Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[tresir2012]

Regarding DNA, I think they may have a partial profile or more than one profile.
A partial profile comes with the obvious difficulties.

LE might also have 2-3 profiles.
1 or none could be the killer, so they don’t want to claim they have DNA and then realize none of them are actually the killer.
That could blow up in their face or cause issues in court.

Welcome Completely Incorrect,
Great user name - you are Completely Incorrect - is your partner Always Right by any chance?

Anyway, your post is very interesting, especially if they still have around two dozen POI'S.

 

[TL4S]

I think some have speculated that BG may have been far in the distance in the Snapchat photo of Abby. Not sure if this was ever confirmed.

If he WASNT in that photo, how did he ever catch up so closely to them?

Has anyone ever speculated that he came from the opposite direction (towards them) then turned around and started following them? Maybe this is why she started filming?

I don’t understand how he could have caught up to them otherwise, especially given how carefully it seems one needed to walk on that uneven bridge. It looked really deserted behind them. Unless he was running how did he get so close?

MOO

That idea has come up a few times, and there's some strong arguments for it.

The questions that come to my mind in that scenario are:

• If he was coming from the south, and was parked on the south, why did the girls end up on the north side of the creek? Did they run? Did BG have to cross the creek again to get back to his car?
• If the girls were heading south on the bridge and saw him walking towards them, would they have passed him, or would they have turned around before they reached him? I know the idea is that him turning around and coming back at them after passing is what freaked them out enough to film, but my personal belief is he freaked them out already and they wouldn't have passed him on top of the bridge.

 

[TL4S]

I know I've said this before, but to me it's very significant.

No matter where on the trail/bridge/woods, and no matter what route the girls took to return to where they were dropped off, as long as BG was between them and their way back, they were boxed in. The layout of the trail, with the creek and bridge, allowed for him to cut them off at any point because they basically had nowhere else to go. BG's last known location was on the bridge, already blocking their way back. IMO, that says something not only about BG's knowledge of the park, but also his criminal behavior type. It infuriates me, honestly. He's truly a predator. JMO

 

[JnRyan]

Regarding DNA, I think they may have a partial profile or more than one profile.
A partial profile comes with the obvious difficulties.

LE might also have 2-3 profiles.
1 or none could be the killer, so they don’t want to claim they have DNA and then realize none of them are actually the killer.
That could blow up in their face or cause issues in court.

That is what I am thinking. 1st Sgt Holeman said in an interview that nowadays it almost every crime scene has DNA because 'touch' DNA is much more likely to be picked up with today's methods. But after eliminating family who touched their clothing they may very well have 2-3 unidentified profiles. As you point out - are ANY one of these the killer's? A touch DNA could be someone who picked up a sweatshirt and handed it to one of them. A person could have come close to one of them at a fast food place or mini-mart/gas station and put their hand on the shirt or sweatshirt to avoid a collision. If such an innocent person was from out of town they may never be identified. The subject of partial DNA just muddies the water even more, especially if it is from an innocent party.

 

[crussell821]

IMO, there is not enough video evidence to determine whether his gait is due to walking on the bridge, some kind of disability/abnormal mannerisms or because he is hiding something in his pants at that time. Perhaps LE has more video footage which would be easier to distinguish, but with the limited video evidence released to the public, it’s just not enough to make a determination IMO.

That’s so helpful, I’ve never been able to visualize it properly til I saw this!

 

[JnRyan]

I think some have speculated that BG may have been far in the distance in the Snapchat photo of Abby. Not sure if this was ever confirmed.

If he WASNT in that photo, how did he ever catch up so closely to them?

Has anyone ever speculated that he came from the opposite direction (towards them) then turned around and started following them? Maybe this is why she started filming?

I don’t understand how he could have caught up to them otherwise, especially given how carefully it seems one needed to walk on that uneven bridge. It looked really deserted behind them. Unless he was running how did he get so close?

MOO

One reenactment that I watched showed a bend in the trail just beyond the beginning of the bridge. The killer could have been there leaning against and behind a tree and would not have been in the photo. If the girls are taking their time looking at the scenery for possible photos it may have taken longer than usual to cross the bridge and this killer wasn't concerned with such things. I wonder if this killer had a 'determined' gait and was closing fast when they noticed him causing some concern. If the girls had seen him earlier on the trail and he wasn't moving so fast with an obvious purpose it may have creeped them out even more.

 

[cluciano63]

I seriously doubt these murders were committed for any motive other than sexual assault. DNA in any place on either of their bodies normally covered by clothes would likely be his. But any DNA that a person can’t explain, i.e of they should never have been in even casual contact with them at all could also be the killer’s.

I think LE must have some DNA they can attribute to killer, simply by where it was found, as they seem to rule suspects/POI’s out in some fashion and have been taking DNA for these two+ years.

Jmo...

 

[Jamie737]

That is what I am thinking. 1st Sgt Holeman said in an interview that nowadays it almost every crime scene has DNA because 'touch' DNA is much more likely to be picked up with today's methods. But after eliminating family who touched their clothing they may very well have 2-3 unidentified profiles. As you point out - are ANY one of these the killer's? A touch DNA could be someone who picked up a sweatshirt and handed it to one of them. A person could have come close to one of them at a fast food place or mini-mart/gas station and put their hand on the shirt or sweatshirt to avoid a collision. If such an innocent person was from out of town they may never be identified. The subject of partial DNA just muddies the water even more, especially if it is from an innocent party.

Also, in the Renner interview, KG clearly states she gave each of the girls a sweatshirt of hers.

That means everyone who had come in touch with KG’s sweatshirt’s DNA has to be accounted for too. That widens the pool considerably one would think.

 

[CSIDreamer]

he appears to lift both his feet at least 4 inches above the walking surface. this is strange and could be considered a "mannerism" as opposed to gait, although technically it is his gait. they said he is not walking normally bc of the bridge ties and not to focus on that, but to notice his mannerism. clear as mud, again.

try walking like this - it is unnatural and requires intention. it is as if he is stepping over obstacles when that is not the issue with that bridge - it's more about stepping where there are sturdy boards.

I tend to scuffle my feet. I can guarantee you, I'd be walking weird on that bridge, too, since it wouldn't be my normal scuffling gait.

 

[JnRyan]

Also, in the Renner interview, KG clearly states she gave each of the girls a sweatshirt of hers.

That means everyone who had come in touch with KG’s sweatshirt’s DNA has to be accounted for too. That widens the pool considerably one would think.

Wow! And if either or both of those sweatshirts have not been washed over the last few times KG wore them we have a considerably wider pool. KG may or may not remember who touched her, say, a week before. She may not remember the person who bumped in line at a store or where she worked. She may have put it on a chair at work, it falls off, and a well meaning customer picks it up and puts it back - without her knowledge. And she has no idea who might have bumped into girls, innocently, when she wasn't there. KG's sweatshirts - that just increased the size of DNA pool. And if the killer did not touch them - i.e., he shot them - then it just gets more complicated for LE.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Another oldie interview to bump up. It is from approx. 3 weeks after the murders.

This is between Tobe Leazenby and Michael Stroup.

Lots of discussion about DNA and some about the video. Also some discussion of the possibility of more than one person being involved.

DELPHI DOUBLE MURDER UPDATE INTERVIEW WITH SHERIFF TOBE LEAZENBY - 9tube.tv

5 mins 20 seconds
"I feel confident we're going to end up in a court of law one of these days with this situation......"

The 'twist' is mentioned around 9 minutes in.
...." it's got a whole new, it's got a whole twist to it that, even I, as a 30 year veteran, have never seen."

I keep hoping to see 'Arrest' on each thread. I believe it will soon happen.

JMO

 

[flashy09]

Wow! And if either or both of those sweatshirts have not been washed over the last few times KG wore them we have a considerably wider pool. KG may or may not remember who touched her, say, a week before. She may not remember the person who bumped in line at a store or where she worked. She may have put it on a chair at work, it falls off, and a well meaning customer picks it up and puts it back - without her knowledge. And she has no idea who might have bumped into girls, innocently, when she wasn't there. KG's sweatshirts - that just increased the size of DNA pool. And if the killer did not touch them - i.e., he shot them - then it just gets more complicated for LE.

Ok, that is really making me think! There has always been something not right with the DNA in my mind. They seem to be able to rule people out, but even though at the PC it seemed like a suspect was in mind, LE doesn't seem to be able to take a DNA sample and rule anybody IN. Maybe they have 15 people on the clothing with touch DNA - no time for a rape, he didn't leave a hair or blood on the girls - and all of them are accounted for - maybe wrongly. So LE needs something to break and place somebody at the scene or get an alibi invalidated.

 

[Rosegold68]

the murder itself has a twist to it they mean?

that would not surprise me one little bit.

on a different notes have just finished last episodes of girls incarcerated....with every male that spoke i was hearing BG!

 

[Jkeller]

They also mentioned he might have lived there before or work there. moo



‘We also believe this person is from Delphi’: Police release new sketch, additional information in Delphi murder investigation

I believe they are going by an FBI profile. That reads almost like the press conference about Jonbenet Ramsey

 

[Jax49]

I believe they are going by an FBI profile. That reads almost like the press conference about Jonbenet Ramsey

Welcome to WS. I get the same impression when they mention he may have already been interviewed.

 

[Imvp2]

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

Just looking at this great map and understanding the locations, even though I've been to the location. Thank you!
It makes me think even more so, he left through the cemetery. He didn't risk, being seen, going all the way back to the entrance. MOO

 

[Imvp2]

the murder itself has a twist to it they mean?

that would not surprise me one little bit.

on a different notes have just finished last episodes of girls incarcerated....with every male that spoke i was hearing BG!

I wonder as well, what could be the "twist:?

 

[Jax49]

Just looking at this great map and understanding the locations, even though I've been to the location. Thank you!
It makes me think even more so, he left through the cemetery. He didn't risk, being seen, going all the way back to the entrance. MOO

Credit to skibaboo for the map. It is excellent and I should use it more. I remember we were complaining on the thread about LE being parked all over the cemetery, because it seemed the logical place to exit the area. moo

 

[Boxer]

Ok, that is really making me think! There has always been something not right with the DNA in my mind. They seem to be able to rule people out, but even though at the PC it seemed like a suspect was in mind, LE doesn't seem to be able to take a DNA sample and rule anybody IN. Maybe they have 15 people on the clothing with touch DNA - no time for a rape, he didn't leave a hair or blood on the girls - and all of them are accounted for - maybe wrongly. So LE needs something to break and place somebody at the scene or get an alibi invalidated.

MOO this line if thinking seems very right, and explains the slightly exasperated tone of police statements about DNA.
"We have DNA," it is probably such an understatement. They have so much DNA. But once the field narrows, the DNA that matches becomes critical evidence.

 

[BradB]

I dont think they have any DNA at all. Just judging from everything that is going down I believe they are at a complete stand still. I really dont believe this guy left anything at all because he never had the chance. He snapped and killed them quickly.