Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #44

[vislaw]

I agree we may never know the complete truth. 100% agree all blame will be place on Alex, whether true or not.

Of course, we don't have any idea what evidence has been accumulated, what evidence is yet to be found and whether or not someone will confess. It sure appears that Lori and Chad were pretty incompetent at pulling off these murders and the mistakes they made are going to be revealed as numerous and significant.

Let's assume both will be represented with good and capable defense attorneys and consider the options for the defense. First and foremost, it is almost certain that neither will take the stand. Not only would they be exposed to withering cross examination, an attorney is prohibited from allowing his/her client to testify to knowing falsehoods and preparing an adequate defense is going to result in an inventory of problematic areas. The tiny sliver of evidence we know of now absolutely links Chad to the burial site and Lori to the children and Alex at the location and time of their disappearance and respective demises and there will certainly be more. This will leave their attorneys in the unenviable (and yet common position when representing a guilty person) of having very little affirmative evidence that can be presented at trial. Thus, the best choice of the few available will be the standard defense: 1) The state has the burden of proof and, 2) We need only raise reasonable doubt to win. As I evaluate this case, Alex as the fall guy will be fool's gold. Alex was Lori's brother and the evidence shows extraordinary interweaving of their lives and actions -- especially at the time of the murders. Moreover, Chad's conduct and actions also are interwoven with Alex tightly, including the extraordinary fact that their remains were buried on his property while he was present. Under these facts, pointing the finger at Alex as a murderer will necessarily tar both of them as well and subject both of them to conspiracy and the same penalty that would have befallen Alex, had he survived.

For Lori to now try and claim that Alex was the bad guy and she went along with it out of fear or coercion would not only be laughable, it would require her or Chad to testify to those facts. Without that testimony there is no way for counsel to present such a fairy tale to a jury -- a huge conundrum for the defense in this case. Indeed, Alex's death creates huge problems for them because he can't testify now and the evidence of his movements is damning. There are too many known facts, combined with too many provable lies and acts of deception for either to escape conviction for murder in my opinion.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

That is interesting. I have not heard that before. Are these commonly happening in the temple or told specifically to teenagers? Do you mind telling if the visit was told to you in order to get you to do something or not do something? I am not doubting your mom or trying to make light of it. I just wonder if it is a tradition or pattern that helps manage teenagers to stay in the faith at a time that when they might drift away. I know other churches have certain things that they do in order to do that. My last question would be if this is common, then why would Chad's visions be so special? Thanks for considering my questions and you don't have to answer them if they make you uncomfortable. I don't mean to put you on the spot.

The Amish have a phase of life that they call Rumspringa. Sortof a "testing period" for teens, with more freedoms to question, explore their beliefs, their hormones etc. Parents kind of treat it as a "to be Amish or to not be Amish" moment for their children.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

dbm grrrrr, d*mn computer ..

 

[Floppity]

<modsnip>
Can we please refrain from associating schizophrenia with “crazy”? Schizophrenic people suffer horribly, and are frequently victimized, presented as scary, while they’re in fact vulnerable. It’s a difficult life, from what I understand, and the inclination is frequently bent towards self-harm (to make it stop, among other things). Statements like this are ableist, though I have every confidence you have good intentions...it’s just an important thing to me to bring up as it can be damaging creating this kind of stigma & association in people’s minds.

Mental illness/“craziness” language is frequently our default when talking about people capable of these heinous things, but that perpetuates a false narrative, as we know people who have such illness are more frequently victim than perpetrator.

thank you sincerely for hearing me out.

 

[pizzaman12]

I could barely get through watching that interview because Ashleigh B. is obnoxious... but great info! I wonder how bad the food is? Ugh, probably inedible.

I hope the food is terrible

 

[DI_Isokawa]

The password was probably changed online and I remember reading here at WS that he had to sign an affidavit attesting to the fact that he did not willingly change it himself.

It was changed by telephone call. I've not seen any resolution to question of whether the call was made by Lori or Alex mimicking Charles (impressions were part of Alex's standup routine).

 

[vislaw]

I am wondering whether Alex, if still alive, would he still be Lori's defender?

Edited to be concise (i hope).

Indeed, the only long shot they might have had would be for Alex to testify in an attempt to exculpate his sister while falling on his own sword. We will never know whether he would have done so, and I personally doubt he would have because the opprobrium of being an admitted child killer would have been overwhelming. Not only would he become a target in prison, he would be loathed by everyone. I judge it would have been more likely he would have attempted to blame Chad and/or Lori to escape both responsibility and such shame. He could have had a somewhat plausible excuse by claiming he was an acolyte to them and following their orders.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Of course, we don't have any idea what evidence has been accumulated, what evidence is yet to be found and whether or not someone will confess. It sure appears that Lori and Chad were pretty incompetent at pulling off these murders and the mistakes they made are going to be revealed as numerous and significant.

Let's assume both will be represented with good and capable defense attorneys and consider the options for the defense. First and foremost, it is almost certain that neither will take the stand. Not only would they be exposed to withering cross examination, an attorney is prohibited from allowing his/her client to testify to knowing falsehoods and preparing an adequate defense is going to result in an inventory of problematic areas. The tiny sliver of evidence we know of now absolutely links Chad to the burial site and Lori to the children and Alex at the location and time of their disappearance and respective demises and there will certainly be more. This will leave their attorneys in the unenviable (and yet common position when representing a guilty person) of having very little affirmative evidence that can be presented at trial. Thus, the best choice of the few available will be the standard defense: 1) The state has the burden of proof and, 2) We need only raise reasonable doubt to win. As I evaluate this case, Alex as the fall guy will be fool's gold. Alex was Lori's brother and the evidence shows extraordinary interweaving of their lives and actions -- especially at the time of the murders. Moreover, Chad's conduct and actions also are interwoven with Alex tightly, including the extraordinary fact that their remains were buried on his property while he was present. Under these facts, pointing the finger at Alex as a murderer will necessarily tar both of them as well and subject both of them to conspiracy and the same penalty that would have befallen Alex, had he survived.

For Lori to now try and claim that Alex was the bad guy and she went along with it out of fear or coercion would not only be laughable, it would require her or Chad to testify to those facts. Without that testimony there is no way for counsel to present such a fairy tale to a jury -- a huge conundrum for the defense in this case. Indeed, Alex's death creates huge problems for them because he can't testify now and the evidence of his movements is damning. There are too many known facts, combined with too many provable lies and acts of deception for either to escape conviction for murder in my opinion.

With all the valuable phone surveillance they have on Alex for September, do you think they were up to speed on surveillance in December? Expecially when Tammy's body was exhumed?

I keep hoping this. However, they did not finally find/pounce on them in Hawaii for two more months.
Do you think they really knew where they were earlier?

 

[ReadyorNot]

It was changed by telephone call. I've not seen any resolution to question of whether the call was made by Lori or Alex mimicking Charles (impressions were part of Alex's standup routine).

Please provide a source for that because I know of no company that would allow a password change by phone.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Indeed, the only long shot they might have had would be for Alex to testify in an attempt to exculpate his sister while falling on his own sword. We will never know whether he would have done so, and I personally doubt he would have because the opprobrium of being an admitted child killer would have been overwhelming. Not only would he become a target in prison, he would be loathed by everyone. I judge it would have been more likely he
would have attempted to blame Chad and/or Lori to escape both responsibility and such shame. He could have had a somewhat plausible excuse by claiming he was an acolyte to them and following their orders.

Can you imagine being in J and B Cox's shoes right now?

Not that I care. Our nuts are not far from the tree.

 

[pizzaman12]

I agree with you. The defense attorneys will have to pin it on someone who can't defend himself, although the phone pings aren't helping him.

Thank you for your bravery and contribution to this conversation. You have a completely different perspective on parts of this case and it's very helpful!

I'm obviously not a defense attorney but can MM persuade LV to place the blame on AC if he knows that wasn't what actually transpired? That's probably a very basic legal question so I apologize in advance.

 

[lacegrl130]

I am sorry, but how exactly would she end up buried in Chad's backyard if she was handed off to someone at Yellowstone? No way, no how.

I know. This is a bit out there. Too many people in a conspiracy - I always think Occam’s Razor...

 

[CSIDreamer]

If as Jankee says, he was seeking counseling. That could indicate he was experiencing some sort of guilt, although I'm not clear when that conversation took place (before or after Tylee & JJ's death).

We also don't know how deeply invested he was in the bunk theology. MG told us she went to AxC and asked what happened to JJ. He replied "you don't want to know".

What's your take on his reply?

Jankee stated, if I recall correctly, no contact with Alex since August 2019. So that would be before the murders of Tylee, JJ, and Tammy. Jmo

 

[vislaw]

With all the valuable phone surveillance they have on Alex for September, do you think they were up to speed on surveillance in December? Expecially when Tammy's body was exhumed?

I keep hoping this. However, they did not finally find/pounce on them in Hawaii for two more months.
Do you think they really knew where they were earlier?

It is interesting to speculate and based on what we know now it is almost certain they had a great deal of evidence. However, it is also seems clear that, for whatever reason, the cell phone analysis showing Alex on the property was not completed until recently. You can be certain they accumulated a mountain of evidence after September. I believe everyone can rest easy and have confidence they both are never going to be free.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Websleuthers minds are a veritable treasure trove of expertise, intuition , research and questioning - this case has brought out some outstanding thinking.

You are all incredible. I read an entry and by the time I think of something relevant, it’s been relayed more clearly and concisely and sorted. The amt of detailed research, cross checking and discourse is nothing short of amazing.

Thank you to all who carry burdens of loss and heart ache and for sharing your strength, hope and experience here, surely I am one of many here who stand beside you and hold space with respect and reverence for the heartache you carry, namaste.
Also, best to all who are trudging through this who knew Chad or others involved personally.

Now back to reading a long confusing and eye opening article about brainwashing as relevant to cults vs POW’S - principles and techniques they share and those they don’t and what will stand up in court.
These defense lawyers have their work cut out for them. I sense religious delusion might be front and center.
How did Lori get to where she is? Chad?
When MG spoke of Lori in Nate’s interview, her hands told a compassionate story when delicately discussing what might happen if Lori realizes the horror of what she has done. I felt MG attempt to empathizing which is beyond our Realm of understanding.

Varying articles point out that religious delusions are believed to be totally connected to mental illness perhaps, and specifically, schizophrenia. Many of you probably already know this.

This is one article yet there are other more confusing reflecting on court cases ie Patty Hearse etc. and comparing them to POW’s and the history of admissible vs non and what needs to be established it to be considered
Psychological characteristics of religious delusions

Thanks!!

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I wish we had a separate link to court docs. I find it a challenge to find the relevant post.

hmmm. I think we have had to dance around these docs, and not post them here. But they are "out there". We don't truly catagorize MBP as a POI, right?

 

[DI_Isokawa]

Please provide a source for that because I know of no company that would allow a password change by phone.

Attached. From Justin Lum. Email clearly states it was a call. Not my experience either, but there you are.

 

[vislaw]

I'm obviously not a defense attorney but can MM persuade LV to place the blame on AC if he knows that wasn't what actually transpired? That's probably a very basic legal question so I apologize in advance.

Never apologize for asking questions here. Besides, that is an excellent question to raise. Defense lawyers have approaches when dealing with defendants who are guilty. Typically a lawyer will commence by warning a client to not tell him anything unless and until he asks. It is not uncommon for a defense attorney to talk in hypotheticals such as, "you know, Lori, if you were acting under duress it might help your defense." That may seem disingenuous, but it is technically appropriate as long as the attorney does not knowingly suborn perjury. The problem with this type of approach is that he can't "help" Lori invent such a story without Lori being willing to testify. She can spin all the tales she wants, including space aliens, but the defense must have proof through either her testimony or that of someone else before making such a claim against Alex. MM or whomever represents her will recognize this is a loser and the best shot would be a confession and a plea deal.

 

[wnk]

No, someone within the LDS Church

In the LDS church, the local "clergy" -- the bishop -- is a volunteer from the ward's geographic area who serves in that capacity for a few years at a time, with no formal training in theology or counseling. Since LV only lived in the Rexburg area for a few months, I doubt she'd have developed a strong relationship with her bishop in that time (particularly if she & her "group" were trying to keep their more "out there" beliefs under wraps), and I suspect any local LDS wards are going to be trying to distance themselves from having anything to do with this offshoot group right now.

So no, I'd be very surprised if she was meeting with any LDS "clergy"

MOO

 

[sunflowerchick]

Please provide a source for that because I know of no company that would allow a password change by phone.

Unfortunately you're misinformed. If the caller can verify personal information, it is allowed in most businesses.