If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[CloudedTruth]

I believe there are some key points that should be touched on in this case. I often look at the estate sales in my area and there more times then not: golf clubs. This may seem beside the point but hear me out. In looking at the clubs it seems to me that is exactly what JB was struck with. The size and angle fits like a piece to a puzzle. JR requested PP retrieve a bag of golf clubs from the basement. Why would a father be concerned about going golfing when his daughter had just been murdered? I for one would not be concerned about Extracurricular activities.

Also, why did DP take a standby flight on the 24th? He had plenty of time to book his flight before hand. DP is where the “fat cats” club came from. He and Nedra babysat both kids. DP built the good ship lollipop float that JB rode on. He was also in attendance for the R’s Christmas party on the 23rd which the first 911 call was placed. I predict PR was sexually abused. According to NP all children are “a little abused”.

How did BR know exactly what happened to JB? The knife, the strangulation, the hit on the head to days after the murder. Long before the autopsy results were in?

ST asks:
How was the investigation botched from the beginning-and why did police so carelessly allow the crime scene to be tampered with?

Why were John and Patsy Ramsey protected from early questioning and any lie-detector tests, even though their stories and behavior were erratic, suspicious and inconsistent?

Why was crucial evidence ignored, why were certain key witnesses unquestioned by detectives, and why were the Ramseys privy to sensitive information about the case and even police reports?

I ask:
What happened to the phone records of the R’s? Why did the R’s have to change their stories so many times if they were innocent?

These are all good questions.

I do think the golf clubs are a part of what happened, and it is very likely that a golf club was used to inflict the head blow. The fact that JR asked PP to retrieve a bag of clubs from the basement is certainly suspicious. I have long wondered if there was a piece or pieces of evidence that were hidden in that bag.

Agree that is is odd that DP flew standby on the 24th. But then again in those days, air travel was much different than it is now. It was much easier then. Could be an innocent explanation, but this is yet another detail that was not well investigated.

I think two things impacted the investigation from the very beginning. The inexperience of LE, as well as LE thinking they were investigating a kidnapping. As such, they only roped off JBR's bedroom to preserve any potential evidence and searched the house looking for entry and exit points. Hence the explanation of why Officer French did not try to open the wine cellar door. Once it became a murder investigation, the crime scene was already severely compromised. Worth noting that the ransom note served its purpose well in that regard.

The speed and manner in which the R's lawyered up is key to everything that happened from then on. The disappearance of the phone records leads me to believe that JR was on the phone in the wee hours of the morning getting advice and circling the wagons, and that's when covering up in addition to the cover up that was in play inside the house began. Methods of protection for the R's and to hide the truth were put in motion well before that 911 call. Given the relationships between the lawyers and the DA's office and some powerful people in Colorado politics, I think a fix was in immediately, and LE's hands were tied to a certain extent. We also now know that Team R's private investigators got to several witnesses before LE did.

 

[sunshynebabii]

February 18 2024

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Along with all your questions, I wonder how accurate the handwriting comparisons were. If JR was able to get people with more influence and money than him to sway the police handling of the case. They could sway the people doing the handwriting comparisons too. My opinion is that he did just that. For everything that was ignored to be ignored because I don't think the R's had enough of their own money for what would be needed to make all this go away.

Perhaps they did have enough money but they obviously had the right connections!

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I do think the golf clubs are a part of what happened, and it is very likely that a golf club was used to inflict the head blow. The fact that JR asked PP to retrieve a bag of clubs from the basement is certainly suspicious. I have long wondered if there was a piece or pieces of evidence that were hidden in that bag.

I often have thought the same thing, Items could have been hidden in the golf bag I.E. duck tape, package of bloomies etc. There were golf clubs obtained through the search warrants: golf clubs (4GLI), golf club (79BAH). The golf club was discovered outside and (as I understand it) had a hair on it from JB. The search warrant only mentions golf clubs. There were two sets of golf clubs 1)belonging to JR and 2)to BR. These both can be clearly seen leading up to the space in which the ligature was applied; in the basement. What was the analysis of such I wonder. Once the R’s moved to Atlanta the contents of the home were boxed and shipped to them there.
So, again why was it so important for JR to request his golf clubs in the dead of winter?

Agree that is is odd that DP flew standby on the 24th. But then again in those days, air travel was much different than it is now. It was much easier then. Could be an innocent explanation, but this is yet another detail that was not well investigated.

Yes indeed it was much different. But DP had the money to book his flight to Atlanta before the 24th. I have read that either JR or DP were always available for the company (AG) when one was out of pocket. As the R’s were leaving for extended vacation plans one would think this had already been handled. So therefore it is suspicious IMO. Also, the reference to fat cats found in the rn. This phrase is directly linked to DP specifically and also JR.

I think two things impacted the investigation from the very beginning. The inexperience of LE, as well as LE thinking they were investigating a kidnapping.

Whether or not the crime scene was a kidnapping or a murder does not explain why the scene wasn’t secured once the police arrived. It is basic police procedure. A rookie cop gets this.

The speed and manner in which the R's lawyered up is key to everything that happened from then on. The disappearance of the phone records leads me to believe that JR was on the phone in the wee hours of the morning getting advice and circling the wagons, and that's when covering up in addition to the cover up that was in play inside the house began. Methods of protection for the R's and to hide the truth were put in motion well before that 911 call. Given the relationships between the lawyers and the DA's office and some powerful people in Colorado politics, I think a fix was in immediately, and LE's hands were tied to a certain extent. We also now know that Team R's private investigators got to several witnesses before LE did.

Indeed!

 

[Andreee]

I often have thought the same thing, Items could have been hidden in the golf bag I.E. duck tape, package of bloomies etc. There were golf clubs obtained through the search warrants: golf clubs (4GLI), golf club (79BAH). The golf club was discovered outside and (as I understand it) had a hair on it from JB. The search warrant only mentions golf clubs. There were two sets of golf clubs 1)belonging to JR and 2)to BR. These both can be clearly seen leading up to the space in which the ligature was applied; in the basement. What was the analysis of such I wonder. Once the R’s moved to Atlanta the contents of the home were boxed and shipped to them there.
So, again why was it so important for JR to request his golf clubs in the dead of winter?


Yes indeed it was much different. But DP had the money to book his flight to Atlanta before the 24th. I have read that either JR or DP were always available for the company (AG) when one was out of pocket. As the R’s were leaving for extended vacation plans one would think this had already been handled. So therefore it is suspicious IMO. Also, the reference to fat cats found in the rn. This phrase is directly linked to DP specifically and also JR.


Whether or not the crime scene was a kidnapping or a murder does not explain why the scene wasn’t secured once the police arrived. It is basic police procedure. A rookie cop gets this.


Indeed!

Not to mention that apparently P.R. was still wearing the same clothes that morning that she had worn the night before at the neighbours party!

 

[CloudedTruth]

Not to mention that apparently P.R. was still wearing the same clothes that morning that she had worn the night before at the neighbours party!

She was, yes. And while she claimed that it was because they had to get up so early to make the flight (which was private BTW, so no time constraints other than self imposed), all her friends and those who knew her were very confident in saying wearing the same clothes two days in a row was something the very appearance conscious PR would NEVER do and had never done before.......

 

[CloudedTruth]

So, again why was it so important for JR to request his golf clubs in the dead of winter?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Not only was it the dead of winter, his daughter had just been murdered. Who even thinks about playing golf under those circumstances? Highly suspicious IMHO.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Yes indeed it was much different. But DP had the money to book his flight to Atlanta before the 24th. I have read that either JR or DP were always available for the company (AG) when one was out of pocket. As the R’s were leaving for extended vacation plans one would think this had already been handled. So therefore it is suspicious IMO. Also, the reference to fat cats found in the rn. This phrase is directly linked to DP specifically and also JR.

It is suspicious, yes. From what I have read, the party on the 23rd for which DP was present, was a last minute thing. I suppose it's possible DP had booked a flight prior and then changed it to stay for the party, but given how hard (and expensive) it is to get a last minute flight on Christmas Eve, he went for standby. Why he apparently was not questioned about this is odd.

It is also my understanding that DP would have been expected to stay in Boulder while JR was on vacation, although one can make the argument that perhaps he was going to make it a quick trip back to Atlanta just to be with Nedra on Christmas day. But there seems not to have been plans to return to Boulder immediately, from what we know. And also adding to the suspiciousness is the fact that neither DP or Nedra went to Boulder once the news about their granddaughter broke. Both of PR's sisters went.

Of course what many have noted is that DP seemed to have hot footed it out of Boulder as soon as he could after the party on the 23rd.......during which there was the mysterious 911 call which remains not adequately explained, and reports of JBR sitting on the stairs crying and saying that she didn't feel pretty. Taken individually, perhaps all just innocent coincidences. But put together, definitely eyebrow raising and makes one wonder if something did happen that night that was a catalyst for everything else that then went down. There remain to this day questions about DP and possible abuse.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

So @CloudedTruth @Rain on my Parade Are you guys speculating that DP is involved, in some fashion, with the murder or the SA?

 

[CloudedTruth]

So @CloudedTruth @Rain on my Parade Are you guys speculating that DP is involved, in some fashion, with the murder or the SA?

Personally, I think it's hard to say. There are certainly enough still unanswered questions regarding DP that raise suspicion IMO. I do find it odd that throughout the history of this case, we have heard from so many people that were involved with or close to the R family, with the exception of DP. To my knowledge, he has not spoken at all, although he was questioned by LE on 1/9 while they were interviewing employees of Access Graphics. But I have never heard an explanation of why he flew standby back to Atlanta on 12/24, or why he and Nedra did not rush to Boulder to support PR after the murder as others in the family did.

By accounts, DP was a larger than life figure, a big talker who liked to boast. Then after the murder, he went rather silent and started keeping a very low profile. It's just another element of this case that raises more questions that we have never gotten answers to.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

Personally, I think it's hard to say. There are certainly enough still unanswered questions regarding DP that raise suspicion IMO. I do find it odd that throughout the history of this case, we have heard from so many people that were involved with or close to the R family, with the exception of DP. To my knowledge, he has not spoken at all, although he was questioned by LE on 1/9 while they were interviewing employees of Access Graphics. But I have never heard an explanation of why he flew standby back to Atlanta on 12/24, or why he and Nedra did not rush to Boulder to support PR after the murder as others in the family did.

By accounts, DP was a larger than life figure, a big talker who liked to boast. Then after the murder, he went rather silent and started keeping a very low profile. It's just another element of this case that raises more questions that we have never gotten answers to.

Interesting, I have never considered DP. I may have to research this a bit. IIRC wasn't NP more fanatical about JB pageant stuff then PR was too?

 

[proust20]

ITA that anything could have been put in the bag with the golf clubs. JR was eager to play golf during the winter in GA! (Wonder what his handicap was?) The blatant retrieval of the clubs shows that the CS was still not secured at that late date.

Obviously, money talks, and it talks to influential people. JR's connection with Lockheed Martin should not be overlooked.

From the outset, the Rs saw LE as an adversary. If they thought that they were being unfairly targeted, they should have done everything to dispel suspicion, i.e. availability for any and all LE interviews and polygraphs. Their attitude ought to have been one of doing anything that would save time so that LE could find the 'real' killer(s) more quickly. Indeed, innocent parents would be breathing down LE's necks 24/7, and not looking for an out of state flight immediately after the discovery of their daughter's body. On CNN, PR cautioned that a murderer was on the loose. "Keep your children close." If she believed that, delays and evasions would imperil the community. A year and a half before sitting down with LE. Wow. And they were puzzled why they lacked credibility! JR still plays out this charade.

BR did know perhaps more than he should have about the strangulation and the head blow. He told Dr. B that JB was struck with a hammer, after saying that "I know what happened." True that a golf club was his previous weapon of choice. Although the head blow is only a part of this complicated crime.

PR was not only still dressed in her party outfit, but also fully made up.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Interesting, I have never considered DP. I may have to research this a bit. IIRC wasn't NP more fanatical about JB pageant stuff then PR was too?

I had not really considered DP until recently either. And I just don't know enough at this point to even come close to having a theory as to what his involvement might have been, other than to consider that his presence and actions surrounding the events that occurred in the days prior do seem suspicious and therefore raise some questions.

And yes, NP was very involved in the pageant stuff. Also one of PR's sisters. They took it very seriously, to the point of obsession. It was much more than just a "small part of JBR's life" which only took up a weekend here and there, which was the narrative the R's tried to push.

 

[CloudedTruth]

ITA that anything could have been put in the bag with the golf clubs. JR was eager to play golf during the winter in GA! (Wonder what his handicap was?) The blatant retrieval of the clubs shows that the CS was still not secured at that late date.

Obviously, money talks, and it talks to influential people. JR's connection with Lockheed Martin should not be overlooked.

From the outset, the Rs saw LE as an adversary. If they thought that they were being unfairly targeted, they should have done everything to dispel suspicion, i.e. availability for any and all LE interviews and polygraphs. Their attitude ought to have been one of doing anything that would save time so that LE could find the 'real' killer(s) more quickly. Indeed, innocent parents would be breathing down LE's necks 24/7, and not looking for an out of state flight immediately after the discovery of their daughter's body. On CNN, PR cautioned that a murderer was on the loose. "Keep your children close." If she believed that, delays and evasions would imperil the community. A year and a half before sitting down with LE. Wow. And they were puzzled why they lacked credibility! JR still plays out this charade.

BR did know perhaps more than he should have about the strangulation and the head blow. He told Dr. B that JB was struck with a hammer, after saying that "I know what happened." True that a golf club was his previous weapon of choice. Although the head blow is only a part of this complicated crime.

PR was not only still dressed in her party outfit, but also fully made up.

Just to clarify, LE did not allow PR's sister to take the golf clubs at that time. That said, one would think such an odd request would trigger LE examining the golf bags. I have never heard specifically that they did.

Absolutely agree that the R's not cooperating with LE was suspicious and certainly undermined their credibility. They supposedly were told (literally within hours of the body being found) that they were being "targeted", by someone who had insider knowledge. This raises a few questions for me.....who is this insider person with this "knowledge" who was so well connected that they found this out so quickly and during a holiday? This implies a decision was made by LE to "target" the R's almost from moment one, which is highly unlikely. Another question is, why would they think it not normal for the parents to be the first suspects when that is ALWAYS how it works? There was no obvious or immediate evidence of anyone else in the house that night, the family will ALWAYS be the first that need to be ruled out. JR spoke out of both sides of his mouth on this one......proclaiming they understood they would be suspect and need to be ruled out (oh, yes we're cooperating!!), all the while loudly complaining about how they were being targeted. I have long referred to Mark Klaas, father of Polly, and his very vocal sentiments about allowing yourself to be fully investigated so that LE can rule you out and move on to investigate others before the trail goes cold. The R's NEVER did that, and just complained. The lack of communication from the R's with LE about how the investigation was going is also glaringly suspect. IIRC, PR admitted to calling once during the summer of 1997 to get an update. Once. And months later. As you noted, most innocent parents hound the police for updates. Everything the R's did screams involvement in the murder of their daughter, and yet it is so true that JR still plays out the charade of them being the victims of an unfair witch hunt. It's ridiculous.

That morning PR looked her usual impeccable according to those who were on the scene. She got up between 5:30 and 5:45AM by her own account, and was fully dressed, made up with hair perfectly coiffed in time to call 911 at 5:52AM with police arriving to note that within 7 minutes of the call. I just don't buy it.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

My question is, is anyone in law enforcement even actually investigating this case anymore, or are they going use that Oliva guy as a "Patsy"? (Pun intended) Although I haven't seen anything else after the news report about his handwriting analysis. Anyone have a link to any possible updates on him?

 

[proust20]

The person who 'discovers' the body always has to rank high as a suspect. LA thought she knew at once who was guilty.

The Rs phone records were never divulged. There is speculation that a high powered lawyer was called before BPD arrived at the house, and it was this person who furnished the Rs with info about the investigation from the beginning. The parents refusal to talk with LE was a legal ploy about which they may have been advised.

 

[CloudedTruth]

My question is, is anyone in law enforcement even actually investigating this case anymore, or are they going use that Oliva guy as a "Patsy"? (Pun intended) Although I haven't seen anything else after the news report about his handwriting analysis. Anyone have a link to any possible updates on him?

Last I heard, there was an article in a local publication (Westword) that discussed the cold case review. This was as of January, 2024. Boulder PD and JR indicated they were in communication with regard to any new developments (Oliva) and the potential for further DNA testing with what little DNA material remains.

Since the publishing of that article Oliva, who was serving time on child *advertiser censored* charges, has been released from prison. There were pictures published of him outside a halfway house where he was staying after having been released. There has been no news or pictures of him since that time that I am aware of. Despite all the negative opinions regarding the handling of the DNA in this case, it's worth noting that Oliva was tested and was not a match for the so called "foreign" DNA that was found. And it should also be noted that the person who did the most recent handwriting analysis and proclaimed Oliva as the author of the RN is not at all credible and does not possess the credentials she claims to have. Given how quickly that story faded from its moment in the spotlight, I think it's a safe assumption that someone was looking for 15 minutes of fame. Oliva is a convenient target given his history. Love the use of "Pasty" btw!

 

[CloudedTruth]

The person who 'discovers' the body always has to rank high as a suspect. LA thought she knew at once who was guilty.

The Rs phone records were never divulged. There is speculation that a high powered lawyer was called before BPD arrived at the house, and it was this person who furnished the Rs with info about the investigation from the beginning. The parents refusal to talk with LE was a legal ploy about which they may have been advised.

The phone records scenario is a key element to this case IMO. Steve Thomas has indicated that the BPD was hampered by the DA's office in obtaining the records, which does not surprise me at all given the overall conduct of that DA's office throughout this case. After waiting a year for those records, they finally were able to obtain some but not all, after JR agreed and signed his limited permission, which should not have been necessary. But it didn't include all the phone records that should have been made available for examination. And of course there is the mystery of JR's cell phone records allegedly being blank for the month of December, but normal activity in the months prior. Given that it was seen to that those records were not made available to LE for an entire year, it's anyone's guess as to what happened to those records. But I think it's a safe assumption that those records obtained something that needed to be hidden from LE that points to the involvement of the parents.

 

[proust20]

There is also the issue if John called the hardware store inquiring about what information would be on a receipt. Duct tape?

Oliva's handwriting was an obvious mismatch. Perhaps I do not recall accurately, but I think that he was mentioned as a possible perp long before this current mention?

 

[CloudedTruth]

There is also the issue if John called the hardware store inquiring about what information would be on a receipt. Duct tape?

Oliva's handwriting was an obvious mismatch. Perhaps I do not recall accurately, but I think that he was mentioned as a possible perp long before this current mention?

There's a recent thread devoted to the hardware calls.......it was someone impersonating JR who made the calls, fishing for information.

Yes, Oliva was identified as a possible suspect early on in the case, and was investigated as such. His DNA did not match. He has continued with his obsession of JBR through the years.