IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[Ursamajr]

I just do not think Liberty German was uploading photos to Snapchat at the same time as she would have been concerned about this strange person heading toward them. But I do not know why Liberty German started taking the video of the bridge guy in the first place. I suppose that is possible.

This is my opinion only.

I don't think she would have done that either. I *do* think she could have been putting filters on the photo and uploading with her head down not noticing a man starting to make his way across the bridge though.

 

[TL4S]

It would be interesting to know if they were recording beforehand and whether or not Abby or Libby mentioned some strange person following them on the trail before they even got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge, where Liberty German took a photo of the entire bridge at around 2:05 pm. We don't know.

I think that would at least come closer to establishing that their abductor came from the direction of the trails and saw them on the trail path before turning around to follow them back to the Monon High Bridge.

JH said something else interesting, earlier in that interview.
..................
mm 27:48

AM: Is there more audio that was found on Libby's phone?

JH: Yes.

AM: Is that something that would be released?

JH: Not at this point. We've discussed it and at this point we don't think it'll help the investigation at this time. It doesn't appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls, things like that so... and we've only released a portion of it. There's some others that we think could help us but again protecting the integrity of the investigation is the key here so we can't release everything we have because there's only certain people that know the details and if we release everything, then we get into possible false confessions and people over-exaggerating and embellishing information and putting on Facebook like we already battle with, so we can only give so much.
...............
I noted the plural "others," which I think could possibly mean there is something besides the 43 second video that they think could be helpful, but that they are concerned about releasing (although he could be talking about the gun stuff, I suppose). That's only my interpretation. If there was an unsettling exchange on the north side of the bridge, for example, and the girls discuss this in a recording, or something like that, it could also help explain why L and A were uncomfortable enough to start the 43 second video. Jmo.

 

[TL4S]

I don't think she would have done that either. I *do* think she could have been putting filters on the photo and uploading with her head down not noticing a man starting to make his way across the bridge though.

Good point. I've always been curious about that timestamp. Now, due to the girls 1:49 arrival time, per the PCA, I think there is only a few minute window where they could have taken the pictures vs uploading them. We know the video was at 2:13 and describes A crossing the bridge with the man following behind her, so the 6 minutes between the 2:07 timestamp and the known 2:13 video is still enough time for BG to enter and cross the bridge, imo. Add a couple minutes before uploading and it's more than enough time. Especially for someone who's familiar and crossed it before. Jmo.

As for the delay in him getting on the bridge, I feel it could have been because the girls were recording, however, it also could have been him waiting for the lady who saw him on the bridge to get farther away (if he was even aware of her), or he could have walked up the trail a short ways to see if anyone else was coming. Jmo.

 

[Falling Down]

Good point. I've always been curious about that timestamp. Now, due to the girls 1:49 arrival time, per the PCA, I think there is only a few minute window where they could have taken the pictures vs uploading them. We know the video was at 2:13 and describes A crossing the bridge with the man following behind her, so the 6 minutes between the 2:07 timestamp and the known 2:13 video is still enough time for BG to enter and cross the bridge, imo. Add a couple minutes before uploading and it's more than enough time. Especially for someone who's crossed it before. Jmo.

As for the delay in him getting on the bridge, I feel it could have been because they were recording, however, it also could have been him waiting for the lady who saw him on the bridge to get farther away (if he was even aware of her), or he could have walked up the trail to see if anyone else was coming. Jmo.

All strong possibilities.

There's a gentle curve on the trail, where he could have stood and watched both the bridge in the distance, and back towards where the woman was walking to her vehicle.

My walk time in 2020 was roughly 5 minutes from where the makeshift memorial was on the trail, and the bridge. Maybe 4.5. It would take someone maybe 4 minutes or so to walk the 850 foot span of the bridge. So if we half the distance for the walk from where the girls were dropped off, it puts us at the gentle curve in the trail. From a vantage point along that curve to getting on the bridge would be about a 2.5-3 min. walk.

From the vantage point along the curve, to the SE end of the bridge, could been walked in about 8 minutes, the perp probably did in less than 8.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

All strong possibilities.

There's a gentle curve on the trail, where he could have stood and watched both the bridge in the distance, and back towards where the woman was walking to her vehicle.

My walk time in 2020 was roughly 5 minutes from where the makeshift memorial was on the trail, and the bridge. Maybe 4.5. It would take someone maybe 4 minutes or so to walk the 850 foot span of the bridge. So if we half the distance for the walk from where the girls were dropped off, it puts us at the gentle curve in the trail. From a vantage point along that curve to getting on the bridge would be about a 2.5-3 min. walk.

From the vantage point along the curve, to the SE end of the bridge, could been walked in about 8 minutes, the perp probably did in less than 8.

JMO

That's helpful, thank you! I definitely think the girls, with taking video and photos, and A's supposed first time on the bridge, likely took longer on the trail and bridge than the killer did. What's scary to me is that at any point while he waited, or while crossing the bridge, he could have changed his mind, but he didn't...

 

[Yemelyan]

The point of my post was that I think there could be the possibility the crime was not premeditated and that someone else came up from the southeast side of the bridge walking past Liberty German and then Abigail Williams on the bridge before turning around on the bridge and coming back to abduct them. This person had no clue about the timestamps of the previous pictures taken by Liberty German on the bridge according to this theory.

I think this was a crime of opportunity. But if the definition of premeditation could be as little as a few seconds then it could be considered premeditated. My opinion is that the killer saw an opportunity and acted upon it if the right opportunity presented itself. If that person was Richard Allen, then it was Richard Allen. It could be he was looking out for others on the trail who might have seen him near Abby and Libby. I do not know what was going on in Richard Allen's mind or why he may have waited to carry about the abduction. This is speculation.

I was only stating my opinion that I thought it was strange he waited to carry out the abduction for 5-8 minutes according to the 2:05 and 2:07pm photos taken by Liberty German and the bridge guy video taken at 2:13pm. If I were a detective I would want to try to figure out why the delay.

If these murders were a crime of passion scenario (as some here have proposed - i.e. the girls giggled at him and he abducted and killed them because he was suddenly "mad") then, I suppose, the delay is problematic for the defense because prosecutors can easily show that he had time to decide take a different course and did not (premeditation).

But otherwise, I don't think LE/prosecutors are ever going to have to prove what exactly was going through his mind in the 5-8 minute delay. In fact, it works in their favor, whatever reason it occurred. Because it shows that he could have walked away and left them alone and he chose not to.

 

[TL4S]

I've reread the RL affidavit. I'm not suggesting he is involved at all, but I bring it up because there are pertinent details about the CS included in that affidavit, IMO. Nothing new, but none of this was included in the RA PCA.

• Unknown fibers and unidentified hairs found at the scene (they requested being able to collect hair, bodily fluids, blood, animal hair, fibers)
• A lot of blood loss and due to the nature of wounds, the killer likely had blood on him
• No signs of struggle or fight on either victim
• That redacted (we now know underwear and a sock) from one victim were not recovered, and in this same item paragraph, it's said that "perpetrators of this type of crime" take 'souvenirs' or otherwise memorialize the CS through photos or other electronic methods

I'm afraid that MS getting the RL affidavit released to the public might have alerted RA and given him time to dispose of the 'souvenirs' (physical or electronic), if he indeed had them. He didn't know about the unspent round yet (if he wasn't already aware he'd lost it), or the surveillance footage, or the witness statements. JMO. Even if he didn't think he would ever get caught, he might have thought it was too risky having those items around after it became public knowledge. IDK.

 

[girlhasnoname]

That's helpful, thank you! I definitely think the girls, with taking video and photos, and A's supposed first time on the bridge, likely took longer on the trail and bridge than the killer did. What's scary to me is that at any point while he waited, or while crossing the bridge, he could have changed his mind, but he didn't...

Which also confirms to me that this was a planned event. I don't know how or by whom, but RA was on a mission that day against Abby & Libby.

MOO

 

[somequestions]

It is that 2:07pm upload picture of Abby and Abigail William's location on the Monon High Bridge itself that makes me wonder how the abductor was able to gain up to Abby's location on the bridge so quick if the video was not until 2:13pm.

The only answer I think of is that some point after the 2:07pm picture the girls were stopped or going very slow across the Monon High Bridge after the 2:07pm picture of Abby. Or the abductor was already closer to their location because he was on the southeast side.

That person could have been Richard Allen if he did not leave platform 1 and instead went across the bridge to the other side making sure to be off of the bridge before the 2:05pm or earlier picture of the entire bridge was taken by Liberty German. All of this is opinion. It is hard to determine the time delay in this case because of how fast or slow the abductor or the girls were moving on the trails and the bridge that day.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The theory that BG came from the south side was a hard one for me to let go of. However, the PCA is pretty convincing.

But then I still think about what Holeman said and I give up trying to figure things out. We talked a lot about that comment, with the "true details" ranging from something insignificant to something big. I've always thought the reenactments were pretty solid.

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Since the 2017 murder of Indiana teens Libby German and Abby Williams, local authorities have not released any information about the cause or time of death of either victim, leading to rumors and speculation. We spoke with Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman about why the police are...

www.aetv.com

 

[MistyWaters]

The theory that BG came from the south side was a hard one for me to let go of. However, the PCA is pretty convincing.

But then I still think about what Holeman said and I give up trying to figure things out. We talked a lot about that comment, with the "true details" ranging from something insignificant to something big. I've always thought the reenactments were pretty solid.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Since the 2017 murder of Indiana teens Libby German and Abby Williams, local authorities have not released any information about the cause or time of death of either victim, leading to rumors and speculation. We spoke with Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman about why the police are...

www.aetv.com

Question - did you watch any of the youtube re-enactments? I did not and my understanding is they’ve been (thankfully and rightfully) long since removed from youtube. But apparently it involved people actually acting (aka actors portraying ) the murder scene.

I think it was very wise for Holeman to not add intrigue or curiosity to what was otherwise taking advantage of a tragedy in a very disgusting and thoughtless way and maybe that was the primary intent of his comment, rather than it being offered as ”a clue”? Just something to consider because this quote often gets mentioned.…

 

[FrostedGlass]

Question - did you watch any of the youtube re-enactments? I did not and my understanding is they’ve been (thankfully and rightfully) long since removed from youtube. But apparently it involved people actually acting (aka actors portraying ) the murder scene.

I think it was very wise for Holeman to not add intrigue or curiosity to what was otherwise taking advantage of a tragedy in a very disgusting and thoughtless way and maybe that was the primary intent of his comment, rather than it being offered as ”a clue”? Just something to consider because this quote often gets mentioned.…

I watched GH's and AG's reenactments. AG used girls dressed similar to what L&A were wearing, going down the hill and across the creek but they stopped there. They were very similar to GH's reenactments.

I've never heard of anyone playing out the actual murders.

 

[TheVisual]

Impossible. The man is walking BEHIND Abigail so how could her shoes be behind his foot? The few facts we do know matter.

The video (appx 43 seconds in length) depicts Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Liberty while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her.“

Source: page 1

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

And how do we know if LE didn't blot out Abby when they placed BG's picture on the bridge. Who's to say he didn't pass Abby and Libby also took a picture. Do you really believe they gave us everything?

 

[MistyWaters]

I watched GH's and AG's reenactments. AG used girls dressed similar to what L&A were wearing, going down the hill and across the creek but they stopped there. They were very similar to GH's reenactments.

I've never heard of anyone playing out the actual murders.

Most of what I noticed began with the bridge/photo and ended at DTH, essentially the same info that LE released.

 

[MistyWaters]

And how do we know if LE didn't blot out Abby when they placed BG's picture on the bridge. Who's to say he didn't pass Abby and Libby also took a picture. Do you really believe they gave us everything?

That quote is from the Probable Cause to get authorization from the judge for the search warrant so yes, I do believe it. LE know what the video reveals. They were not giving it to us, they were giving it to the judge and only because some documents were recently released do we get to know what they know.

What’s your theory? The way I see it if BG had passed Libby and Abby on the bridge, they would not have been essentially trapped at the end of the bridge where he ordered them DTH. Instead they could’ve freely crossed over the bridge and onward back to the public trail system.

 

[somequestions]

If the killer was seen leaving the Monon High Bridge trail muddy and bloody walking along 300 North how were they not seen on the Hoosier Harveststore video surveillance walking down 300 N?

 

[TheVisual]

I do see the white spots that look like they could be her shoes; they did have white soles. Also, that area beside his left thigh does appear to be blurred a bit more than the trees in the background. We should be able to capture that same picture in the video clip of him walking. Shouldn't we?

That picture has given me problems since the first time I saw it. Something about it has my brain convinced that image is not grounded. Every time I've ever looked at it, I've pulled the image of Abby on the bridge to compare and my brain says she's grounded; he's not. Then it's time to take off the tinfoil. lol..

But, then there's his strange right foot. His image is straight on but his right foot turns out so bad that we can see his entire shoe. Remember all those times we looked at his shoes and never did find something that matched?

What a case this is!

I agree, LE is not telling us all.

 

[TheVisual]

Impossible. The man is walking BEHIND Abigail so how could her shoes be behind his foot? The few facts we do know matter.

The video (appx 43 seconds in length) depicts Abigail walking on the Monon High Bridge toward Liberty while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her.“

Source: page 1

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/Delphi-Docs-2022.pdf

If LE has this video, why can't they give us the shot of BG behind Abby?

 

[MistyWaters]

If LE has this video, why can't they give us the shot of BG behind Abby?

Why would they need to give us that? The identification of Abby isn’t required as she was a victim. However the photo and video of the suspect was released in hopes someone could identify him. Any details pertaining to the commission of the crime is evidence required for the trial in order for the jury to convict.

 

[MistyWaters]

If the killer was seen leaving the Monon High Bridge trail muddy and bloody walking along 300 North how were they not seen on the Hoosier Harveststore video surveillance walking down 300 N?

There’s never going to be complete answers to every last detail unless RA (allegedly the killer) offers up a minute by minute confession of every thought and action that occurred. Even then it will not answer every question IMO.

But possibly, just guessing, the car unexpectedly passing by the muddy and bloody killer on the road spooked/rattled him so he began walking through the wooded area beside the road, so as not to he seen? JMO