Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - #155 *Richard Allen Arrested*

[mrjitty]

I think we can get over focussed on the felony murder thing

Many jurisdictions codified aspects of murder where intention is indirect. One of the most common is where you intended to commit GBH and the person dies, even if you didn't intend to kill them. This type of thinking has been expanded into many other situations where the accused basically assumes the risk of someone being killed.

So for example, where you are part of an armed bank robbery, but never dreamed anyone would get hurt.

 

[gizmobtj]

I disagree vehemently. If my child is murdered by a pervert,I want the world to see what perverts do. Otherwise only a small sector sees the reality of evil

And the answer to the OP's original question is, my guess, a hard no

 

[gizmobtj]

In their right mind is questionable with that one though.

So true

 

[AngTxGal]

What I meant was is it legal for a judge to clear everyone from a courtroom except for those involved in the trial. Does the trial judge have this authority? I disagree with you about allowing all spectators to see the crime scene photos. These girls suffered enough. I know they will not be in that courtroom, however, I do not think a parent/grandparent should have to suffer through the media and spectators seeing the battered bodies of their children. I do not have to see evil to know it exists. I hope we can agree to disagree.

IMO
In some trials only the judge, prosecution, defense, and jury see certain images
but the public via cameras in the courtroom does not.
Spectators in the courtroom also may see things the public via cameras does not.
The families of those murdered at Parkland saw the videos of the shootings In court, but they were not shown to the public via cameras.
Libby’s family petitioned to keep the PCA sealed, and the PC for search has not yet been released, it would follow that the families do not want images and the rest of the audio spread around on the internet. We may be wrong about what they want when this goes to trial and they find out what could help a conviction.
We all can imagine what these two girls may have endured before death and after death.
What we imagine may be less or more than reality, and crime scene photos are one things, if the murderer took images that is another
What is necessary for conviction and a fair trial is where the decision sits.

I have no interest in seeing images, IMO don‘t see how making those available to the public to feed curiosity is different than feeding creeps that prey on and pay to obtain such images. The purpose of the images is different, but no one can prevent how they would be used.
Surely the DA will seek the DP- the public’s interest would lie in making that verdict stick if he is found guilty

It would be interesting to hear from a judge, DA, or defense attorney for Capital Punishment cases, that opinion would be hard to get but highly valuable

 

[Nikynoo]

I disagree vehemently. If my child is murdered by a pervert,I want the world to see what perverts do. Otherwise only a small sector sees the reality of evil

I agree with you. I think pictures speak louder than words - the victim needs to have a voice and pictures are the only voice the victims have when they are deceased -the pictures say - 'Look what you have done to me'.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Roster of Capital (Death Penalty-qualified) attorneys - Indiana

https://ingov.sharepoint.com/sites/PDComPortal/Lists/2022%20Death%20Penalty%20List/Website%20View.aspx

Capital (Death Penalty) Attorney Roster

www.in.gov

 

[Nikynoo]

That's a real good point -- who in their right mind would not get an attorney after seeing the warrant (although he could spoken to one but not retained the person)

Perhaps he hasnt seen the PCA?

 

[The Observer]

Interesting tidbit from Richard Essex's I-Team 8 interview with Police Superintendent Doug Carter..

I-Team: Allen was charged. The statute that he is charged under, the murder charge, also indicated that he has to have committed another crime, like rape, child molestation or human trafficking. Is he charged properly?

Carter: He is, and those questions will be answered in due time, and they certainly should come from the prosecutor and not from me, but eventually when that PC (probable cause affidavit) is released that will be clear.

Source: Indiana police superintendent: Delphi murders' facts will come out at trial

 

[Jillyg]

Those would be prudent responsible actions for RA for the sake of his family.
Do we really think he is that kind of man?
I don’t think he will. So, a prudent action his wife could take would be to begin divorce proceedings so finances are split and everything they own isn’t liquidated for his legal defense.
An ego maniac may plead Not Guilty and fight down all their finances just because he can and he has just the ego to believe he has a snowball’s chance in hell to win.

Scott Reisch explains that some actions by the court may be questionable currently due to RAs current lack of representation.
I did not know that sealing the PCA meant RA could not see the evidence against him, I thought it sealed it from the public/ media.

I'm pretty sure he can see the PC.
Surely SURELY that's not sealed from him? I think this guy is saying he might need it explained. Which is a shame that legalese is so complicated that any basic average intelligent person can't understand. However if he needs it explained, then he needs to get an attny Pronto

 

[Yemelyan]

We do know that at 2:13, L's phone captured who LE has described as the man on the bridge, saying, "guys... down the hill." I don't recall the link where they discuss the video, but they also said the video is 43 seconds and "DTH" was at the very end. Does anyone have that link? Was that an HLN episode?

DC and TL have both said that "DTH" was said at the south end of the bridge, so IMO, we know at that moment, BG's intention was for them to go down the hill. And TL has said the girls were killed where they were found (Carroll County Comet Q & A). We know they were "moved and staged" per the RL PC, but that appears to mean within the very same area they were killed, not over a distance.

All that said, we really don't know anything of what happened between the end of the bridge and the place the girls bodies were found. DC recently mentioned how there are multiple access points to any rural location, so perhaps there's more to this than a straight cut walk dth and across the creek, but it's all speculation.

*Sorry, I'm not able to search for links at the moment, so any help would be appreciated.

You are correct, @TL4S

The information that the video was 43 seconds long, began at 2:13 pm and that "guys...down the hill" occurred at the very end did come from the HLN TV special "Down the Hill."

Leazenby answers that the girls were killed where they were found here: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

And was asked again about them being moved post-mortem and answers "found where they were killed" here: Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions - Carroll County Comet

To address the original question about an assault on the bridge itself, I don't think a push and a fall from the High Bridge can explain two things about the facts of the case as we know them: 1. The distance from the bridge to the place where they were found (it's upstream, against the current and up a fairly high bank, as we saw on photos from the Pharos-Tribune. I think it would be difficult to carry/drag even one of the victims this far but certainly not both of them as together their combined weight would probably have been over 300 pounds. If we confine the push and fall to the death of a single victim, then the perpetrator has to control one victim and transport the other. This seems to stretch the likelihood of what is possible, for me.

The second fact it would fail to explain is why a large amount of blood was lost at the location where the bodies were found (enough to make investigators conclude that the crime occurred there) but we've not heard evidence of blood trails or blood at any other location. Blood at the scene info comes, of course, from the RL warrant: “A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,” the FBI agent wrote.

FBI search warrant raises questions about Delphi property owner's arrest

DELPHI, Ind. (WISH) — I-Team 8 broke the news on Tuesday about an FBI search warrant that reveals new details about the Delphi murder scene and what the killer of Abby Williams and Libby German may have taken from the property. I-Team 8 has pieced together new information about Ronald Logan, the...

www.wishtv.com

 

[TL4S]

You are correct, @TL4S

The information that the video was 43 seconds long, began at 2:13 pm and that "guys...down the hill" occurred at the very end did come from the HLN TV special "Down the Hill."

Leazenby answers that the girls were killed where they were found here: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

And was asked again about them being moved post-mortem and answers "found where they were killed" here: Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions - Carroll County Comet

To address the original question about an assault on the bridge itself, I don't think a push and a fall from the High Bridge can explain two things about the facts of the case as we know them: 1. The distance from the bridge to the place where they were found (it's upstream, against the current and up a fairly high bank, as we saw on photos from the Pharos-Tribune. I think it would be difficult to carry/drag even one of the victims this far but certainly not both of them as together their combined weight would probably have been over 300 pounds. If we confine the push and fall to the death of a single victim, then the perpetrator has to control one victim and transport the other. This seems to stretch the likelihood of what is possible, for me.

The second fact it would fail to explain is why a large amount of blood was lost at the location where the bodies were found (enough to make investigators conclude that the crime occurred there) but we've not heard evidence of blood trails or blood at any other location. Blood at the scene info comes, of course, from the RL warrant: “A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,” the FBI agent wrote.

FBI search warrant raises questions about Delphi property owner's arrest

DELPHI, Ind. (WISH) — I-Team 8 broke the news on Tuesday about an FBI search warrant that reveals new details about the Delphi murder scene and what the killer of Abby Williams and Libby German may have taken from the property. I-Team 8 has pieced together new information about Ronald Logan, the...

www.wishtv.com

Thank you @Yemelyan!

 

[Jillyg]

Not only do we finally have a suspect behind bars, but we also have his DNA profile in CODIS.

In the coming months, I expect to see more charges from open cases in other jurisdictions. It's only a matter of time, IMO.

Imo, i think of there had been a match to any other crime, we'd be getting hints at it now. Especially if it's in another jurisdiction

 

[steeltowngirl]

The photo of Abby on the bridge. Do we know who came forward with the screenshot? It was posted to Snapchat, so self deleted?

Wondering if this photo was edited (either by friend or by LE). Thoughts?

It took me awhile to find it, but Arika Gibson discusses receiving the Snapchat photo, starting at about 9:00 in Chapter 3 of Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders.

‎Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders: Chapter 3: A Picture & A Search Warrant on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders, Ep Chapter 3: A Picture & A Search Warrant - Feb 12, 2020

podcasts.apple.com

 

[CSIDreamer]

Is there a chance RA - if guilty - could be incompetent for execution under the Eight Amendment?

Unless this crime is what many of us have thought, which is a wider conspiracy, a “sick predator”, and thus quite likely he has other offences, as in if it was a wild psychotic one-off and he actually doesn’t remember it etc etc, perhaps there is something very wrong in this person’s head.

Just being devil’s advocate here. Personally from the photos and videos I’ve seen of him I strongly believe he has the empty affect displayed by true psychopaths (as opposed to sociopaths), and the little we do know about the crime suggests he could be that “sick predator”, but there’s all this other background fluff which leaves a small window of doubt in my mind. Plus there’s the information vacuum which is rapidly being filled by those of us outside the LE agencies involved. Who knows.

The fact he’s gone this long without a lawyer makes me think perhaps he’s gone mute. Or perhaps as others suggested he is a major addict and is detoxing. Either way this window of inaction on his part either could be indicative of - or maybe used as a way to innocuously suggest - some form of insanity.

But then, as a relatively sane person myself, I can’t imagine being in his shoes right now and thinking “damn I gotta beat the death penalty, loads to live for.”

JMO. Thinking out loud.

I'm not sure we're going to know if he has a lawyer or not right now with the way everything is sealed.

Here's a for instance:

His mycase clearly says $20 million bail/bond. Yet a reporter shows a screenshot (and says prosecutor confirmed) of no bail/bond.

I honestly don't see anything different about him.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I'm pretty sure he can see the PC.
Surely SURELY that's not sealed from him? I think this guy is saying he might need it explained. Which is a shame that legalese is so complicated that any basic average intelligent person can't understand. However if he needs it explained, then he needs to get an attny Pronto

I understand Reisch to be saying as a practical matter, it is difficult for an accused to access charges/evidence against him without representation, because he is being moved between jails.

 

[Nikynoo]

That's a real good point -- who in their right mind would not get an attorney after seeing the warrant (although he could spoken to one but not retained the person)

I can't understand how he didn't run, unless the search warrant was 'vanilla'.

 

[K9Enzo]

The 43-second video (down the hill) recovered from LE - LE only released a tiny snippet to the public - I don't remember if the girl's family heard the entire video or if it was also kept from them. Does anyone know? imo

 

[infinit]

The 43-second video (down the hill) recovered from LE - LE only released a tiny snippet to the public - I don't remember if the girl's family heard the entire video or if it was also kept from them. Does anyone know? imo

Yeah, they heard it.

 

[mrjitty]

Perhaps he hasnt seen the PCA?

Seems he may not have. He would have been told the basic charge in his appearance.

 

[Jillyg]

Perhaps he hasnt seen the PCA?

I am almost positive that that can't happen (legally) in the u.s.

I'm not sure we're going to know if he has a lawyer or not right now with the way everything is sealed.

Here's a for instance:

His mycase clearly says $20 million bail/bond. Yet a reporter shows a screenshot (and says prosecutor confirmed) of no bail/bond.

I honestly don't see anything different about him.

JMO

Will you share that ss please?

Why are they still saying no bond? They've had plenty of time to fix it in the system so someone isn't being forthcoming