Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[Ozoner]

Of course I could be wrong. As I recall Dennis Radar (BTK) didn't have a criminal record before he was finally caught.

What we know about serial killers is based upon what we've learned about the ones who were caught. There have been many, many unapprehended serial killers about whom we know nothing. It could be that many of the more successful serial killers—the ones who are never caught—tend to be more like RA: "family" men who are able to fly under the radar.

 

[JosieMae]

Maybe the mods need to point out yet again there is a KK thread?

It’s ridiculous that more time is spent discussing a man who has never been charged in relations to these killings on this thread.


This should be about RA who has literally placed himself at the crime scene and has been charged with two counts of murder.

YES!!!

RBBM.

One day more evidence implicating RA will be revealed and Occam's Razor will triumph once more. Include me in the group that believes any discussion regarding the despicable KK (and RL for that matter) should take place elsewhere.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I don't think having him identified as a suspect is necessary. I think that if he was in contact with Libby, had CSAM and was identified because of the Delphi case that's enough to make the arguement

With nothing to connect KAK to the crime scene or even the bridge/trails that day, the fact that he had prior contact with one of the victims is not enough to argue he qualifies as a "suspect" in the murders. LE certainly did not call him a suspect for that crime, and the definition to be used on WB's, I believe, is that LE stated they were a suspect.

But I disagree. He most surely was or is a suspect in some aspect of the case. What we do know, from the Murder Sheet-obtained interview transcript, is that he was, at some point, suspected of being involved. It's all potentially exculpatory evidence that would have to be turned over. Regardless of whether the cops were lying or not, evidence could be introduced from his interview that says Libby was in touch with the anthony_shots account and he and other mystery men were involved in that account

"Add to that: KK and RL were identified as suspects"

You literally said that they were identified as suspects. That is not true.
Murder Sheets has the same transcript that we all have access to. Whatever MS says on a podcast is hearsay and the contents of the interview are not evidence, they are the interrogation/questions asked of a suspect.

 

[Ozoner]

There is no reasonable doubt - he has literally placed himself at the crime scene. When the man’s gun bullet casing is between two dead girls and he has admitted he was on the bridge and dressed as BG then reasonable doubt goes out the window moo

One man seen in the lead up to the murders and one man has admitted to be there around the same time the girls arrived on the bridge.

Not so fast. We have not had a chance to view the evidence that RA's gun is the only one in which the cartridge could have been chambered. That is the opinion of law enforcement's experts, and it may well be correct, but it would be premature to accept that conclusion before the evidence has been presented in open court and fully vetted.

I believe that RA is most likely the perp, but no one should be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt YET with the limited amount of information that's been made public.

 

[gizmobtj]

My thoughts are that the casing found in between the girls is not necessarily hard evidence against RA, but against whomever was standing there holding the gun. Is it likely him? Yes. We know he was on the bridge that day. But it’s not 100% proof that RA himself shot the gun. MOO

But why are we so sure the casing was placed there at, and not before, the killings?

 

[Gemmie]

My thoughts are that the casing found in between the girls is not necessarily hard evidence against RA, but against whomever was standing there holding the gun. Is it likely him? Yes. We know he was on the bridge that day. But it’s not 100% proof that RA himself shot the gun. MOO

He didn't shoot the gun. It was unspent, meaning unfired.

An Indiana State Police laboratory analysis of Allen's gun reveals the unfired bullet was at one point, loaded in the chamber and had extraction marks on it.

"When the slide comes back like this, a round is extracted from the chamber with what's called an extractor, which is like a little claw that actually hooks on to this protruding rear edge of the cartridge, pulls it out, and then the injectors sort of kicks it out of the ejection port,"

Gun expert and defense attorney break down new details in Delphi murder case

One of the largest areas of focus in the Delphi investigation is a single unspent bullet found near the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017.

www.wrtv.com

 

[getthefax]

My thoughts are that the casing found in between the girls is not necessarily hard evidence against RA, but against whomever was standing there holding the gun. Is it likely him? Yes. We know he was on the bridge that day. But it’s not 100% proof that RA himself shot the gun. MOO

The gun was NOT fired. It was ejected from unfired /unspent from the weapon and has ejection markings consistent with RA’s gun.

The PCA has all of this information in it.

Read the redacted Richard Allen court documents tying him to the Delphi murders

DELPHI, Ind. — On Tuesday, Judge Frances Gull ordered a redacted probable cause affidavit released to the public that details the investigation and arrest of Richard Allen in connection to the murd…

fox59.com

 

[Laura456]

If a gun jams, is that considered not fired?

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Can you (or anyone) please explain why a search warrant doesn't equal being named a suspect? I'm not challenging your statement, I truly would like to understand and I'm drawing a huge blank.

Thanks

Below, I'll quote this post, which, IMO, is an excellent explanation. The repeated use and posting of the RL warrant and/or the interrogation of KAK, is being referred to, IMO, as evidence to support certain positions. The documents' contents do not stand on their own as evidence. LE was conducting an investigation and due diligence meant searching RL's property. Enough cause to get a search warrant is a completely different standard than naming a suspect.

With all due respect, I believe that this comment reflects a lack of familiarity with the way that search warrants are written. Nothing in the warrant can be taken to mean that investigators personally believed that RL was the perpetrator of the crime, only that he was one person of interest who needed to be investigated further as part of those investigators' due diligence.

Search warrants are not meant to be an impartial summary of the facts. They are ALWAYS slanted in such a way as to obtain a signature from a judge—full stop. They are not even minimally objective.

If we saw ten different search warrants related to ten different suspects in this case, each warrant would make each of those suspects appear equally guilty.

All of the chatter on YouTube, Reddit, etc. about Ron Logan's guilt is coming from inexperienced people with weak critical thinking skills—people who lack the ability to read a warrant for what it is. What scares the bejesus out of me is that most of those people are allowed to serve on juries in our current system.

 

[Gemmie]

Below, I'll quote this post, which, IMO, is an excellent explanation. The repeated use and posting of the RL warrant and/or the interrogation of KAK, is being referred to, IMO, as evidence to support certain positions. The documents' contents do not stand on their own as evidence. LE was conducting an investigation and due diligence meant searching RL's property. Enough cause to get a search warrant is a completely different standard than naming a suspect.

Thank you for taking the time to educate me.

 

[Laughing]

If a gun jams, is that considered not fired?

When fired, the bullet & the casing are both ejected -- the bullet through the barrel, the casing as planned by the manufacturer.

An actual mis-fire leaves you with a rather dangerous firearm that must be cleared with great care.

Where is a jam suggested?

A slide is more likely to be jammed on a pistol (that probably needs to be cleaned) than a misfire in a Sig-Sauer imho.

 

[rainbowshummingbird]

But why are we so sure the casing was placed there at, and not before, the killings?

RA told LE he had never been to the property where the round was recovered. Also, RA said that he had never loaned his gun to others. If the casing marks demonstrate a high likelihood of coming from his weapon, then he was present at the location where the decedents were found.

 

[Gemmie]

RA told LE he had never been to the property where the round was recovered. Also, RA said that he had never loaned his gun to others. If the casing marks demonstrate a high likelihood of coming from his weapon, then he was present at the location where the decedents were found.

I believe the lab determined that it did.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[gizmobtj]

With nothing to connect KAK to the crime scene or even the bridge/trails that day, the fact that he had prior contact with one of the victims is not enough to argue he qualifies as a "suspect" in the murders. LE certainly did not call him a suspect for that crime, and the definition to be used on WB's, I believe, is that LE stated they were a suspect.

"Add to that: KK and RL were identified as suspects"

You literally said that they were identified as suspects. That is not true.
Murder Sheets has the same transcript that we all have access to. Whatever MS says on a podcast is hearsay and the contents of the interview are not evidence, they are the interrogation/questions asked of a suspect.

The interview can be entered as evidence. All the defense has to do is call the investigators or KAK to the stand. They could say they lied to KAK but there is no reason it could not be used to plant doubt. LE flat out says in the transcript "its either it's ... it's all you or it's you and someone else."

I am not referring to what Murder Sheet said about the transcript but what the transcript says, inter alia:

1. Page 125, Line 16 to Page 126, Line 6 -- KAK admits he talked to Libby

2. Page 126, Line 16 to Page 128, Line 128 - LE says Libby added him on Instagram

3. Page 128, Line 8 to Page 129, Line 7 -- he admits to searching multiple sites on the investigation, including this Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide and this, where he listens to the audio recording 6 times, New details in Delphi killings to be released

4. Page 131, Line 22 -- the investigator says KAK spoke to Libby on the day of her murder

5. Page 133, Line 19 to Page 134, Line 17 -- the investigator talks about a picture he sent Libby but at the bottom of the page KAK says someone from the anthony_shots account was speaking to Libby but they catch him in a lie because they read him a Line sent to her from the account that he said "I would say that to every one of those girls."

6. Page 136, the investigators say Libby and "they" sent him a photo while they were at a sleepover.

7. Page 137, Line 1 to 3, LE says "... it's a fact you're communicating to [Libby] multiple days, at a time... including up to the day she went missing, right before"

8. Page 137, Line 11 to 16, LE says someone logged in and out of the anthony_shots account multiple times on different devices at KAK's home starting at 8 am on Feb. 13, the day of the murders

9. Page 138, Line 23 to Page 139, 15. LE says to a girl who was friends with Libby that KAK admits to speaking to said "that Anthony Shots was meeting up with Liberty German"

10. Page 140. Line 140, says the account wrote to Libby's friend, "Yeah, we were supposed to meet but she never showed up"

11. Page 147. Line 13, KAK admits talking to Libby again

12. Page 153, Line 23 to Page 154, Line 7 - LE notes KAK's dad's is friends with Abby's mothers friends on Facebook and KAK's girlfriend is friends with one of Libby's ex-boyfriends

13. Page 154, Lines 9 to Lines 20 -- LE says the sleepover Libby was at was with a family that KAK knows

14. Page 156, Line 5 to 14, LE says KAK lied about when he last talked to Libby and then says "We have these grooming pictures. We have the money. The Anthony Shots money account going to [Libby]."

15. Page 158, Lines 2 to 6 - LE says KAK was sending Snapchats to Libby after he searched for a articles about her death

16. Page 159, Lines 2 to 5 - LE says KAK failed his polygraph on the Delphi murders and, then, went home and deleted his Snapchat and Instagram and then searched for "how long does DNA last"

17. Page 184, Line 23 to Page 15, Line 3 - LE says multiple witnesses say Libby was "looking to meet up" with "Anthony Shots"

18. Page 66, Lines 4 to 6:

LE: ""... it's either its ... it's all you or it's you and someone else"

KAK: "Right"

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Tx-statement-Kegan-Kline-10-19-2-FINAL-VERSION-Redacted-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj3mKyJoJH8AhVGEFkFHS4yDiMQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UCec4pq8ZIE22ETk6MKZ3

 

[getthefax]

If a gun jams, is that considered not fired?

If the gun jams, and doesn’t ignite the gunpowder and jettison the bullet out through the barrel, the bullet remains unspent.

 

[Arkay]

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

Everyone who has a "criminal history of violence" had to have a first crime. This may be RA's first crime, or his first crime where he got caught, or his tenth crime, or his one and only crime.

IMO, the fact that he has no criminal history ON RECORD doesn't mean he's innocent.

He screwed up any alibi by saying he'd never loaned his gun to anybody. How would someone get a bullet from his gun, have it racked through RA's gun that he said he never loaned to anyone, and have that racked bullet with his gun's ejector marks placed between the two dead girls?

IMO the obvious is obvious.

 

[getthefax]

This doesn’t add up through as for example if they have found RA by phone tracking then they would need to mention that in the search for the property I would of thought?

Look at RL they literally had what they were looking for in the warrent.


The facts are they stumbled across his old statement and it grew from there. There is no KK grassing him up it literally would be in the probable cause imo

Edited by me for clarity.

I could be wrong, but I think all they need for a SW or PCA is enough information to convince a judge that they have probable cause to search (SW) or to arrest the person (PCA), respectively. They can add additional information to the case later on (which they will have to share with the defense during discovery). But I don’t think they are obligated to disclose all the evidence they have at that time IF what they present to the judge is enough.

 

[Boxer]

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

It’s a clear cut case.
He was the man on the bridge. Microscopic Tool marks are strong evidence.
And history of violence is likely but really has no bearing on the face of clear evidence.
MOO So many of the cold cases solved by DNA have been a kind of killer called “one and done.” A killer with a regular life that commits one murder(s). MOO I don’t see a history of violence as having bearing.

 

[iamnotagolem]

The interview can be entered as evidence. All the defense has to do is call the investigators or KAK to the stand. They could say they lied to KAK but there is no reason it could not be used to plant doubt. LE flat out says in the transcript "its either it's ... it's all you or it's you and someone else."

I am not referring to what Murder Sheet said about the transcript but what the transcript says, inter alia:

1. Page 125, Line 16 to Page 126, Line 6 -- KAK admits he talked to Libby

2. Page 126, Line 16 to Page 128, Line 128 - LE says Libby added him on Instagram

3. Page 128, Line 8 to Page 129, Line 7 -- he admits to searching multiple sites on the investigation, including this Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide and this, where he listens to the audio recording 6 times, New details in Delphi killings to be released

4. Page 131, Line 22 -- the investigator says KAK spoke to Libby on the day of her murder

5. Page 133, Line 19 to Page 134, Line 17 -- the investigator talks about a picture he sent Libby but at the bottom of the page KAK says someone from the anthony_shots account was speaking to Libby but they catch him in a lie because they read him a Line sent to her from the account that he said "I would say that to every one of those girls."

6. Page 136, the investigators say Libby and "they" sent him a photo while they were at a sleepover.

7. Page 137, Line 1 to 3, LE says "... it's a fact you're communicating to [Libby] multiple days, at a time... including up to the day she went missing, right before"

8. Page 137, Line 11 to 16, LE says someone logged in and out of the anthony_shots account multiple times on different devices at KAK's home starting at 8 am on Feb. 13, the day of the murders

9. Page 138, Line 23 to Page 139, 15. LE says to a girl who was friends with Libby that KAK admits to speaking to said "that Anthony Shots was meeting up with Liberty German"

10. Page 140. Line 140, says the account wrote to Libby's friend, "Yeah, we were supposed to meet but she never showed up"

11. Page 147. Line 13, KAK admits talking to Libby again

12. Page 153, Line 23 to Page 154, Line 7 - LE notes KAK's dad's is friends with Abby's mothers friends on Facebook and KAK's girlfriend is friends with one of Libby's ex-boyfriends

13. Page 154, Lines 9 to Lines 20 -- LE says the sleepover Libby was at was with a family that KAK knows

14. Page 156, Line 5 to 14, LE says KAK lied about when he last talked to Libby and then says "We have these grooming pictures. We have the money. The Anthony Shots money account going to [Libby]."

15. Page 158, Lines 2 to 6 - LE says KAK was sending Snapchats to Libby after he searched for a articles about her death

16. Page 159, Lines 2 to 5 - LE says KAK failed his polygraph on the Delphi murders and, then, went home and deleted his Snapchat and Instagram and then searched for "how long does DNA last"

17. Page 184, Line 23 to Page 15, Line 3 - LE says multiple witnesses say Libby was "looking to meet up" with "Anthony Shots"

18. Page 66, Lines 4 to 6:

LE: ""... it's either its ... it's all you or it's you and someone else"

KAK: "Right"

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Tx-statement-Kegan-Kline-10-19-2-FINAL-VERSION-Redacted-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj3mKyJoJH8AhVGEFkFHS4yDiMQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UCec4pq8ZIE22ETk6MKZ3

That’s the transcript from the interview, which is far different than evidence or a case file. They can say whatever they want to KAK but he’s not a suspect in this case, which is why he has his own thread where this conversation should be taking place. You can discuss him as a suspect in Libby & Abby’s murders there but since he’s not a suspect in this case, we try to keep the conversation focused on the man arrested for the murders, RA.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

The second thing is his sentence was modified on 01/16/2018, when he was released and placed on home detention. It's all in his case file 08D01-1704-F6-000024

RSBM

This was also around the time (February 2018) that a quick claim deed transfer took place on RL’s property.
Such an odd thing to have happened.

mOO