Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #15

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  • #681
Febuary 15,2020
Post Register Idaho Falls Idaho

Why haven’t Chad and Lori been arrested?

I saw that @Gardener1850 posted this a couple pages back and it has some very interesting scenarios to discuss MOO

Scenario 1: Chad and Lori were not actively responsible for the disappearance of Tylee and J.J., but they did not alert authorities when the children went missing.

Possible charges: Perjury for giving false information. Police say Vallow and Daybell “indicated (J.J) was staying with a family friend in Arizona.” Rexburg police said they investigated and did not find that to be true. According to Idaho law, this crime is considered a misdemeanor. There is no Idaho law requiring parents to alert authorities when children go missing.

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove Lori provided false information concerning J.J.’s whereabouts.

Famous similar case: In a case that received national attention, Caylee Anthony’s mother, Casey Anthony, never reported her daughter missing. “Caylee’s Law,” which has been enacted in 10 states, makes it a felony for parents to fail to report their child as missing. Anthony was eventually acquitted of all charges except four misdemeanor counts of providing false information to law enforcement. Anthony was sentenced to one year and $1,000 for each misdemeanor count, for a total of four years in prison and $4,000 in fines. Caylee’s Law does not exist in Idaho.

Scenario 2: Lori and Chad have hidden the children.

Possible charges: Contempt of court

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove contempt of court. On Jan. 25, law enforcement in Princeville, Hawaii, served Vallow with a court order demanding that she “physically produce Tylee and J.J. to the Idaho Department of Welfare in Rexburg, Idaho, or to the Rexburg Police within five days of being served with the order.” Vallow did not comply with that order and could now be found by a Madison County judge to be in contempt of court. Per Idaho law, a misdemeanor for contempt carries a penalty of an up to $5,000 fine, a maximum of five days in jail, or both.

Famous similar case: In Baltimore City Department of Social Services v. Bouknight, Jacqueline L. Bouknight, of Baltimore, was ordered to produce her child in court. She claimed to have left her son with a friend but would not reveal anything more. In a case that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Bouknight claimed that forcing her to disclose her son’s location violated her Fifth Amendment right not to self-incriminate. The Supreme Court ruled the Fifth Amendment does not “protect a custodian from refusing to produce his or her child pursuant to a court order.” Despite this ruling, Bouknight refused to produce her son. A Baltimore judge continued to find Bouknight in contempt of court for seven years; she spent those seven years in jail. After that, she was released and has never been convicted for further charges regarding her son. Her son has never been seen since.

Scenario 3: Chad and/or Lori are responsible for the death of Tylee and J.J., but police cannot find their bodies.

Possible charges: Murder

Evidence: According to Thomas A. DiBiase, a former federal homicide prosecutor and expert on “no body” murder cases, in cases when there is no body but police believe a murder was convicted, evidence is most likely to come from forensic evidence such as blood, hair, or fingerprints, confessions to family or friends, or confessions to police. When none of those are available, Alton D. Kenney an attorney and former prosecutor who has gotten convictions on two “no body” cases, said it is possible to prove victims are dead through what he calls “negative inference.” This involves proving all expected normal routines are not being met. For example, a teenager may suddenly stop all social media activity, stop speaking to all friends and relatives, stop continuing to pursue life milestones such as getting a driver’s license or applying for a job. These negative inferences may convince a jury that a missing individual has died. Then, the court can prove someone is responsible for that death. According to Kenney, however, cases involving negative inference take a long time to prove and police may wait a full year before bringing charges.

Famous similar case: More than 50 people have been convicted of murder without a body being found. However, when police lack forensic evidence or a confession, it becomes more difficult. When Susan Powell went missing in 2009, her husband Josh Powell claimed she had abandoned the family. Despite a mountain of strange circumstances surrounding Josh, he was never charged with her murder. In 2012, Josh killed himself and his two sons. Since Susan’s body has never been recovered, she has still not been declared dead.

Charges involving the deaths of Charles Vallow, Tammy Daybell, or Alex Cox: All three deaths are still under investigation. Authorities are still waiting on autopsy results for Tammy Daybell and Cox. The lack of charges may mean authorities have not found evidence as of yet to prove Chad or Lori were involved. Autopsy results may provide more information.
 
  • #682
Febuary 15,2020
Post Register Idaho Falls Idaho

Why haven’t Chad and Lori been arrested?

I saw that @Gardener1850 posted this a couple pages back and it has some very interesting scenarios to discuss MOO

Scenario 1: Chad and Lori were not actively responsible for the disappearance of Tylee and J.J., but they did not alert authorities when the children went missing.

Possible charges: Perjury for giving false information. Police say Vallow and Daybell “indicated (J.J) was staying with a family friend in Arizona.” Rexburg police said they investigated and did not find that to be true. According to Idaho law, this crime is considered a misdemeanor. There is no Idaho law requiring parents to alert authorities when children go missing.

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove Lori provided false information concerning J.J.’s whereabouts.

Famous similar case: In a case that received national attention, Caylee Anthony’s mother, Casey Anthony, never reported her daughter missing. “Caylee’s Law,” which has been enacted in 10 states, makes it a felony for parents to fail to report their child as missing. Anthony was eventually acquitted of all charges except four misdemeanor counts of providing false information to law enforcement. Anthony was sentenced to one year and $1,000 for each misdemeanor count, for a total of four years in prison and $4,000 in fines. Caylee’s Law does not exist in Idaho.

Scenario 2: Lori and Chad have hidden the children.

Possible charges: Contempt of court

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove contempt of court. On Jan. 25, law enforcement in Princeville, Hawaii, served Vallow with a court order demanding that she “physically produce Tylee and J.J. to the Idaho Department of Welfare in Rexburg, Idaho, or to the Rexburg Police within five days of being served with the order.” Vallow did not comply with that order and could now be found by a Madison County judge to be in contempt of court. Per Idaho law, a misdemeanor for contempt carries a penalty of an up to $5,000 fine, a maximum of five days in jail, or both.

Famous similar case: In Baltimore City Department of Social Services v. Bouknight, Jacqueline L. Bouknight, of Baltimore, was ordered to produce her child in court. She claimed to have left her son with a friend but would not reveal anything more. In a case that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Bouknight claimed that forcing her to disclose her son’s location violated her Fifth Amendment right not to self-incriminate. The Supreme Court ruled the Fifth Amendment does not “protect a custodian from refusing to produce his or her child pursuant to a court order.” Despite this ruling, Bouknight refused to produce her son. A Baltimore judge continued to find Bouknight in contempt of court for seven years; she spent those seven years in jail. After that, she was released and has never been convicted for further charges regarding her son. Her son has never been seen since.

Scenario 3: Chad and/or Lori are responsible for the death of Tylee and J.J., but police cannot find their bodies.

Possible charges: Murder

Evidence: According to Thomas A. DiBiase, a former federal homicide prosecutor and expert on “no body” murder cases, in cases when there is no body but police believe a murder was convicted, evidence is most likely to come from forensic evidence such as blood, hair, or fingerprints, confessions to family or friends, or confessions to police. When none of those are available, Alton D. Kenney an attorney and former prosecutor who has gotten convictions on two “no body” cases, said it is possible to prove victims are dead through what he calls “negative inference.” This involves proving all expected normal routines are not being met. For example, a teenager may suddenly stop all social media activity, stop speaking to all friends and relatives, stop continuing to pursue life milestones such as getting a driver’s license or applying for a job. These negative inferences may convince a jury that a missing individual has died. Then, the court can prove someone is responsible for that death. According to Kenney, however, cases involving negative inference take a long time to prove and police may wait a full year before bringing charges.

Famous similar case: More than 50 people have been convicted of murder without a body being found. However, when police lack forensic evidence or a confession, it becomes more difficult. When Susan Powell went missing in 2009, her husband Josh Powell claimed she had abandoned the family. Despite a mountain of strange circumstances surrounding Josh, he was never charged with her murder. In 2012, Josh killed himself and his two sons. Since Susan’s body has never been recovered, she has still not been declared dead.

Charges involving the deaths of Charles Vallow, Tammy Daybell, or Alex Cox: All three deaths are still under investigation. Authorities are still waiting on autopsy results for Tammy Daybell and Cox. The lack of charges may mean authorities have not found evidence as of yet to prove Chad or Lori were involved. Autopsy results may provide more information.

Wow, that Bouknight case (and lack of concomitant punishment) is pretty upsetting.

Not to mention chilling.

I should think they've got an excellent case to prove #3; though C&L wouldn't be worried about that currently either, as they think they and the world will be beyond the reach of courts after July 22, 2020, well short of the potential year the article says it could take to charge them for the kids' disappearance with "a no-body". :(
 
  • #683
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  • #684
Lol I've been trying to play catch up and was on 33 when I asked. I see now it's not to be talked about as I reached the current end of the thread :oops: my apologies... I'm trying to figure out who the other initials belong to that were mentioned o_O

On which thread number, there are so many now I can barely keep up?
 
  • #685
Febuary 15,2020
Post Register Idaho Falls Idaho

Why haven’t Chad and Lori been arrested?

I saw that @Gardener1850 posted this a couple pages back and it has some very interesting scenarios to discuss MOO

Scenario 1: Chad and Lori were not actively responsible for the disappearance of Tylee and J.J., but they did not alert authorities when the children went missing.

Possible charges: Perjury for giving false information. Police say Vallow and Daybell “indicated (J.J) was staying with a family friend in Arizona.” Rexburg police said they investigated and did not find that to be true. According to Idaho law, this crime is considered a misdemeanor. There is no Idaho law requiring parents to alert authorities when children go missing.

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove Lori provided false information concerning J.J.’s whereabouts.

Famous similar case: In a case that received national attention, Caylee Anthony’s mother, Casey Anthony, never reported her daughter missing. “Caylee’s Law,” which has been enacted in 10 states, makes it a felony for parents to fail to report their child as missing. Anthony was eventually acquitted of all charges except four misdemeanor counts of providing false information to law enforcement. Anthony was sentenced to one year and $1,000 for each misdemeanor count, for a total of four years in prison and $4,000 in fines. Caylee’s Law does not exist in Idaho.

Scenario 2: Lori and Chad have hidden the children.

Possible charges: Contempt of court

Evidence police would need to charge Lori or Chad: Police likely have enough evidence to prove contempt of court. On Jan. 25, law enforcement in Princeville, Hawaii, served Vallow with a court order demanding that she “physically produce Tylee and J.J. to the Idaho Department of Welfare in Rexburg, Idaho, or to the Rexburg Police within five days of being served with the order.” Vallow did not comply with that order and could now be found by a Madison County judge to be in contempt of court. Per Idaho law, a misdemeanor for contempt carries a penalty of an up to $5,000 fine, a maximum of five days in jail, or both.

Famous similar case: In Baltimore City Department of Social Services v. Bouknight, Jacqueline L. Bouknight, of Baltimore, was ordered to produce her child in court. She claimed to have left her son with a friend but would not reveal anything more. In a case that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Bouknight claimed that forcing her to disclose her son’s location violated her Fifth Amendment right not to self-incriminate. The Supreme Court ruled the Fifth Amendment does not “protect a custodian from refusing to produce his or her child pursuant to a court order.” Despite this ruling, Bouknight refused to produce her son. A Baltimore judge continued to find Bouknight in contempt of court for seven years; she spent those seven years in jail. After that, she was released and has never been convicted for further charges regarding her son. Her son has never been seen since.

Scenario 3: Chad and/or Lori are responsible for the death of Tylee and J.J., but police cannot find their bodies.

Possible charges: Murder

Evidence: According to Thomas A. DiBiase, a former federal homicide prosecutor and expert on “no body” murder cases, in cases when there is no body but police believe a murder was convicted, evidence is most likely to come from forensic evidence such as blood, hair, or fingerprints, confessions to family or friends, or confessions to police. When none of those are available, Alton D. Kenney an attorney and former prosecutor who has gotten convictions on two “no body” cases, said it is possible to prove victims are dead through what he calls “negative inference.” This involves proving all expected normal routines are not being met. For example, a teenager may suddenly stop all social media activity, stop speaking to all friends and relatives, stop continuing to pursue life milestones such as getting a driver’s license or applying for a job. These negative inferences may convince a jury that a missing individual has died. Then, the court can prove someone is responsible for that death. According to Kenney, however, cases involving negative inference take a long time to prove and police may wait a full year before bringing charges.

Famous similar case: More than 50 people have been convicted of murder without a body being found. However, when police lack forensic evidence or a confession, it becomes more difficult. When Susan Powell went missing in 2009, her husband Josh Powell claimed she had abandoned the family. Despite a mountain of strange circumstances surrounding Josh, he was never charged with her murder. In 2012, Josh killed himself and his two sons. Since Susan’s body has never been recovered, she has still not been declared dead.

Charges involving the deaths of Charles Vallow, Tammy Daybell, or Alex Cox: All three deaths are still under investigation. Authorities are still waiting on autopsy results for Tammy Daybell and Cox. The lack of charges may mean authorities have not found evidence as of yet to prove Chad or Lori were involved. Autopsy results may provide more information.
Well, this doesn’t make me feel better. I’d never heard of Bouknight.
 
  • #686
If the CPS gains custody of JJ & Tylee and guardianship is granted to the W's, why wouldn't kidnapping charges be filed on LVD, if she doesn't turn them over to CPS?
 
  • #687
I understand and I apologize if my post was overly raw.
No apologies needed. Just my opinion... if you make that poll happen you will not like the result. I will not like the result. Nobody that wants this to end well will like the result of the poll. I hope I didn't offend you, that was far from my intent.
 
  • #688
The Skelton brothers case is similar to this case, in that John Skelton claimed he was hiding the boys to protect them from their mother. He was eventually convicted of false imprisonment.

LE does have options, but they will certainly want to take their time to build the strongest case possible.

Missing in Michigan "The Skelton Brothers Story"
 
  • #689
I understand what you're saying and agree. MOO

This is more of a statement to the one you agreed with.
Randy Bachman is a Mormon, so possibly. :)

Didn’t know that fact. Also, regardless of fringe dwellers, this is not about mainstream Mormon or (LDS).
 
  • #690
DBM
 
  • #691
Reminder. It's 8:55 Justin time.

Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix

ALEX COX’S MARRIAGE CERT: Tonight at 9PM MST - new details on the marriage between Alex Cox and Zulema Pastenes. How Lori Vallow’s brother got married two weeks before he was found dead in his wife’s home. Hear from the owner of the Vegas wedding chapel.
 
  • #692
But it does beg the question...WHY did LE begin to investigate her death before knowing anything about the missing children OR the events in AZ. Something made them to change her death to suspicous...WHY WHY??
Well, let's say LE, despite what many think, did not believe AC shot Charles in self defense. If they were continuing to investigate AC and Lori, they probably found evidence of Lori's affair with Chad. When Tammy died, that would have certainly raised red flags with Chandler LE, and could have led them to call Rexburg LE.
 
  • #693
The Skelton brothers case is similar to this case, in that John Skelton claimed he was hiding the boys to protect them from their mother. He was eventually convicted of false imprisonment.

LE does have options, but they will certainly want to take their time to build the strongest case possible.

Missing in Michigan "The Skelton Brothers Story"
One significant difference though is that Lori and Chad aren't claiming anything. At least no custodial/protection angle. We have nothing from them on WHY the kids are missing. They apparently have told LE where the kids are, but when they look into it it's proven a lie. Now they've lawyered up and gone mum on the issue. The rumor that persistently keeps circulating that they're hidden because of a custody dispute is just that - a rumor. One refuted by LE.
 
  • #694
One significant difference though is that Lori and Chad aren't claiming anything. At least no custodial/protection angle. We have nothing from them on WHY the kids are missing. They apparently have told LE where the kids are, but when they look into it it's proven a lie. Now they've lawyered up and gone mum on the issue. The rumor that persistently keeps circulating that they're hidden because of a custody dispute is just that - a rumor. One refuted by LE.

Someone refuted it again last night on Dateline; though precisely whom, I can't remember.

Also, we know from Keith Morrison that even if we didn't already suspect it, that NBC has got multiple lawyers reviewing these broadcasts before they air, so there's that added extra layer of reliability.
 
  • #695
This is more of a statement to the one you agreed with.


Didn’t know that fact. Also, regardless of fringe dwellers, this is not about mainstream Mormon or (LDS).

Technically I think he might be an ex now, but he definitely was at one time.
 
  • #696
Well, let's say LE, despite what many think, did not believe AC shot Charles in self defense. If they were continuing to investigate AC and Lori, they probably found evidence of Lori's affair with Chad. When Tammy died, that would have certainly raised red flags with Chandler LE, and could have led them to call Rexburg LE.

Possibly a premeditation or conspiracy to commit homicide charge? Was that on the search warrant at JJ’s school?
 
  • #697
Question...if one or more of the kids' remains had at one point been in the storage unit (like in a bin), would cadaver dogs be able to pick up on the scent even if they were no longer there? I keep feeling like LE knows more than they are letting on, which is possibly why they don't seem to think the kids could be alive, and possibly that K&L were told something along these lines?
 
  • #698
Reminder. It's 8:55 Justin time.

Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix

ALEX COX’S MARRIAGE CERT: Tonight at 9PM MST - new details on the marriage between Alex Cox and Zulema Pastenes. How Lori Vallow’s brother got married two weeks before he was found dead in his wife’s home. Hear from the owner of the Vegas wedding chapel.
I'm pretty sure they had that segment last night... At least I remember linking to the story wherein he covered those very topics. It happened while the Dateline special was airing, so maybe you missed it? I'll see if I can't find it...

ETA - found it:

Marriage license shows Lori Vallow's brother got married 2 weeks before his death

Alex and ZP came alone to be married. No witnesses except security guard and minister.
 
  • #699
I'm pretty sure they had that segment last night... At least I remember linking to the story wherein he covered those very topics. It happened while the Dateline special was airing, so maybe you missed it? I'll see if I can't find it...

ETA - found it:

Seems like a good time to run a concurrent story...to build the ratings. Unfortunately, in journalism, this is their reality.
 
  • #700
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