If Death was accidental then why the elaborate cover up?

BeeBee said:
The "staging" aspect has always been because it was thought the Ramseys did it and staged it to look like an intruder. IF a real intruder did it, it wouldn't be "staging", it would be torturing. An intruder wouldn't try to stage it to look like an intruder. Right?
Yup.

Also, if the Ramsey's did it, why keep the body in the house? Especially if you are forging a ransom note. Why not dump the body out in the woods, then come back and say she's missing?

Especially if the car is in the garage, and you can put the body in without anybody noticing. And with Christmas, nobody is going to be out anyway.
 
The garage door made a racket, the neighbours would have heard it for sure.

The houses are very close.
 
narlacat said:
The garage door made a racket, the neighbours would have heard it for sure.

The houses are very close.
I disagree with "very close"

The pictures show a decent sized yard.
 
Just going on what people tell me Amraann, people that have been there all say the same thing...'I didn't realise how close the neighbours were'.

Edit to add, when I say people I mean people that post here.
Camper is one that comes to mind off the top of my head but there are quite a few others that have been to the house.
 
Seeker: Obviously, we haven't heard Karr's full confession, but since this
wacko keeps insisting it was "an accident", I'd love to know how garrotting
a 6 year old and hitting her over the head with a blunt object is an *accident.*

I never believed the intruder theory, but if by some miracle, it turned out
to be an intruder who killed Jonbenet, I'll bet my bottom dollar it's not
John Karr.
 
Seeker said:
OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time?
He didn't accidentally kill anyone. He's telling a whopper. If he broke in and molested her and accidentally killed her, he would run for the hills as fast as he could, not spend however long composing this crazy ransom note.

The ransom note is a red herring written by the Ramsey's in order to support the intruder theory.
 
"The ransom note is a red herring written by the Ramsey's in order to support the intruder theory."

That's what the FBI said.

"The 'staging' aspect has always been because it was thought the Ramseys did it and staged it to look like an intruder. IF a real intruder did it, it wouldn't be 'staging', it would be torturing."

Except that the evidence for staging is pretty irrefutable: a strangulation that doesn't damage the internals of the neck? Wrist ties that are so wide and loose they can slip off? A pedophile who hardly injures her vagina?

"An intruder wouldn't try to stage it to look like an intruder. Right?"

That's what I said!
 
otto said:
Let's suppose that Karr is the guy and it was his intention to take JonBenet out of the house with him. He goes in the house when the family is out, snoops around, gathers information, writes the retarded note, puts everything back where he found it, goes to the basement and waits for the family to go to sleep. After he thinks it's safe, he goes upstairs, leaves the note on the stairs where the parents would find it, goes to JonBenet's room and either shocks her into complaince or entices her to go downstairs with a promise of something. He's been fantasizing about her for hours and once he sees her, he can't contain himself any longer so he takes her downstairs to where he was hiding and assaults her, except she won't stay still. He then hits her in the head to control her. After, he realizes that the blow to the head was too much and rather than carry a limp girl out of the house, he decides he's overdone it and kills her. Nothing is staged anymore.
~~~I was about to post virtually this same posibility. Then I found and read your theory. Your theory is the only way I can invision JBR's murder by ANY intruder... The intruder entering while the family is gone gives him time to write both the 1st draft and the final copy of the RN. The amount of money selected in the RN was on a check stub in JR's office. (correct?) The intruder would have had plenty of time to snoop around before writing the note, to find all items used in the attempted abduction and ultimately used in the murder. The strangulation could also have been means of control from the beginning and not only as the method of murder. He could have bopped her on the head with the flashlight to stun her, found that she soiled herself, cleaned her up before molesting her, then opened the new pack of size 12 undies and put a pair on her before removing her from the house. After it was realized that she was going to die anyway and that it was going to be very difficult to remove her body, the abduction idea was abandoned and he killed her by strangulation.

As for the tea bag, glass and pineapple in the bowl and pineapple found in JBR's contents autopsy: If PR removed the bowl from the dishwasher...her finger prints would be on the bowl. BR gets the bowl out of the cabinet and puts pineapple in it when JBR comes downstairs hungry. He's drinking a cup of hot tea...He puts the empty cup in the dishwasher and the teabag in an empty glass on the table. (My youngest son fixes himself a cup of hot tea like that every time he feels poorly...especially with a sore throat and so do I. We reuse the teabag for a 2nd cup of tea at a later time.) Both children go back to bed. The next day, the R parents tell BR to never mention that he fixed JBR a snack the night before, as that will cause him to be questioned more intensely.

They have lost one child and just want to protect the other from unnessary pain. That would explain PR saying she knew nothing about the bowl or the pineapple... Deny it to avoid implicating BR or JR or herself in any further questioning process. (or she could have been so drugged up she really didn't remember buying pineapple or ever having that bowl!) Once you've said something to detectives and realize it was wrong, it seems to me to be a huge strike against you to correct yourself...even if you are innocent of the crime. As far as this idea goes...PR could have even fixed the hot tea for BR and the pineapple for JBR herself and been so drugged out of her mind after the discovery of JBR's body that she screwed up that whole line of questioning and was advised to just let the error ride... Can you imagine the shock the lady was in at the time?

JMK was quoted as having said in an email to a friend, that he was ready to grab a case of pineapple and escape from the foreign country he was in to another foreign country. I read it on WS's or Forums for Justice. Sorry, I can't remember which. Do any of you remember hearing about this quote from one of his emails? I thought it was ironic he selected pineapple as his fruit of choice...

I haven't come to any conclusions as to who I think killed JBR. In the past and now, I continue to bounce back and forth from one side of the fence to the other...I am just VERY thankful that JMK is now in custody and hopefully, will never damage anyone in the future. At least he is off the streets! Also, I hope that this new interest in the case will conclude in the conviction of JBR's real murderer...whoever 'it' is...
 
BeeBee said:
The "staging" aspect has always been because it was thought the Ramseys did it and staged it to look like an intruder. IF a real intruder did it, it wouldn't be "staging", it would be torturing. An intruder wouldn't try to stage it to look like an intruder. Right?

Then why leave the three page note pointing away from the Ramseys?
 
Originally Posted by RiverRat
Then why leave the three page note pointing away from the Ramseys?
Exactly. There is only one reason that a person with the intent to kidnap someone for ransom and that is because their only real purpose of kidnapping that someone is for money. If their intent was to kidnap someone so they could molest them and play sicko perverted torture "games" with them, they don't intend to give that someone back... they will either run away with that person in hopes of keeping them permanently (as was the case with the kidnapping of Steven Stayner), they will eventually kill the person and dump the body, or they will leave that person somewhere where someone will eventually find them and get them home while they make their getaway. I'm certain (personally, that is) that this is the reason the FBI is convinced that the ransom note was written as a ruse to point toward an intruder.

In order for an intruder theory to hold up, one would have to believe that the intruder's intention was to eventually give JonBenet back for money, and in order to believe that, one would also have to believe that they didn't want to get caught in the act so they could collect the ransom. If this intruder was a child molester (which is pretty irrefutable in order to believe the intruder theory), and they were so "turned on" once they had seen JBR and taken her from her bed that they molested her before removing her from the house, it would have been a quickie session in order to temporarily satiate themselves because the longer they stay in the house, the greater their risk of getting caught... there would have been no elaborate drawn out molestation with perverted strangulation, no drawing of a heart on the hand, no Barbie nightie at the scene to do with whatever their perverted fantasies dictated, no time spent constructing a garrote with the tools at hand.

An intruder who's intent was to kidnap her would want to get her out of the house as quickly as possible... once they're off with her and considers they're safe, there is all the time in the world to do whatever perverted and repulsive things they want. To kidnap her for any reason with the least risk of getting caught would be to get her and get her out as quickly as possible. If the intruder was so bold as to go through the house, find which room was hers, take her from her bed, and take her back downstairs, they are certainly bold enough to walk out the door with her. An intruder bold enough to do all these things they would have had to have done in order to get her back to the basement (which would risk being caught by a family member who would have known they were in the house for a sinister reason) NOT be bold enough to remove her from the house by just walking right out the door with her where they MIGHT be seen by someone who would have no idea that they had no business having her with them.

One could argue that if they were so bold enough to break in, move through the house, take JBR from her bed, etc. than they would also be bold enough to do their evil deads in all their disgusting and time consuming glory right there in the house. BUT, then there would have been no reason to leave a ransom note because as said in the beginning, the only reason to kidnap someone for ransom is because of the money, which would mean the overriding need to get the victim out of the house without being caught.

It's always been the ransom note (even regardless what it said) that has been the single factor that made me believe right from the beginning that someone in the Ramsey family was guilty of something in JBR's murder. I still have a very difficult time believing that either JR or Patsy put the garrote on their daughter and pulled it tight or bashed her head so hard, so my theory is that they were covering up for something ELSE that would have been discovered about them or someone ELSE who did those things. I always found it odd that either JR or PR would even know what a garrote was or knew how to fashion and employ one, but certainly, stranger things have happened.

I believe that just as the FBI does that the ransom note was staging to point to an intruder... but it was over-staging just as the mombo sized panties was over-staging.

The mombo panties also lead me to believe that the cover up had to do with sexual molestation, which did occur, many experts claim had been occurring for some time by someone, and one or more of the Ramsey's knew about it.

There is simply no reason whatsoever to leave a RANSOM note other than to point away from the Ramsey's and toward an intruder. No real kidnapper-for-ransom writes and even DRAFTS the ransom note AFTER they've gotten into the house and with the occupants' own pen and paper. It is absolutely clear that the ransom note was an afterthought once the alleged intruder got in the house, therefore, it was never their intent to kidnap JBR for ransom. WHOEVER wrote the ransom note knew it was ruse, and a ruse with the INTENT of pointing toward an intruder... which an intruder would have no reason whatsoever to do.

This said, the answer to the question "why would an intruder leave a ransom note that points to an intruder" is that THEY WOULDN'T.

------------

I'm starting to get the feeling that I may be already in first place as the author of the Most Long-Winded Posts Ever Award. :D This forum is highly addicting and should carry a warning label at the very least... I may even write my Congressman about this. ;)
 
You said it, doc!

If it really was an intruder, they wouldn't have to stage it to look like an intruder.
 
I found it odd that 3 years after her death, P & J told LK they did not yet know if their daughter had been sexually assulted.

Scandi
 
RiverRat said:
Then why leave the three page note pointing away from the Ramseys?
i think she means that an intruder doesnt have to stage it to look like an intruder cuz they are one..however, if u want to stage something to point away from yourself that is the point of staging..it doesnt matter who is doing it-what matters is it is used to point away from the obvious details of the real crime scene..we dont know enuf to say Karr wouldnt stage it to hide one thing over another..it did not have to be the ramseys..it is still possible that there is a family ocnnection or a vendetta..he could have wanted it to look like it was an inside job.
What if he couldnt get jon Binet out the window along with himself so he had to kill her.
 
Seeker said:
OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time?

No need to hit her head hard enough to crack her skull like it was, no need to strangle her with a cord either. No need for a 2 1/2 page ransom note if they were "lovers"...yeah, like I or anyone else really believes that one.
If he was so "in love" with her why didn't he seek immediate medical attention? Why didn't he take her body with him?

Seriously, why the elaborate cover up and why didn't he leave more DNA? Hair? etc?

Karr told The Associated Press on Thursday as police brought him through his guesthouse to collect belongings following his arrest. "It's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much, that her death was unintentional, that it was an accident."


Riiiight, then he left her all alone on a cold bare floor in a hidden basement room?


I think this guy just wanted a free trip back to the US.
Free trip-FIRST CLASS with champagne and all , Seek!
 
scandi said:
I found it odd that 3 years after her death, P & J told LK they did not yet know if their daughter had been sexually assulted.

Scandi
Yessss!!! I just read the Patsy interview yesterday and was blown away by her claim that this was the first she had heard of that, and asking who said that, and where does it say that, and blah, blah, blah. That IMO totally defies belief!!!

I, also, found it stupid that they didn't even make a show of sitting down w/the experts they had hired to discuss their findings as to exactly how their child had died, etc.
 
We don't know which part of the violence he considers to have caused her "accidental" death. The head blow or the strangling? Did he plan to molest and hurt her, but leave her alive, and then kidnap her? What then? Or did he plan to molest her and leave her alive? She'd have to be blindfolded or unconscious or she would be able to identify him later. Did he kill her so she would not identify him after the crime? If so it was not an accident. The garrotte with the stick and cords took some time - they were not an accident, so if we believe him, then they were staging after she was dead or he thought she was dead. Why did he stage it?

Let's try to figure out under what circumstances it could have been an accident. Maybe he use the cord to quiet her during the molestation. Maybe it was part of some ritual he wanted to use. The scream possibly made him panic and pull it too tight and strangle her. Maybe that is not what he planned to do. Then maybe he dropped her and cracked her head while trying to remove the body thru the window, for possible disposal. Maybe he was too weak to lift her up thru the window and was forced to leave the body behind. Maybe his plan was that she'd be alive and he'd force her to walk with her, out some door, to his car. The whole thing looks like a bungling, which matches his kind of loser persona that we know so far. The viciousness though is from some dark side that we have not seen yet in his current meek persona.
 
Accidental death and intruder theory don´t go together. Accidental death only makes sense with Ramsey did it theory.
 
Seeker said:
OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time?

No need to hit her head hard enough to crack her skull like it was, no need to strangle her with a cord either. No need for a 2 1/2 page ransom note if they were "lovers"...yeah, like I or anyone else really believes that one.
If he was so "in love" with her why didn't he seek immediate medical attention? Why didn't he take her body with him?

Seriously, why the elaborate cover up and why didn't he leave more DNA? Hair? etc?

Karr told The Associated Press on Thursday as police brought him through his guesthouse to collect belongings following his arrest. "It's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much, that her death was unintentional, that it was an accident."


Riiiight, then he left her all alone on a cold bare floor in a hidden basement room?


I think this guy just wanted a free trip back to the US.
Seeker, I have been wondering exactly the same thing. It makes NO SENSE for this guy to do the staging after an accident. He is adamant that he did not sexually abuse JBR and that he loved her ... so, what was the strangulation phase all about?
 
If Karr did it, then he could have planned this for a couple of years after seeing the family in Georgia. It's said that some serial killers will plan and could take that long to accomplish what they want. Bondage and torture could have been his plan and the bash over the head came when he was angered and lost control of the situation somehow. If he did it, I think it was very premeditated and probably has killed other children whether he did this or not.
 

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