Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

[m00c0w]

Joseph Scott Morgan, help!!

To my knowledge, and PLEASE someone correct me if you have information, ejecting an unspent round from a magazine leaves no marks that conclusively tie it to a specific magazine or a specific gun. In fact, I have an extra clip for each of my handguns. I've ejected rounds from my extra clips without those clips ever coming in contact with the guns, not with those rounds in it. Exactly when was this round discovered? Was his gun registered? It took how many years to narrow down a suspect list, and they had this bullet?? That makes no sense. Rounds don't just jump unspent out of a clip. No gun shot was heard. And a suppressor, in my very novice opinion, would render a round useless for comparison without having the gun and the suppressor. Even if a comparison could be made, what bloody idiot keeps a murder weapon and puts it back in its usual spot?

Nothing about his behavior is indicative of guilt, behavior in 2017 or 2022. On the other hand, the secrecy insisted upon by the state, contending that minors would be at risk even if the redacted PCA was released, leaves much to be desired. IMOO, evidence in the PCA was so thin, I don't see how the search warrant was secured in the first place. Further, if their PC was so strong, why did they need to wait, what, 10 days after executing the search to arrest him? (Especially when a witness now comes forward to say she saw a man "resembling" RA walking toward a car "resembling" the Ford Focus he owned.) Now that the 5'8"-5'10" suspect is revealed to be a 5'4" male who doesn't look a thing like either sketch, how is it that people suddenly have such a clear recollection that that are certain they saw RA? And RA's memory is the one with which some people take issue? How many times since 2017 did his accusers hear his voice, see his face?

And the more they keep saying it was a good idea to release both sketches and that the case is still very active, the more innocent RA appears. This case has been one Charlie Foxtrot after another. I hope they've got a mountain of evidence; otherwise, Mr. and Mrs. RA are going to own Carroll County. Equally tragic would be the justice delayed for A,L and their families.

Thanks for the information.

So if there's already around in the chamber, and the user "draws the slide," then the bullet that is in the chamber is ejected, and a different round goes into the chamber?

Do you know of any visual aids that would make the process clear? I've never owned a gun, so I'm not clear on where the bullet is being ejected from. Does it pop out the back of the gun, towards the user? I'm wondering how feasible it is that RA could have ejected a round without noticing that he had done so.

Yes - the ejection is from the side of the gun - so it ejects away from a right hander.

This is not something you do by accident. You work the slide with the intention to eject a faulty round and reload, or to clear the chamber of ammo

Coincidentally, I happen to have a .40 S&W Sig P226... Kind of feels a little weird now. But:

The full firearm with magazine ejected:


Firearm loaded with extractor circled (and serial blacked out):


Close-up of extractor hooking onto the flared end of an unspent round (circled):


The extractor theoretically leaves tool marks on the unspent round that are unique to that extractor and firearm, especially if it is an older firearm that has very unique extractor wear from years of use.

JMO

 

[gizmobtj]

Carter always seemed genuine and I don't see in a million years him not being confident enough to put RA away and risk putting the family members through all of this for nothing. I just don't see it. I think they have plenty more. And remember he was not against releasing the PCA.

Genuine and the best intentions, but it doesn't make you right

 

[Yemelyan]

That reconstruction video highlights the massive problem that is lurking for the defence in the police interview IMO. The PCA alludes to this trainwreck.

Trail walking woman sees a guy resembling Bridge Guy on the bridge from 50 feet, before turning back, and seeing the victims. It will be established at trial, IMO, that she must have seen Bridge guy. Keep in mind each evidential fact does not have to be established beyond reasonable doubt. Remember that Trail woman does not encounter RA on the path, nor does RA report seeing her. This is crucial.

The victims now proceed down the 'flight path' to Bridge Guy. Realistically no one else can be between them, as Trail Woman sweeps the path.

At the same time, RA, rather foolishly, admits to seeing the 3 girls. This puts him on the 'flight path" to be at the bridge, dressed like bridge guy, at approximately the time Trail Woman will see Bridge Guy.

So here are the obvious problems.

1. If RA retraced his steps from the Bridge, how can RA get off the victims "flight path" without seeing them?

2. Where can RA have been if Trail Woman did not see him, but saw the 'real killer'

3. If Trail Woman somehow saw RA and mixed him up with the real killer, where did RA go, in order for Bridge Guy to get on to the Bridge, and the victims to advance down the trail, without RA seeing any of them?

This is where Law Enforcement have tripped him up IMO, most likely by selectively revealing the witnesses info to wreck his story, after he already admits he went on the trail and walked back (reading between the lines IMO).

The defence version will need to be item 3 - that Trail Woman saw RA on the bridge (where else could he be). This is the only way for her to see him, but him not to see her. He must be on the bridge. But now he has to get off it before the victims get there, so real Bridge Guy can get there, appearing from behind the victims direction of travel.

Therefore, the victims will meet him on the trail before when he retraces his steps ----> he must see the victims, unless he somehow went off the trail, or they did.

Admitting to seeing the 3 girls back in 2017 is fatal, because it puts him on the Bridge for Trail woman to see. But she also must have seen Bridge Guy - proving RA is Bridge Guy.

The only way out of this is fanciful stories about how the victims somehow didn't go directly to the bridge, allow RA a moment to slip past.

But my guess is RA has flubbed the interview when confronted with these problems. They will have encouraged him to commit to a version, before selectively revealing their cards, and inviting him to elaborate.

In the PCA, they just say there is no way for him to get out other than as muddy/bloody guy - but the evidential problem is going to be how he evolved his story of getting out.

Great post. You just highlighted something which many people fail to see. The importance of police holding back investigative info EVEN IF the case appears cold or stalled. Without holding back info about the what the witnesses saw, the timeline, and of course the round - all things that some people clamored to know - they would likely not have been able to trip him up so neatly.

 

[rainwaterstill]

I feel pretty much like I've felt after any announcement with this case...Is that all there is?! in the minds of a jury.

Stay positive, Remember LE is not going to publicize everything they know/have. The absolute last thing they and the prosecutor's office want is for the perp(s) to walk free on a technicality or to create "reasonable doubt".

MOO- I firmly believe they are lining up a lot of iron-clad, appeal-proof ducks as far as evidence goes. Then, during the trial, they are going to slam-dunk those ducks through the hoop. MOO.

 

[Megnut]

Coincidentally, I happen to have a .40 S&W Sig P226... Kind of feels a little weird now. But:

The full firearm with magazine ejected:
View attachment 384414

Firearm loaded with extractor circled (and serial blacked out):
View attachment 384413

Close-up of extractor hooking onto the flared end of an unspent round (circled):
View attachment 384412

The extractor theoretically leaves tool marks on the unspent round that are unique to that extractor and firearm, especially if it is an older firearm that has very unique extractor wear from years of use.

JMO

Also, if LE was able to locate another unspent bullet from the accused's property, if the markings on the two bullets matched, that would be hard to refute, no?

JMO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Coincidentally, I happen to have a .40 S&W Sig P226... Kind of feels a little weird now. But:

The full firearm with magazine ejected:
View attachment 384414

Firearm loaded with extractor circled (and serial blacked out):
View attachment 384413

Close-up of extractor hooking onto the flared end of an unspent round (circled):
View attachment 384412

The extractor theoretically leaves tool marks on the unspent round that are unique to that extractor and firearm, especially if it is an older firearm that has very unique extractor wear from years of use.

JMO

I've only had Glocks but my understanding of markings on an ejected round, is that they may not be exclusively from the extractor, that the magazine, and feeding of ammo from magazine to chamber may also be a factor.

Module 09 :: Examination of Unfired Ammunition

projects.nfstc.org

Based on these microscopic marks, it may be possible to state that unfired ammunition was

• loaded into and extracted from a particular firearm,
• loaded into and removed from a magazine integral to or associated with a given firearm.

 

[everybodhi]

I realize many of us want answers and curious to how things played out in this case. That being said, we all have to realize there is more evidence in this case then was released in the recently released PC dox. For those who do not know,PC stands Probable Cause. It does not stand for BARD or Beyond A Reasonable Doubt which is required to CONVICT the defendant during TRIAL..and its not supposed too !!!

The PC dox are the prosecutions way of convincing a grand jury they have ENOUGH PROBABLE evidence to CHARGE a defendant with a crime and put him on trial.They do no present ALL of the evidence.
Here is how it works:
Prosecutor to Grand Jury : "We found this bullit that matches the accused gun,we have eyewitnesses at the scene who place accused at scene, we have statement from accused admitting his presence at the scene at the time of the murders,the clothes the accused stated he was wearing matches the clothes the man in the video was wearing, the accused and man in video who said"down the hill " both have the same body type.
IF you the grand jury give us chance to put this man on trial we feel we have enough evidence in TOTAL to convict the accused at trial so take a look at what we showed you and please give us that chance to prove his guilt BARD"

Grand Jury : "After reviewing the prosecutions PC evidence we believe there is enough PROBABLE CAUSE Evidence to put the defendant on trial and let both side provide evidence that point to guilt or innocence and let 12 people decide the outcome"

I do not think ANYONE here would disagree they did no present enough evidence to convict RA in the PC dox ...BUT... they did present enough to put RA on trial for these crimes....which as I previously stated is the main reason for a PC hearing.

I would hope people would stop "trying" the entire case based on whats in PC dox as its like trying to solve a mystery novel by only reading the front and back cover.
.

True, but I’m not sure a grand jury was involved.
Unlike some states, Indiana prosecutors are not required to use a grand jury in order to charge a person with a crime.
A prosecutor may bring charges by indictment or information.

 

[mrjitty]

Also, if LE was able to locate another unspent bullet from the accused's property, if the markings on the two bullets matched, that would be hard to refute, no?

JMO

I believe they will have ejected bullets from the gun under test conditions and compared results

 

[MissUnderstood]

Blame game. CCSO is the proper investigating agency, with support from ISP and FBI. The CCSO is has really not been professional and this gigantic error is the result of that.
This is not a lost “tip” per se, but a failure to follow police procedure and faithfully use a crime flow map, and timeline checklist. “The FBI” did it is a convenient cop out and cover.

ITA, I would think that police would have interviewed all witnesses that were at the bridge that day, and followed up with all the people, like the CO. When the video came out, the CO that took RA statement didn’t go to police and say hey, I interviewed a guy that was on the bridge that day that looks like the video. No one had a list of the people on the trail? This is a mistake made by not one person and not one agency, this is a collaboration of fail. They had him the next day and let him go. This is not a filing error, and saying it is nothing more than CYA. The people of this town and the girls family should be angry, and deserve to be angry. Moo

 

[Kell1]

To answer a previous question as to why Allen chose the .40 there could be any number of reasons, as a former LEO I can tell you its a great round for self protection, balistically similar to the .9mm but produces bigger wound channel however , its not a hard firearm to control but they usually have slightly less capacity.

They why, is the same as why anyone chooses, anything, remember theres no such thing as a "friendly" bullet to a target. Most often its familiarity, preference for a more powerful round or just simple availability.

My feeling however, is because they are pretty cheap right now , as most Law enforcement organizations have shifted away from it for several reasons, (For es the FBI who commissioned the creation of the round, have gone back to the 9mm) so theres plenty of them on the market , and you can buy a used forearm at a pretty decent price, and though ammo is expensive in all calibers anymore .40 is slightly lower depending on the brand.

 

[Kell1]

Also, if LE was able to locate another unspent bullet from the accused's property, if the markings on the two bullets matched, that would be hard to refute, no?

JMO

They could simply chamber a round then rack it out to check the markings on that round to see if they match.

 

[newredtabby]

Thanks for the information.

So if there's already around in the chamber, and the user "draws the slide," then the bullet that is in the chamber is ejected, and a different round goes into the chamber?

Do you know of any visual aids that would make the process clear? I've never owned a gun, so I'm not clear on where the bullet is being ejected from. Does it pop out the back of the gun, towards the user? I'm wondering how feasible it is that RA could have ejected a round without noticing that he had done so.

As the slide moves back, the chambered round is ejected, then as the slide moves forward a new round is drawn from the magazine and chambered. This can be done by hand (racking the slide) or happens automatically (by the mechanical design of the gun) when the chambered bullet is fired (expended).

 

[Elley Mae]

Coincidentally, I happen to have a .40 S&W Sig P226... Kind of feels a little weird now. But:

The full firearm with magazine ejected:
View attachment 384414

Firearm loaded with extractor circled (and serial blacked out):
View attachment 384413

Close-up of extractor hooking onto the flared end of an unspent round (circled):
View attachment 384412

The extractor theoretically leaves tool marks on the unspent round that are unique to that extractor and firearm, especially if it is an older firearm that has very unique extractor wear from years of use.

JMO

And iirc RA has had that weapon for a number of years, like 2006.

Jmo

Jmo Doesn’t mean he fired it often.

 

[newredtabby]

Coincidentally, I happen to have a .40 S&W Sig P226... Kind of feels a little weird now. But:

The full firearm with magazine ejected:
View attachment 384414

Firearm loaded with extractor circled (and serial blacked out):
View attachment 384413

Close-up of extractor hooking onto the flared end of an unspent round (circled):
View attachment 384412

The extractor theoretically leaves tool marks on the unspent round that are unique to that extractor and firearm, especially if it is an older firearm that has very unique extractor wear from years of use.

JMO

This is a great visual. I will add, it also shows how sketchy the science of identifying these marks could be. The "unique" markings of the extractor pin would theoretically be caused from firing multiple rounds, over time. The trouble is, a stainless steel extractor pin would not be significantly worn by brass casings. Brass is a WAY softer metal then steel. Of course, not all casings are brass, but still......

 

[mitzy]

I was just thinking about how all this time there has been so much debate over what was on BG’s head. I couldn’t decide myself. And now when I look at the unenhanced video, it seems so obvious to me that he is wearing a beanie hat with a hood behind his head. The enhanced video obscures this to the point it is more confusing imo.

Perhaps it’s the existence of these photos making me see this. But to me, this all matches perfectly now. MOO

Edit: illustrated what I see now

RA is all I see now when I look at the video. Once I had a face to compare to the video stills, it just fit. I wonder if people in his circle ever wondered about it. Denial is a pretty strong thing.

But you can see his nose and chin and beard. It’s crazy how he was right there all those years.

 

[Elley Mae]

Iirc weapons are test fired before being sold, not sure if casings are kept for comparison or included with gun when sold.

 

[Elley Mae]

Hope this is ok to post, it’s a great site for handgun comparison.

Visually Compare Pistol And Revolver Dimensions, Weight, Capacity, And More | Handgun Hero

Handgun Hero lets you visually compare any two handguns side-by-side. Compare old pistols vs new pistols, pocket revolvers vs subcompacts, or anything else.

www.handgunhero.com

 

[newredtabby]

Iirc weapons are test fired before being sold, not sure if casings are kept for comparison or included with gun when sold.

By law, they MUST be test fired before sale. One expended casing is included with the gun, and one is kept for future comparison purposes. IMO

 

[taylorss]

there’s such a ?? hanging over the issue of RA’s 2017 conversation with the CO & when/ how it went down
here’s how RA’s defense team described it In yesterday’s press release:

“The police did not contact Rick after Libby German and Abby Williams went missing, rather Rick contacted the police and voluntarily discussed being on the trail that day… Rick volunteered to meet with a Conservation Officer outside of the local grocery store to offer up details of his trip to the trail on the day in question… Rick does not recall if this interaction with the Conservation Officer was tape-recorded but believes that the Conservation Officer scribbled notes on a notepad as Rick spoke to him.”

Based on this & the little other info available, I’d speculate (MOO, speculation only) that RA ran into this CO at “the local grocery store” while they were both shopping. RA lives near the trails & claims to spend lots of time on them - guessing maybe this CO was someone RA saw regularly & knew socially. I can imagine RA let slip in conversation that he’d been on the trails that day. Hearing this, maybe the CO said ‘oh wow, let me note that story & put it in just in case they want more info from you. Let’s just step outside a moment to get some quiet & privacy, & I’ll make some notes for the file.’

JMO that’s I how can imagine that going down. RA’s attys imply it was more formal & deliberate than that - EG “Rick volunteered to meet with a Conservation Officer” - but no info-seeking interview with a potential witness is going to be formally arranged for “outside of the local grocery store” IMO

In this thinking, RA didn’t necessarily ever plan to tell his story to LE & most likely wasn’t prepared to & hadn’t thought about what he would & wouldn’t say.

So if RA’s “report” happened due to a random encounter at the grocery store, it most likely wasn’t on Feb 13 2017, day of girls’ disappearance, MOO
- only so many hours left on 2/13, once RA was done cleaning off the mud & blood etc, for him to run out to the store JMO
- & gotta think most if not all COs would’ve been on duty or at least on alert while the girls were missing in the trails, not grocery shopping JMO

If RA’s “report” wasn’t taken immediately after the crime, it seems like any CO / LEO who was even remotely involved in the investigation would NOT have ended the “tip narrative” with the note ‘who were the three girls?’ as the answer would’ve already been known & factored in MOO … this again undermines the claim that RA made any actual attempt to contribute to the investigation, cuz if so he’d have “volunteered” himself to someone who was actually involved…

All my own speculation & JMO

ETA - link to RA atty press release
D press release

 

[Elley Mae]

Odd that RA would meet conservation officer at grocery store, looks like two in town. One store is like a block north of cvs.