Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - #154 *Richard Allen Arrested*

[kittythehare]

Seriously, what difference can it possibly make in anyone's life that the document is sealed to all but LE, the court, the state, the defendant and counsel?

No one else needs to know, people just want to see it, hoping there are some gory details contained therein.

There is no reason to chum the water, the feeding frenzy has begun based solely on speculation and opinion.

If there is a trial, which I doubt will happen, the details will then be public.

Every person accused of a crime is cloaked in the presumption of innocence and is entitled to vigorous representation.

Whomever RMA retains as counsel has the duty to make the state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant is guilty.

For the UK inquirer, private attorneys can turn down any case, public defense counsel (free lawyer) gets assigned to represent the impoverished by the Public Defenders Office. The PD may get stuck with an unpleasant case, but is obligated to exercise vigorous representation.

It doesn't matter if the lawyer believes the client is guilty, duty is duty. The only thing the attorney can not do is put her client on the stand and ask questions knowing that the client's answers will be a lie. It is subornation of perjury.

Why do you doubt there will be a trial?

 

[mrjitty]

While this is certainly possible, after seeing the judge's email & order, I think it's also quite possible that he just panicked and sealed everything he could as soon as he got the case.

Sealing the complaint and keeping the case completely unlisted was way more unusual than just sealing the arrest warrant, and it doesn't look like he had any particularly good reason for that. The arrest warrant will contain a lot of the details of the crime. It's release will cause pain to the victims' families and will fuel the media storm around the case. I can totally see this particular judge having sealed it purely because of that.

Do you know if Judge Deiner had handled a murder case before?


I followed one non US case where a big appeal was handled by a Judge who had only done 2 criminal cases and it was predictably a hot mess.

Personally I don't think this is the kind of case where you want a small town Judge learning on the job, though of course there will be plenty of small town Judges who would meet the challenge well.

 

[katydid23]

Do you know if Judge Deiner had handled a murder case before?


I followed one non US case where a big appeal was handled by a Judge who had only done 2 criminal cases and it was predictably a hot mess.

Personally I don't think this is the kind of case where you want a small town Judge learning on the job, though of course there will be plenty of small town Judges who would meet the challenge well.

I think any judge from Delphi area may end up having connections or friendships with the defendant's family and/or the victim's families. Chances are they would have to recuse themselves.

I would hope they might bring in a judge from a nearby city, with more criminal experience, to handle this high profile case so it doesn't turn into a circus.


OOPS---looks like Diener already recused himself

Judge steps down from Delphi case after approving state custody transfer of murder suspect

Judge Benjamin Diener asked Thursday to be recused from the case but did not give a reason.

abc7chicago.com

Judge Benjamin Diener asked Thursday to be recused from the case but did not give a reason.

The Indiana Supreme Court will now assign another judge.

Before all of this happened, Judge Diener approved moving Allen into state custody for safety reasons. Allen had been in the custody of the Carroll County Sheriff's Department.

 

[gizmobtj]

I'm wondering how tips coming in after his arrest AFTER they solicited them AFTER they gave the public his name, will benefit the defense. I just wonder if that is sort of poisoning the well to an extent. Say a girl comes forward and says he tried to mess with her 3 years ago but she said nothing. She can't be a good witness for the prosecution. A good defense attorney can rip that to shreds. This trial could turn into something that appears to be a witch hunt of Allen because the town was so ready for resolution they'll go with anyone. IMO. Can someone please talk some sense into me and explain how those things aren't a real concern... ?

I am beginning to think that law enforcement's requests for tips has as much to do finding out what they don't know about Allen as it has to do with an accomplice. They may have enough evidence for probable cause, such as something that places him at or strongly suggests he was at the scene, and may have also felt the perpetrator of this crime should be taken off the street even before they had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. They might have also thought he might be leaving the area or might flee after the search. The bottom line is that without the probable cause affidavit we actually don't know if they have an airright case or a quite thin one. I am thrilled they made an arrest but all we have is their word right now, which to me, doesn't amount to much. I say that not because I think they not good, smart or well-intented. Instead, I say that because they are human-- and humans, even well meaning law enforcement, make mistakes

 

[Charlot123]

Seriously, what difference can it possibly make in anyone's life that the document is sealed to all but LE, the court, the state, the defendant and counsel?

No one else needs to know, people just want to see it, hoping there are some gory details contained therein.

There is no reason to chum the water, the feeding frenzy has begun based solely on speculation and opinion.

If there is a trial, which I doubt will happen, the details will then be public.

Every person accused of a crime is cloaked in the presumption of innocence and is entitled to vigorous representation.

Whomever RMA retains as counsel has the duty to make the state prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant is guilty.

For the UK inquirer, private attorneys can turn down any case, public defense counsel (free lawyer) gets assigned to represent the impoverished by the Public Defenders Office. The PD may get stuck with an unpleasant case, but is obligated to exercise vigorous representation.

It doesn't matter if the lawyer believes the client is guilty, duty is duty. The only thing the attorney can not do is put her client on the stand and ask questions knowing that the client's answers will be a lie. It is subornation of perjury.

There are several aspects of this case.

- two girls were killed, less than a mile from one's home, in a public place, in the middle of the day, by a person whom they, as it appears, did not even recognize.

- during five years of a costly investigation, many locals were suspected by the public and media, as the result of which some were demoted, some made life decisions they might later regret, and some spent time in jail, officially, for unrelated charges that many question.

- During that time, the local sherif said that the citizens of Delphi were not in danger.

- now, as it seems, the citizens of Delphi, and more so, their kids, were in obvious danger. The man who has been arrested and accused of killing the teenagers, lived in the middle of Delphi, worked in the local pharmacy, spent evenings in the popular bar, and was never recognized as the murderer. During these five years, the citizens of Delphi, their children and the unsuspecting public were at risk, as the man was free to roam Indiana and could have visited other states. Also, during these five years, several cases of human trafficking and a pedophile ring were uncovered next to/within Delphi. One of the murdered girls was victim of online pedophile attacks and catfishing; while officially unrelated to murders, no one can fully disprove the connection, yet.

- the state police seems to be positive that the arrested man is the murderer. Neither proof that it is the same man nor the reason for his arrest have been released to the public. Moreover, the arrest affidavit has been sealed. Amidst the expected confusion, new theories have been generated by amateur enthusiasts, some reasonable, other, questionable. The public's interest is piqued by the fact that midway into the investigation, the official sketch of the suspect, his age range, height and looks, all have underwent dramatic change. While the recently arrested man might bear some resemblance to the first sketch, he looks very different from sketch nr 2 by all parameters, including height and age group. In fact, the difference is so significant, that the current suspect is known to have had his pictures taken next to the sketch number 2; on the photo, there is very little similarity between the sketch and the person currently arrested.

While the public has been actively following the case for 5 years and supportive of the investigation, diligently following all press conferences and watching films about the case featuring law enforcement officers, it naturally would like to know what kind of "old detective work", using law enforcement's parlance, led to the murderer being captured.

Everyone understands the need for privacy for the deceased victims and their families. At the same time, the public, predictably, would like to rest assured that they and mostly, their own children are safe from the dangerous predator who killed two teenagers in Delphi, Indiana. Given prior confusing aspects of the investigation, it needs to see that this lengthy and dangerous path has, indeed, ended.

Sadly, the statement of judge Diener, who expressed fear for himself and his own family, does not provide such reassurance. Given the fact that the killer is behind bars, it is not even quite clear who might be threatening the safety of the judge, law enforcement officers and their families, as mentioned in the court documents.

If someone is, however, such a person might definitely be considered a publuc enemy.

All this considered, the public, obviously, has reasons to be worried about own security.

Weighing all the abovementioned facts, there seem to be more pros than cons to unseal the AA.

 

[gizmobtj]

Here is the full order

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/ALLEN-ORDER-ISSUED.pdf

Oh, my, the judge needs a moment

 

[gregjrichards]

Why do you doubt there will be a trial?

I think he will plead guilty and get life without parole to avoid being put on death row. That may not happen for some time though maybe late on next year. I read a comment from someone with a legal background that allegedly in the state of Indiana even if he accepts a plea deal the prosecution still need to have hearings outlining the charges that have been made against him and provide details of the plea agreement that he may have been offered and wished to accept. Then after hearing all the information they legally require to make an informed and lawful decision the Judge decides whether or not to approve or deny the plea agreement.

“The Indiana Supreme Court is in the process of appointing Allen County Superior Court Judge Fran Gull as special judge in the case after Carroll Circuit Court Judge Benjamin Diener’s recusal, spokeswoman Kathryn Dolan said.”

Judge recuses himself from case of slain Indiana girls

A northern Indiana judge has recused himself from the case of two slain teenage girls, an Indiana Supreme Court spokeswoman said Thursday.

www.fox8live.com

“A Fort Wayne man who once faced 13 charges related to child molesting has avoided time in prison after pleading guilty to two counts of sexual misconduct with a minor.

Allen Superior Court Judge Fran Gull sentenced 49-year-old Steven Wells to a three-year suspended prison sentence and ordered him to spend four years on probation, as called for in a plea agreement he reached with prosecutors.

Court records state Wells admitted to having sex with a 14-year-old girl and abusing a 13-year-old girl who has the mental capacity of a 7-year-old. The abuse happened between 2012 and 2016.”

Fort Wayne man gets suspended sentence for molesting 2 teens

A Fort Wayne man who once faced 13 charges related to child molesting has avoided time in prison after pleading guilty to two counts of sexual misconduct with a minor.

www.wndu.com

Do you think it likely special Judge Frances C. Gull will remain the Judge for the duration of the legal process in the Delphi murder case? I’m concerned about the very lenient plea agreement approved in the case above and that Prosecutors did not seek a much more severe sentence. Understandably there has been a lot of criticism for this plea deal and a petition is still online for people to sign to try and get it overturned.

 

[gizmobtj]

Why do they need to gain public trust?

It was explicitly explained they don’t want to release the details as of yet and that will become clear why at a later date.


So I do not understand why the public feel they are owed anything here. It quite literally makes no sense.

This should be about JUSTICE for two teenage girls not the public getting upset because they have been told they can’t see information right now!!



IMO

The public includes their jury pool. If people don't trust this system, it endangers prosecutions. You can see it in places like Baltimore, where police and prosecutors and the court are not trusted to the point where they can't get convictions in cases that would be a slam dunk one county over

 

[gizmobtj]

Just catching up, I think the details regarding evidence or anything important should be sealed until the trial or when they see fit. If it could jeopardise the prosecutions case and let this murderer go free, then nothing should be released IMO.

Two words for you: Richard Jewel

 

[kittythehare]

I think he will plead guilty and get life without parole to avoid being put on death row. That may not happen for some time though maybe late on next year. I read a comment from someone with a legal background that allegedly in the state of Indiana even if he accepts a plea deal the prosecution still need to have hearings outlining the charges that have been made against him and provide details of the plea agreement that he may have been offered and wished to accept. Then after hearing all the information they legally require to make an informed and lawful decision the Judge decides whether or not to approve or deny the plea agreement.

“The Indiana Supreme Court is in the process of appointing Allen County Superior Court Judge Fran Gull as special judge in the case after Carroll Circuit Court Judge Benjamin Diener’s recusal, spokeswoman Kathryn Dolan said.”

Judge recuses himself from case of slain Indiana girls

A northern Indiana judge has recused himself from the case of two slain teenage girls, an Indiana Supreme Court spokeswoman said Thursday.

www.fox8live.com

“A Fort Wayne man who once faced 13 charges related to child molesting has avoided time in prison after pleading guilty to two counts of sexual misconduct with a minor.

Allen Superior Court Judge Fran Gull sentenced 49-year-old Steven Wells to a three-year suspended prison sentence and ordered him to spend four years on probation, as called for in a plea agreement he reached with prosecutors.

Court records state Wells admitted to having sex with a 14-year-old girl and abusing a 13-year-old girl who has the mental capacity of a 7-year-old. The abuse happened between 2012 and 2016.”

Fort Wayne man gets suspended sentence for molesting 2 teens

A Fort Wayne man who once faced 13 charges related to child molesting has avoided time in prison after pleading guilty to two counts of sexual misconduct with a minor.

www.wndu.com

Do you think it likely special Judge Frances C. Gull will remain the Judge for the duration of the legal process in the Delphi murder case? I’m concerned about the very lenient plea agreement approved in the case above and that Prosecutors did not seek a much more severe sentence. Understandably there has been a lot of criticism for this plea deal and a petition is still online for people to sign to try and get it overturned.

Thanks Greg.
He's such an unknown quantity I wouldn't have been able to call it.

 

[kittythehare]

Oh, my, the judge needs a moment

He might have a point.
Vigilantes are real.

 

[Carovb5]

Can we look at the bigger picture here?

The only way - IMO - that a judge sealed this warrant is that there’s an ongoing investigation into other persons. If it were just RA, their guy’s locked up they can say what they want.

OTHER PERSONS; again not KAK as he’s locked up so they can investigate all they want, he’s going nowhere.

This reminds me of a place we went on one of the wayyy back threads about a possible wider conspiracy involving other crimes and other perps?

Again I ask: what ongoing investigation - besides RA and KAK who are already under lock and key - would inspire a judge to break precedent and seal something that should usually be public? What could be said that might hurt due process/other possible arrests or investigations when your main perp is already charged (and thus reached the evidential threshold) and ain’t going anywhere…?

The family wishing this to be kept sealed can mean a lot of things:
- wanting respect & privacy for Abby and Libby
- wanting to stop the online speculation (it must be painfull for them to hear/read a lot of stuff out there)
- wanting a successfull trial, their lawyer might have told them a media circus has, in the past, hurt trials before.
- maybe they know what info or people the police is still working on & working together to stay quiet about it
- maybe the police is looking into a relative, friend or someone they love & they want to be 100% sure they’re ruled in or out before this comes out

MOO, just trying to keep all options open & not letting emotions or personal opinion get in the way.

Edited typos

 

[kittythehare]

The family wishing this to be kept sealed can mean a lot of things:
- wanting respect & privacy for Abby and Libby
- wanting to stop the online speculation (it must be painfull for them to hear/read a lot of stuff out there)
- wanting a successfull trial, their lawyer might have told them a media circus has, in the past, hurt trials before.
- maybe they know what info or people the police is still working on & working together to stay quiet about it
- maybe the police is looking into a relative, friend or someone they love & they want to be 100% sure they’re ruled in or out before this comes out

MOO, just trying to keep all options open & not letting emotions or personal opinion get in the way.

Edited typos

This came from the prosecutor, not the police.
it won't contain a great deal of information. It will be opened but what's the rush?
You make good points about the family.
I'm okay with it.

 

[taylorss]

I wonder if the now-recused judge ever had occasion to visit the Delphi CVS and make use of RMA’s very very helpful assistance

 

[FrostedGlass]

Do you know if Judge Deiner had handled a murder case before?


I followed one non US case where a big appeal was handled by a Judge who had only done 2 criminal cases and it was predictably a hot mess.

Personally I don't think this is the kind of case where you want a small town Judge learning on the job, though of course there will be plenty of small town Judges who would meet the challenge well.

Yes he has. At least 3 that I know of: the Willie Smith case

Tyrone Leftridge 08C01-2106-F2-000005
Jennifer Dean 08C01-2107-MR-000002
Shianne Brooks-Brown 08C01-2106-MR-000001

GUILTY - IN - Willie Lee Smith Jr., 55, murdered during a meetup for sex, Flora, June, 2021 *2 Arrested*

Suspects in Lafayette man's murder held without bond until hearings [snips] Note: the murder happened in June but charges weren't filed until July. DELPHI, Ind. — Willie Lee Smith Jr. drove to Flora on Wednesday July 16 to have sex with Shianne Brooks-Brown for $80, according to probable cause...

www.websleuths.com

 

[ChuckInHouston]

I think it’s really telling that Kelsi is petitioning to have the PCA remain sealed. There’s something there that the family doesn’t want released. MOO

Yes. The scene was bad. The PD locked it down early as there were some utterly sick details that were released in local MSM the 1st day, and then never spoken of again. I know, I was watching the report as it was said. I have never doubted that PD asked local news to keep that particular detail under wrap and they did. This is a small community. 3K people. I live in Houston, we have neighborhoods with more than 3K people. To protect the family, the memory of the girls and give them some dignity. I agree. I do not need all the gory details. The fact that someone murdered to very young and very innocent people is enough to tell me how bad it was. That aside, It has caused mass speculation. I won't speculate on RA's guilt or innocence other than to say, they probably did not arrest him for no reason. What I will say is that as is usual in these type of cases, it was more than likely sexually motivated, and we can all make this leap, as the girls clothing being remove is a good indicator. As is common in these cases, it was someone close enough to have seen at least one of the girls on occasion.
It was someone, that no one suspected. Ultimately, it was an act that was committed by a depraved individual, who although, as in most of these cased, knew it was wrong and acted anyways, and to add insult to injury, he proceeded to cut short their lives, to protect himself. It will all come out in the wash as they say. They will probably make a netflix special out of it in a few years. The real issue is that normal people want to understand. Some will claim to as there are not shortage of YT personalities who claim to know how these people become what they are. I have lived long enough to tell you that some people are just monsters.

 

[Boxer]

The one inch core sample in RAs back yard had to have been for a specific reason in the SW.
If the location was indicated by a metal detector for a small object I think the would have carefully used a shovel to find what the detector alerted to.
A core sample is more like trying to find an old burn pit location or a buried tarp or sheer of plywood.

 

[zencompass]

Good morning,

Here is the link to information/biography of the Judges of the Allen Superior Court. You will find
the information for:

The Honorable Frances C. Gull,
who is in the process of becoming the Judge in this case:

Honorable Frances C. Gull​

Criminal Division Administrative Judge

Meet the Judges | Allen Superior Court

allensuperiorcourt.us

 

[taylorss]

Has anyone listened to comparisons of “down the hill” with the minuscule snip of known-RMA audio?

Now THAT is dead-on … unlike with the sketches, which now seem like a bad joke, and the BG pics, which def look like RMA but are still hard to make out, I’m really surprised he wasn’t recognized by the audio IMO.

i don’t want to link to any comparisons cuz I can’t seem to get the rules for that right, but they’re easy to search up-

 

[Nikynoo]

The one inch core sample in RAs back yard had to have been for a specific reason in the SW.
If the location was indicated by a metal detector for a small object I think the would have carefully used a shovel to find what the detector alerted to.
A core sample is more like trying to find an old burn pit location or a buried tarp or sheer of plywood.

Do we have accesss to the search warrant? or is that sealed also?