trafficking. It increases likelihood of suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, and PTSD. There is no direct causal link between high ACEs scores and violent, sociopathic behavior.

I suffered severe abuse and trauma from a young age. I'm not a sociopath. I'm actually an empath with severe complex PTSD, fibromyalgia, ADHD, anxiety, PCOS and depression (all of which are a result of said abuse).

(I am not attacking you or anything and I am def not defending Lori or Chad or anyone else who has done wrong. I just feel very strongly about this and have experienced first hand the discrimination that can come about due to belief in incorrect information about mental illnesses.)

With all due respect, by your own admission and experiences, ACEs causes mental health issues, so I am curious why you would acknowledge that it causes some (as in your case, depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc.) but would not cause others (as in sociopathy, APD, etc). Keep in mind, not all sociopaths or folks with personality disorders are violent either. In fact the percentage of violent offenders among ALL mental health patients is small.

The truth is mental health issues run across a range of degrees, behaviours, symptoms, etc. We do not quite understand (yet) what causes them, how to diagnose and how to treat as effectively as we could. I also believe there are mental illnesses that are not yet diagnosed or recognized. I feel for you regarding any stigma or misconceptions you face. Mental health is something near and dear to my heart. I strive to understand.

That all said, I DO think it is worth discussing in this case as LV clearly does not operate as a mentally healthy individual. I also think there very well COULD be a link between whatever is wrong with her and her childhood as several members of her family also appear to be involved. That said, I don't think I can go much further than that, because I don't think we are allowed to sleuth family.