Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #162

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MistyWaters said:
I’m in a melancholy mode reflecting back over time, how speculation has driven this case to be essentially solved several times.

Initially it was RL, his blue jacket, walking with hands in his pockets, maybe the arrest for parole violation was simply to buy time for building murder charges against him? Back in the day discussion was very heated, some were so utterly convinced it was him, had the PC for the search been released the threads here would’ve been burning red hot!

Next came DN and alleged proof came from various direction that it must be him, this went on it seemed for the longest while. Surely he was camping out under the bridge, discovered the girls and no doubt the murder was committed with an axe?

JBC was next on the conviction list as his self-incriminating FB posts were as much an irrefutable confession there could ever be. Trial by FB, no other evidenced required.

And then not to overlook DC’s frequent biblical references? Was he deliberately leaking subtle clues that a leading suspect was closely associated to religion?

Then of course KAK, IMO a nobody who thrived on the negative attention he gained through the possibility he was directly or indirectly connected to the crime, maybe even helpfully fed LE information leading to the arrest of RA? Which IMO serves to detract from the despicable CSAM acts he allegedly committed and subsequently was charged with.

Now there’s finally been an arrest but the question is will it result in a successful conviction? Who’s got the crystal ball? RA‘s name never appeared on the suspect-of-the-day list, which could be a learning experience in that we never know - and still don’t know - all that LE knows (or should know, had it not been for a bungled data filing situation). But still, I can’t recall any not guilty verdicts because LE took too long to identify the defendant as a suspect. Now it’s a waiting game…the trial will be many months, possibly years down the road.

Collectively our WS speculation track record hasn’t been bang on, probably a good thing it didn’t result in any wrongful convictions. lol
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You forgot a couple! CE and the guy who killed the Catholic store lady. AND THEY ALL LOOKED LIKE THE BG SKETCH THAT LE PUT OUT FIRST! AND NOW RA! GIVE ME A BREAK!
 
I was open to RL being the killer or involved, but thought he was too tall to be BG.

I couldn't for the life of me see JBC as BG because there was just no way that was the same person.

I was willing to be open to KAK & TK being the killers if LE said BG wasn't the killer because they both were way too tall/fat to be BG.

I'm still completely confused by both sketches, neither one resemble RA in the least. I can only assume LE was thinking, let's throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. I think enough LE thought the Klines were involved to walk back the description of BG so that they could be suspects. When in reality those first height/weight descriptions were spot on and only adjusted to include more people.

It frustrates me, not just in this case, but others as well; when LE seem to try to make facts fit a suspect, rather than use the facts and evidence they have and sort out the suspect based on what they KNOW. Based just on BG's height they should have been able to narrow it down to RA if they would have just followed the facts.
 
iamnotagolem said:
I was open to RL being the killer or involved, but thought he was too tall to be BG.

I couldn't for the life of me see JBC as BG because there was just no way that was the same person.

I was willing to be open to KAK & TK being the killers if LE said BG wasn't the killer because they both were way too tall/fat to be BG.

I'm still completely confused by both sketches, neither one resemble RA in the least. I can only assume LE was thinking, let's throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. I think enough LE thought the Klines were involved to walk back the description of BG so that they could be suspects. When in reality those first height/weight descriptions were spot on and only adjusted to include more people.

It frustrates me, not just in this case, but others as well; when LE seem to try to make facts fit a suspect, rather than use the facts and evidence they have and sort out the suspect based on what they KNOW. Based just on BG's height they should have been able to narrow it down to RA if they would have just followed the facts.
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I think it's us who are always trying to make the facts fit a suspect, more than LE doing it. IMO. They have the evidence, and they have to take that evidence to a judge. We, on the other hand, make lots and lots of assumptions based only off what we think the evidence is, and we don't have to answer to anybody.

IMO, it's us being impatient that leads to speculation. Think about the April 2019 PC, when the car at the CPS lot was first mentioned. There were a million-and-one theories about that car, whether it was significant, whether it was related to the case, whether it was just LE spit-balling, whether the car belonged to the killer, a witness, or the baby goat. Things went all over the place. A lot of folks entirely dismissed the car because we never heard anything more about it. But in the end, we see it was/is important and LE had evidence we didn't know they had.

For me, this is the same concept as now, where because there have been no other arrests, most folks seem to have entirely dismissed NMcL stating before the judge that they have "good reason" to believe RA was not the only actor in this crime. There's been nothing since, likely because of the gag order, so how do we know if NMcL or LE still feel this way or not? We don't. They have the evidence, we do not.
 
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Recalling that FBI Agent Jay Abbott, retired special agent in charge of the FBI's Indianapolis division, felt strongly that someone else had to know.

“I am certain— and I know Doug feels the same way— there’s somebody, someone out there who knows something. Who knows the person, who knows something about the murder. That person, he or she, is either afraid to come forward because they’re fearful, or maybe they even feel themselves being complicit in some way. And to that person, I would tell them we’ll protect you. You’ll be safe. And they would be doing an incredible service to the families and the community by bringing closure to them. And because I feel so strongly about many of the circumstantial– not circumstantial things– many of the crime scene things, of which we won’t speak about, that point to more of a signature that the killer left behind… we feel very confident if that person comes forward, that’s the thing that will help us tie it together. And that person who is out there and hopefully would be viewing something like this, would hopefully build that courage and know that what they were doing really would have a deep meaning for the families and the community that has suffered this tragedy.”

 
steeltowngirl said:
Recalling that FBI Agent Jay Abbott, retired special agent in charge of the FBI's Indianapolis division, felt strongly that someone else had to know.

“I am certain— and I know Doug feels the same way— there’s somebody, someone out there who knows something. Who knows the person, who knows something about the murder. That person, he or she, is either afraid to come forward because they’re fearful, or maybe they even feel themselves being complicit in some way. And to that person, I would tell them we’ll protect you. You’ll be safe. And they would be doing an incredible service to the families and the community by bringing closure to them. And because I feel so strongly about many of the circumstantial– not circumstantial things– many of the crime scene things, of which we won’t speak about, that point to more of a signature that the killer left behind… we feel very confident if that person comes forward, that’s the thing that will help us tie it together. And that person who is out there and hopefully would be viewing something like this, would hopefully build that courage and know that what they were doing really would have a deep meaning for the families and the community that has suffered this tragedy.”

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BBM. I'm really curious if LE can tie RA to these "signatures" in any way...
 
TL4S said:
BBM. I'm really curious if LE can tie RA to these "signatures" in any way...
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Good thought! I also pondered whether the plea for ‘someone who knows something’ to come forward was directed towards a person that was an accomplice to whoever directly murdered the girls. Someone that could have bargained for a plea, rather than go down alone for felony murder.
 
iamnotagolem said:
I was open to RL being the killer or involved, but thought he was too tall to be BG.

I couldn't for the life of me see JBC as BG because there was just no way that was the same person.

I was willing to be open to KAK & TK being the killers if LE said BG wasn't the killer because they both were way too tall/fat to be BG.

I'm still completely confused by both sketches, neither one resemble RA in the least. I can only assume LE was thinking, let's throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. I think enough LE thought the Klines were involved to walk back the description of BG so that they could be suspects. When in reality those first height/weight descriptions were spot on and only adjusted to include more people.

It frustrates me, not just in this case, but others as well; when LE seem to try to make facts fit a suspect, rather than use the facts and evidence they have and sort out the suspect based on what they KNOW. Based just on BG's height they should have been able to narrow it down to RA if they would have just followed the facts.
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I agree. If GH could identify from a pic released the place on the bridge where the man took a step and Libby stood with her cellphone camera, I’m shocked the FBI, not even NASA, seemingly don’t have technology to determine his approximate height comparing him to the height of the surrounding trees and branches. It’s not as if he’s standing nowhere near anything in a wide open prairie.

Sometimes I also sense LE enjoys something similar to celebrity status because of public appearances including interviews, press conferences plus the curiosity from the public in general, which doesn’t serve any worthwhile purpose IMO. Nobody outside of the county would hardly know their names if not for the tragedy they are tasked with investigating. JMO
 
Boxer said:
There was talking a witness with a dog.
Don’t see it in the PCA but maybe not a necessary detail.

The witness who saw RA on the bridge came in for a 3.2 mile RT walk.
As she drove apparently from the West to the Mears Lot she saw three girls crossing the Freedom Bridge.
She parked at Mears Lot a few minutes before KG got there and made a loop of Mears to MHB down to FB then back up to Mears.
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It's so very easy to get the abundance of numbers/measurements/speeds jumbled up in a case like this, but I think we need to clarify a bit here implying down the wrong path...

Per Alltrails.com, the entire MHB Trail is 1.6 miles one-way, thus 3.2 miles round-trip - starting from the west at the Old SR 25 overpass(where Witness #4 observed the 4, more likely 3 girls crossing above as she drove underneath) moving easterly toward the MHB and all the way across to the south end of MHB (where the abduction/video occurred). Aside from the website statement of the whole trail being 1.6 miles, we have the PCA stating that the bridge itself is .25 miles. My best approximation per a combination of multiple other websites would break down the other as follows:

A-- Old SR 25 overpass to just east of Freedom Bridge = .24 miles (agreed where RA encountered the juveniles)
B-- just east of Freedom Bridge to where the Mears lot spoke joins the trail = .63 miles
C-- the Mears lot trail intersect to the start (north end) of the actual Monon High Bridge = .48 miles
D-- the length of the MHB itself = .25 (per PCA
-- total = 1.60 miles

Additionally:
E-- the spoke which connects the Mears Parking Lot to the MHB Trail is approx .07 miles
F-- from the old CPS Building where RA is believed to have parked to just east of Freedom Bridge is approx .37 miles

Now MOO....Assuming these distances are accurate or substantially close, and also MOO assuming (again per an average of multiple websites of normal walking speeds for 45-year old adults being 1 mile per 19 minutes) we would have:
-- RA walking segments F, A, B, & C above to get to Platform 1 on the bridge, totaling 1.72 miles in about 27 minutes after parking his car - which is quite brisk, but could match the description of "purposeful" by one of the witnesses
-- Witness #4 has definitively stated walking segments E (from her parking spot to the trail) and C (in order to observe the man 50 feet away on the bridge), which would total .55 miles. It's not believed based on her being still driving past Hoosier Harvestore at 1:46 that she hardly could've begun walking until nearly 1:48 so it seems like she'd have been pushing 1:57-1:58 at the pace of a half-mile per 9-10 minutes before arriving at the bridge which is too tight for comfort because if we're to believe she passed A&L on the return, halfway back, adding another 4-5 minutes returning would take us to 2:01-2:03, when we know A&L were already fully at the bridge by that time. Witness #4 twice in the PCA describes "her walk" so there's no reason to believe she was jogging? For GH to get his animated timeline to "work" he has Witness #4 being out of the car and walking within 35 seconds of passing the store camera, AND covering the .55 mile trek in less than 6 minutes which seems near impossible??! Lastly with Witness #4, if she returns in 9-10 minutes as it's kind of expected it took her to get there, that has her return at approx 2:11 which coincides with her being observed driving away at 2:14 on same store camera. If each leg somehow only took here 5-1/2 minutes there's a lot of time unaccounted for to us, though surely LE knows the entirety of her time there. However there's been nothing stated that Witness #4 crossed any of the bridge and it certainly doesn't seem like she had time to cover the A segment, thus no possibility she walked all 3.2 miles. Btw, we don't know the age of Witness #4 - she could've been 25, 45, 65?
-- Abby & Libby would've walked segments E, C, & D totaling .80 miles. Given cameras evidence that they were dropped off at 1:49 and L's photos shortly after 2:00 and video from the far end of the bridge at 2:13 it all make sense. They were moving a bit slower than normal, but they weren't there for exercise necessarily - we know they were stopping, taking pics, being cautious over the rickety bridge.

I find it extremely intriguing, especially if RA/BG was aware the girls were on their way to MHB, and if he was aware that he was within 3 minutes of them on the trail (who knows maybe he thought he was late and they were a few minutes ahead of him?) that... even though there appears to have been no more than a dozen people on the trails that entire afternoon it would appear someone in Witness #4 unknowingly got in between the perpetrator and the victims who were only 3 minutes apart on the outbound trek. This could've been unlucky or lucky for RA/BG in that had she not been there at all, no one would've witnessed him within a mile of the crime scene... though lucky in the sense that RA/BG perhaps following Witness #4 off the trail to make sure she wasn't coming back might've kept him unseen in L's photos.
 
FrostedGlass said:
One would think if that was the case, it would be written like this: three juveniles, Jane, Ann and Judy. So there would be 3 redactions, not 2. Maybe the LE that made out the PCA just left out a space. Since one of the witnesses claimed to see 4 juveniles, it make sense to me that maybe one of them was a little bit older but looked young.

The other thing I'm thinking is maybe they didn't want to name the juveniles in the PCA, knowing it would be public.
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I thought that was odd too as usually even redacted, the commas, spaces and # of redacts remain intact. I originally wondered if possibly it would've read "with 3 juveniles, 1 teen, and 2 girls....? but it seems like not enough spaces for even that short phrase. Based on the spaces later in the paragraph, it sure looks like the two redacts in the first sentence are only about 4-5 characters each which makes it tough to figure out. Seems odd they'd introduce these witnesses by first-name only, especially since there isn't punctuation and room for 3 names, but who knows?
 
Justice101 said:
OK, we have the following evidence:
1) RA placing himself near the bridge on the same date and approximate hours. (direct evidence)
2) Eyewitnesses see RA on the trail at the time. (direct evidence)
3) Eyewitness seeing man dressed the same but muddy and bloody on road heading back to his car. (direct evidence)
3) Unspent bullet with similar markings of gun found at RA's residence. (circumstantial evidence)

What is your guess as to the other evidence that the prosecution either has or will have by time of trial or discovery?
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The only one that might be mildly stretched is #3 in that...the spot the witness saw the muddy and bloody guy was simply "walking west on the north side of a County Road" - that witness couldn't have known that he was heading back to his car. Without having more tie-ins to the crime itself or perpetrator himself, it may not be evidence of any kind other than it sort of makes sense that someone leaving around that time from around that place might have been muddy or bloody (though can't say for sure), It's also hard to say that's direct evidence against RA since he told the CO that he had left the area by 3:30 (though that's not LE verified to my knowledge). With this witness sighting around 4:00 (several minutes west of the Store Camera verifying the driver passby at 3:57) and the muddy bloody guy being still a fairly long walk from a car at CPS, this witness observance would not be incriminating to anything RA has admitted since it doesn't fit RA's provided timeline as strongly as your #1 and #2, and would be easier for the defense to cast doubt IMO than your #4.
 
EOA said:
It's so very easy to get the abundance of numbers/measurements/speeds jumbled up in a case like this, but I think we need to clarify a bit here implying down the wrong path...

Per Alltrails.com, the entire MHB Trail is 1.6 miles one-way, thus 3.2 miles round-trip - starting from the west at the Old SR 25 overpass(where Witness #4 observed the 4, more likely 3 girls crossing above as she drove underneath) moving easterly toward the MHB and all the way across to the south end of MHB (where the abduction/video occurred). Aside from the website statement of the whole trail being 1.6 miles, we have the PCA stating that the bridge itself is .25 miles. My best approximation per a combination of multiple other websites would break down the other as follows:

A-- Old SR 25 overpass to just east of Freedom Bridge = .24 miles (agreed where RA encountered the juveniles)
B-- just east of Freedom Bridge to where the Mears lot spoke joins the trail = .63 miles
C-- the Mears lot trail intersect to the start (north end) of the actual Monon High Bridge = .48 miles
D-- the length of the MHB itself = .25 (per PCA
-- total = 1.60 miles

Additionally:
E-- the spoke which connects the Mears Parking Lot to the MHB Trail is approx .07 miles
F-- from the old CPS Building where RA is believed to have parked to just east of Freedom Bridge is approx .37 miles

Now MOO....Assuming these distances are accurate or substantially close, and also MOO assuming (again per an average of multiple websites of normal walking speeds for 45-year old adults being 1 mile per 19 minutes) we would have:
-- RA walking segments F, A, B, & C above to get to Platform 1 on the bridge, totaling 1.72 miles in about 27 minutes after parking his car - which is quite brisk, but could match the description of "purposeful" by one of the witnesses
-- Witness #4 has definitively stated walking segments E (from her parking spot to the trail) and C (in order to observe the man 50 feet away on the bridge), which would total .55 miles. It's not believed based on her being still driving past Hoosier Harvestore at 1:46 that she hardly could've begun walking until nearly 1:48 so it seems like she'd have been pushing 1:57-1:58 at the pace of a half-mile per 9-10 minutes before arriving at the bridge which is too tight for comfort because if we're to believe she passed A&L on the return, halfway back, adding another 4-5 minutes returning would take us to 2:01-2:03, when we know A&L were already fully at the bridge by that time. Witness #4 twice in the PCA describes "her walk" so there's no reason to believe she was jogging? For GH to get his animated timeline to "work" he has Witness #4 being out of the car and walking within 35 seconds of passing the store camera, AND covering the .55 mile trek in less than 6 minutes which seems near impossible??! Lastly with Witness #4, if she returns in 9-10 minutes as it's kind of expected it took her to get there, that has her return at approx 2:11 which coincides with her being observed driving away at 2:14 on same store camera. If each leg somehow only took here 5-1/2 minutes there's a lot of time unaccounted for to us, though surely LE knows the entirety of her time there. However there's been nothing stated that Witness #4 crossed any of the bridge and it certainly doesn't seem like she had time to cover the A segment, thus no possibility she walked all 3.2 miles. Btw, we don't know the age of Witness #4 - she could've been 25, 45, 65?
-- Abby & Libby would've walked segments E, C, & D totaling .80 miles. Given cameras evidence that they were dropped off at 1:49 and L's photos shortly after 2:00 and video from the far end of the bridge at 2:13 it all make sense. They were moving a bit slower than normal, but they weren't there for exercise necessarily - we know they were stopping, taking pics, being cautious over the rickety bridge.

I find it extremely intriguing, especially if RA/BG was aware the girls were on their way to MHB, and if he was aware that he was within 3 minutes of them on the trail (who knows maybe he thought he was late and they were a few minutes ahead of him?) that... even though there appears to have been no more than a dozen people on the trails that entire afternoon it would appear someone in Witness #4 unknowingly got in between the perpetrator and the victims who were only 3 minutes apart on the outbound trek. This could've been unlucky or lucky for RA/BG in that had she not been there at all, no one would've witnessed him within a mile of the crime scene... though lucky in the sense that RA/BG perhaps following Witness #4 off the trail to make sure she wasn't coming back might've kept him unseen in L's photos.
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Perhaps the defense will have room to argue the credibility of Witness #4's BG sighting. But what if she came forward with her description of his clothing and placement on the bridge before the BG photo was even released? This is information we don't know.

I feel like if her timing was impossible, NMcL would have known the defense team would also calculate it to be impossible, therefore he wouldn't have included it. I could be wrong, though, and maybe LE and NMcL didn't do their due diligence in the timing department. They did offer her exact HH camera times, though, so I think they likely had it figured.

Perhaps her "halfway" back was a miscalculation on her part. She might have turned around and saw the girls relatively soon after. IDK. We also have to consider that RA didn't actually admit to being on the bridge until Oct. 2022. Why is that? He didn't offer that to the CO back in 2017. I think LE might have told him someone saw him on the bridge. If he didn't know about Witness #4 before that, it seems suspicious to admit to being on the bridge only after he knew he'd been seen. That, imo, adds some credibility to her sighting.

If her sighting gets thrown out, though, that would be a major victory for the defense, IMO.
 
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MistyWaters said:
I agree. If GH could identify from a pic released the place on the bridge where the man took a step and Libby stood with her cellphone camera, I’m shocked the FBI, not even NASA, seemingly don’t have technology to determine his approximate height comparing him to the height of the surrounding trees and branches. It’s not as if he’s standing nowhere near anything in a wide open prairie.

Sometimes I also sense LE enjoys something similar to celebrity status because of public appearances including interviews, press conferences plus the curiosity from the public in general, which doesn’t serve any worthwhile purpose IMO. Nobody outside of the county would hardly know their names if not for the tragedy they are tasked with investigating. JMO
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MOO most Police PCs are facts due to the public and are business like.
This case from the beginning had too much emoting from police and too little double checking their work.
 
Having been around the houses on extremely excruciating spreadsheeted detail on the Pistorius timeline, I am not tempted to get into the weeds on that until we get more detailed witness evidence and the prosecution/defence theories. The exact details in evidence are what matter rather than what is in the PCA.

To me the broad sweep of the evidence is more important at this stage i.e

1. the 3 juveniles and RA report seeing each other - which gives us some decent timings

2. The woman walker sees bridge guy, then turns and sees the victims a short time later

On any read, it is difficult to see where RA could have been, so as not to have seen woman walker and also not see the victims, and also not see Bridge Guy

I am most interested how he attempted to explain all this, in the course of 3 interviews, more than I am in the PCA itself.

IMO the evolution of his story will be key.
 
TL4S said:
Perhaps the defense will have room to argue the credibility of Witness #4's BG sighting. But what if she came forward with her description of his clothing and placement on the bridge before the BG photo was even released? This is information we don't know.

I feel like if her timing was impossible, NMcL would have known the defense team would also calculate it to be impossible, therefore he wouldn't have included it. I could be wrong, though, and maybe LE and NMcL didn't do their due diligence in the timing department. They did offer her exact HH camera times, though, so I think they likely had it figured.

Perhaps her "halfway" back was a miscalculation on her part. She might have turned around and saw the girls relatively soon after. IDK. We also have to consider that RA didn't actually admit to being on the bridge until Oct. 2022. Why is that? He didn't offer that to the CO back in 2017. I think LE might have told him someone saw him on the bridge. If he didn't know about Witness #4 before that, it seems suspicious to admit to being on the bridge only after he knew he'd been seen. That, imo, adds some credibility to her sighting.

If her sighting gets thrown out, though, that would be a major victory for the defense, IMO.
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I don't think her sighting will be in danger personally.

She reported it years ago in a sworn statement, and it is backed by security camera footage and perhaps digital evidence.

IMO the problem is rather for the defence to explain away her evidence - which creates a dilemna

1. If she saw RA on the bridge, how did he not see the girls

2. If she saw Bridge Guy (the real killer) and not RA, where was he?

I expect a lot of hand waving on this, but the fatal mistakes are likely in RA's police interviews.
 
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