If JonBenet's death was an accident...

[Agatha_C]

I find that stil very sad. You have no idea what this child was like and to speculate about what she would or would not do is just outrageous.

ANY PARENT knows that sometimes kids do things we are completely surprised by and wonder why they did it. It's completely inauthentic to present this line of thinking as a logical foray into the topic. It's simply mean spirited gossip.

BTW I have a five year old niece and she also wears her big sisters underwear because she wants to be like her. Should I go on and tell you more? Or is it still and impossibility of the universe that a child you have never met and know absolutely nothing about could do something that might surprise you?

JonBenet was a pagent girl as well. Who knows if she ever tried on pagent costumes a little bigger etc.

For someone that spends a lot of time speculating on many of the other case threads this site has to offer (mean gossip you say?) I would find this post hypocritical. Have you met anyone involved in the Caylee Anthony case or Kyron Horman case? If not then what you too say is speculation/theory and gossip. In case you didnt know, all any of us here and on other threads have to go on, is an evidence list and theories, without both this site does not exist. You will find in most JBR posters signatures that everything we say here is our opinion and we, like you are entitled by law to have one and guess what you dont have to like them. The next time you police this forum please show a badge or be more informed on that which you comment.

 

[SunnieRN]

First of all, we dont know the age or size of your son to compare whether its odd that he can wear his fathers undies. Secondly, you might not find it odd that a petite 6 y/o was in size 12 panties when she died, but I dont understand how you dont find it odd that they were the only pair in the entire house and the mother claims there should have been at least 6 more pair in her drawer...

Chewy, it isnt the ridiculous size of the panties that matters, its the lie. Please be more informed on the JBR case and posters, before you draw your guns.

And those other pairs were eventually turned in by the parents, in their original packaging, despite the fact that Patsy claimed they were in JonBenets drawer.

Chewy, you said 'The kind of arguments about this case are quite shocking to read. To say "I don't believe she'd do that" when you have absolutely no clue who or what you are talking about is very very strange and sad.'

You made a statement calling the opinions 'shocking' and you say 'when you have absolutely no clue', well Chewy, how in the heck do you figure your opinions are any more right on? Were you there? Do you have inside knowledge you would like to share with us?

Not quite sure where you are coming from, as Patsy and John repeatedly lied, therefore giving me an idea of how much they state, I choose to believe or discard. I figure you addressed your comment to me, so hopefully that answers why MY opinions are just that, MY opinions.

 

[Agatha_C]

And those other pairs were eventually turned in by the parents, in their original packaging, despite the fact that Patsy claimed they were in JonBenets drawer.

Chewy, you said 'The kind of arguments about this case are quite shocking to read. To say "I don't believe she'd do that" when you have absolutely no clue who or what you are talking about is very very strange and sad.'

You made a statement calling the opinions 'shocking' and you say 'when you have absolutely no clue', well Chewy, how in the heck do you figure your opinions are any more right on? Were you there? Do you have inside knowledge you would like to share with us?

Not quite sure where you are coming from, as Patsy and John repeatedly lied, therefore giving me an idea of how much they state, I choose to believe or discard. I figure you addressed your comment to me, so hopefully that answers why MY opinions are just that, MY opinions.

:goodpost:

 

[SunnieRN]

I find that stil very sad. You have no idea what this child was like and to speculate about what she would or would not do is just outrageous.

ANY PARENT knows that sometimes kids do things we are completely surprised by and wonder why they did it. It's completely inauthentic to present this line of thinking as a logical foray into the topic. It's simply mean spirited gossip.

BTW I have a five year old niece and she also wears her big sisters underwear because she wants to be like her. Should I go on and tell you more? Or is it still and impossibility of the universe that a child you have never met and know absolutely nothing about could do something that might surprise you?

JonBenet was a pagent girl as well. Who knows if she ever tried on pagent costumes a little bigger etc.

Wow! Outrageous, shocking, inauthentic, mean spirited gossip. So, you say that the posters who have studied this case are all of these things.

In less you have inside knowledge, you do not know what JonBenet was like. If you do, prove it. Otherwise state that your opinion disagrees with posters who KNOW this case.

You say 'JonBenet was a pageant girl as well', what is that supposed to mean? That because she was in pageants, she doesn't know NOT to wear underwear 6 sizes too large? Underwear of that size is NOT a 'little too big'.

And bye the way, JonBenet was 'in' pageants. At six years old, your parents control extracurricular activities. She wasn't a pageant girl, she was a six year old who was IN pageants as that is what her Mother wanted. Did she enjoy them? I certainly hope so, but I honestly doubt if you know any more certainly then we do.

What part of logical thinking

 

[SunnieRN]

Grrr, I love my iPad most of the time, but it won't let me scroll in my responses on the forum.

My last sentence partially disappeared and it won't let me correct it by editing.

What part of logical thinking, do you find missing in our posts? Get back to me AFTER you read Patsys lies. Give me your opinion after watching her on interviews, reading their book, reading their statements to BPD, and reviewing their actions from December 26, when JonBenet was 'kidnapped', until today.

After doing all of this, get back with me. Tell me why my opinions are ANY of the terminology you used.

 

[Tadpole12]

That "bloomies experiment" has always creeped me out....the appendages that are supposed to be "legs" are jutted so forward and so far apart....not a natural positioning at all. It has never held any water with me, and maybe if the fake body was positioned in a more realistic fashion, it may hold more weight with me.

Either way, any female knows that by simply rolling up the waist portion of any too-large garment will produce a much more fitting garment. When I want to wear my mid-calf length skirt as a miniskirt, I simply roll up the waist and voila! I'm not giving credence to either side by making this statement, just saying that those panties could have very well fit snugly with a few overturns at the elastic waist. This is a well known "trick" used by many females and with JB being a pageant girl with all her costumes, she undoubtedly knew how to make things fit by rolling them up att the waist. It's possible.

If the "bloomies experiment" was done with a more realistic positioning of the body (even just a little bit!) and the panties rolled up at the waist, one would be hard pressed to even know that there was a difference between the size 6 and size 12.

Heyya eleven.

The rolling of the waistband "trick" works well with a light skirt and a top that ends below the waist. Othertimes, depending on the elastic width and excess of fabric, it just looks like a thick belt of fabric, a bumper ..... And if your waisline is not indented? it certainly excentuates that fact.

JBR could have also worn the oversized bloomies like a strapless bathing suit, waistband pulled up?

Wouldn't the stain pattern reveal how the bloomies were worn? If the band was rolled would that not have been noted at the autopsy?

 

[MurriFlower]

Heyya eleven.

The rolling of the waistband "trick" works well with a light skirt and a top that ends below the waist. Othertimes, depending on the elastic width and excess of fabric, it just looks like a thick belt of fabric, a bumper ..... And if your waisline is not indented? it certainly excentuates that fact.

JBR could have also worn the oversized bloomies like a strapless bathing suit, waistband pulled up?

Wouldn't the stain pattern reveal how the bloomies were worn? If the band was rolled would that not have been noted at the autopsy?

You would think so, Tad. You would also think that someone who was present at the autopsy would have noticed if the bloomies were enormous. Perhaps not a man, but LA (who was experienced in sexual assault) would have noted inappropriate sized underwear. But no. That's because, as I've stated over and over, these panties were not enormous, but just a little too large. Certainly nothing that drew their attention and with the ME describing the colour, name of the day and where it was and the print on them, the chances of him not noticing the size discrepancy is nil.

 

[cynic]

That's because, as I've stated over and over, these panties were not enormous, but just a little too large. Certainly nothing that drew their attention and with the ME describing the colour, name of the day and where it was and the print on them, the chances of him not noticing the size discrepancy is nil.

That’s simply not true. The panties were very significantly oversized.
The size was noticed at some point, that’s why it appeared in the Karr arrest warrant.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124291"]The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[cynic]

I think the book/play "the Prime of Miss Brodie" that PR read and performed in high school and was one of her favorite books may really be significant as suggested by other posters
" To Sandy the unfamiliar pineapple had the authentic taste and appearance of happiness and she focused her small eyes closely on the pale gold cubes before she scooped them up in her spoon, and she thought the sharp taste on her tongue was that of a special happiness, which was nothing to do with eating, and was different from the happiness of play that one enjoyed unawares."

Don’t forget this rather interesting line:

"Oh dear," said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing, "I can't remember
how you spell 'possession.' Are there two s's or———?"

 

[MurriFlower]

That’s simply not true. The panties were very significantly oversized.
The size was noticed at some point, that’s why it appeared in the Karr arrest warrant.
The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Oh sure, someone noticed the size after and decided they would have been too big for her. However, no-one who saw her wearing them noticed or commented on it. That is more significant than some forum poster's photo that can't be verified to either of the size of the dummy or of the panties.

As I commented earlier, the size 12 (to fit an 9-10 year old girl as per the Bloomingdales size chart) is significantly smaller than a size to fit a 12-14 year old girl which is what RDI is claiming. I would just add, that there are NO girls size 12-14 on the Bloomingdales chart, so the panties could not have been this size. The size groupings of Bloomingdales apparel (this is ALL girls APPAREL including underwear) are; S (sizes 6 & 6X for girls aged 5 to 6 years); M (sizes 7 & 8 for girls aged 6 to 8 years); L (sizes 10 & 12 for girls aged 8 to 10 years) and XL (sizes 14 & 16 for girls aged 10 to 12). So as you can see, there is NO size 12-14 in girls apparel or underwear available at Bloomingdales and in fact, girls sizes finish at 12 years of age with a Size 16. Whoever it was in BPD who came up with the size 12-14 was mistaken, it doesn't exist.

http://www1.bloomingdales.com/popup/vendorSizingChart_kids.jsp?kids_apparel.jpg

 

[cynic]

Oh sure, someone noticed the size after and decided they would have been too big for her. However, no-one who saw her wearing them noticed or commented on it.

We don’t know what exactly was noticed at the autopsy, because an autopsy report is not, and is never meant to be, an exhaustive report of all observations and thoughts.
A perfect example is the fact that those present at the autopsy, including Meyer, felt that JonBenet had been wiped down, and yet this is nowhere to be found in the report.
(It’s also possible that the panties came off at the same time as the long johns, and she was not viewed with them on.)

As I commented earlier, the size 12 (to fit an 9-10 year old girl as per the Bloomingdales size chart) is significantly smaller…

Considering that Bloomingdales hasn’t sold children’s underwear for a number of years, that sizing chart is meaningless.
This is a tag from Days of the Week panties sold by Bloomingdales at that time:

See also
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6050582&postcount=282"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.[/ame]

 

[wonderllama]

Okay, so there's a 12/14 pair of underpants sold at Bloomingdale's from 1996.

Can we now move on from the denial that these exist?

 

[cynic]

Okay, so there's a 12/14 pair of underpants sold at Bloomingdale's from 1996.

Can we now move on from the denial that these exist?

One would think so, but I doubt it.

 

[MurriFlower]

We don’t know what exactly was noticed at the autopsy, because an autopsy report is not, and is never meant to be, an exhaustive report of all observations and thoughts.
A perfect example is the fact that those present at the autopsy, including Meyer, felt that JonBenet had been wiped down, and yet this is nowhere to be found in the report.
(It’s also possible that the panties came off at the same time as the long johns, and she was not viewed with them on.)
Considering that Bloomingdales hasn’t sold children’s underwear for a number of years, that sizing chart is meaningless.
This is a tag from Days of the Week panties sold by Bloomingdales at that time:

See also
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

These are st. eve girls day of the week panties. Many companies make day of the week panties. Size 12-14 is not a size on the Bloomingdales girls size chart.

 

[DeeDee249]

These are st. eve girls day of the week panties. Many companies make day of the week panties. Size 12-14 is not a size on the Bloomingdales girls size chart.

Bloomingdale's, like many other department stores. sells brands other than their own. In THIS country, girls' size 12-14 (for underwear, tights, and certain other garments) is VERY common. Bloomigdale's size chart may not include panties, or may be for garments sold under the Bloomies name.

 

[MurriFlower]

Bloomingdale's, like many other department stores. sells brands other than their own. In THIS country, girls' size 12-14 (for underwear, tights, and certain other garments) is VERY common. Bloomigdale's size chart may not include panties, or may be for garments sold under the Bloomies name.

There is no standard sizing that covers the whole of the US, each company publishes their own size chart. It only takes a google so one doesn't have to live in the US to find this out, it's not like I'm from another planet. I've already posted (on another thread) several different size charts from various companies that sell girls underwear in the US that are exactly the same as the Bloomingdales size chart.

RDI will never accept it because they want to continue to believe that JBR was redressed by her parent(s), (in 'enormous' sized panties) so it's just as a matter of course that I continue to correct this misconception regarding the size. I believe she put the panties on herself the previous night before going to the Whites and yes, even if she couldn't read, she could find a printed 'Wednesday' in a pack of seven day-of-the-week panties. The panties were not in the drawer, but packed by PR for the holidays. The evidence for this is there was not one pair of correct sized panties (or unstained ones for that matter) found in her drawer.

 

[wonderllama]

Murri, you're pretty good with dismissing everything presented so I have a quick question for you....

If there was pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach and it was the pineapple from the bench, and both parents say she was asleep when she got home (eventually they both said that) and the evidence (scream, rigor etc) suggests that JonBenet was killed sometime between 12-2am and the rate of digestion of the pineapple was such that it was probably eaten a couple of hours before she died meaning 9?10? Which is pretty much when the Ramsey's arrived home from their evening out and about.....how could she have eaten it without anyone knowing?

Does this mean that she was up and about 2 hours before being killed?
Does it mean she was up nibbling on pineapple, subdued, abused for a few hours and then killed?
Or simply, are you dismissing the pineapple?

 

[Agatha_C]

There is no standard sizing that covers the whole of the US, each company publishes their own size chart. It only takes a google so one doesn't have to live in the US to find this out, it's not like I'm from another planet. I've already posted (on another thread) several different size charts from various companies that sell girls underwear in the US that are exactly the same as the Bloomingdales size chart.

RDI will never accept it because they want to continue to believe that JBR was redressed by her parent(s), (in 'enormous' sized panties) so it's just as a matter of course that I continue to correct this misconception regarding the size. I believe she put the panties on herself the previous night before going to the Whites and yes, even if she couldn't read, she could find a printed 'Wednesday' in a pack of seven day-of-the-week panties. The panties were not in the drawer, but packed by PR for the holidays. The evidence for this is there was not one pair of correct sized panties (or unstained ones for that matter) found in her drawer.

More than sizing charts can be googled, such as the Bloomies logo. Interesting enough, Bloomies are not a clothing line nor is the logo exclusive to just underwear, although undies were the first things to be stamped with said logo in 1973. Turns out that it was such a good idea that anything stamped with the stores logo of Bloomies (the stores nickname) was considered a hot souvenir.

The Bloomies Logo was placed on select items not made by Bloomingdales but rather other lines and designers.

As easy as it is to google sizing charts, it was equally as breezy to find St.Eves website and contact info of email addy and phone number both of which I am putting to use in hopes of ending this argument once and for all, but hey your not from another planet so maybe you might want to do your own leg work and find out for yourself or wait for me to tell you what we all already know.

You mean to tell us Murri, that you think LE searched the entire house and not the suitcases on the bed? How silly is that? Seems to me what was in those suitcases would have been of great interest and since they were on a pantyraid, dont you think they would have taken those panties as well?

 

[MurriFlower]

Murri, you're pretty good with dismissing everything presented so I have a quick question for you....

If there was pineapple found in JonBenet's stomach and it was the pineapple from the bench, and both parents say she was asleep when she got home (eventually they both said that) and the evidence (scream, rigor etc) suggests that JonBenet was killed sometime between 12-2am and the rate of digestion of the pineapple was such that it was probably eaten a couple of hours before she died meaning 9?10? Which is pretty much when the Ramsey's arrived home from their evening out and about.....how could she have eaten it without anyone knowing?

Does this mean that she was up and about 2 hours before being killed?
Does it mean she was up nibbling on pineapple, subdued, abused for a few hours and then killed?
Or simply, are you dismissing the pineapple?

Look, Llama, I don't think you're such a bad Camelid, you are an Aussie after all, but you've just backed the wrong horse here!

I have no idea if the pineapple is significant in the crime or not. Did the parents feed it to her? If so, why? And why would they say she was asleep if she wasn't? They could have just said she asked for a snack and went to bed. I can't see the harm in that or why it would matter. It adds or subtracts nothing from their guilt/innocence.

As far as the IDI theory is concerned, I think there is a possibility. Firstly, and most likely, is that there was more than one IDI and one was a 'friendly' ('inside job'), who knew well JBR liked pineapple. He/She put a dash of GHB (you will be aware of a well published GHB related death here) in to the pineapple (acidic fruit masks the soapy taste) and took a very happy compliant JBR off to the basement to tie up and hide her in order to get the ransom as I've previously suggested. GHB without alcohol is quite safe apparently, because of how it works may even be a drug of preference for pedophiles, and wears off without hangover. Perfect if you want to keep someone quiet for a few hours, or molest them a little bit. Oh, and of course, no drugs were found in her body. That would not be a surprise considering the length of time from death to autopsy, and that GHB has to be specifically tested for because it apparently leaves the body rapidly.

Or, the pineapple could simply have nothing to do with the murder at all. JBR woke up after the family fell asleep, (maybe wanted a pee) and afterwards thought she'd go downstairs for something to eat/drink. Perhaps she got it out of the fridge herself, or maybe it was there on the table from earlier, and she just helped herself.

So, as far as the pineapple is concerned, I think from an RDI point of view it has much less value as evidence (why would they feed it to her and why would they then lie about it) than it does from an IDI stance (where it may be part of the planned crime).

 

[wonderllama]

Camelid made me laugh.

I guess where I was heading was no so much whether it was RDI or IDI, but once again searching for explanation of facts.

The pineapple presence is a fact.
The pineapple in a semi-digested form is also a fact.
The death somewhere between 12-2am is a fact.
So in reality, what I am attempting to establish is not just whether the Ramsey's lied or were untruthful about JB being awake and chowing down on a bowl of pineapple, but what the 'other' story is for what happened with it as there is a clear blurring between what's happened and what is KNOWN to have happened.

No horses being backed here I'm afraid, try not to get sucked into where you think my questions might be heading
Aussie Aussie Aussieeeeeee