Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

    Messages:
    27,681
    Likes Received:
    36,753
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

    On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
    The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below


    HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19
    [​IMG]


    HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
    https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

    Here is the old audio in a loop:

    http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

    LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

    FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.


    Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

    Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

    Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

    video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

    Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.


    Pictures of Abby and Libby

    link to post with all threads 1-99 (courtesy of margarita25)

    Thread #84
    Thread
    #85
    THREAD #86
    THREAD #88
    THREAD #89
    THREAD #90
    Thread #91
    Thread #92
    Thread #93
    Thread #94
    Thread #95
    Thread #96
    Thread #97
    Thread #98
    Thread #99
    Thread #100
    Thread #101
    Thread #102
    Thread #103
    Thread #104
    Thread #105
    Thread #106
    Thread #107
    Thread #108

    Thread #109 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109
    Thread #110 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110
    Thread #111 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111
    Thread #112 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112
    Thread #113 - Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113
    Thread #114
    Thread #115
    Thread #116

    *Media Maps & Timelines*
    IMAGE Discussion Thread
    Scanner Thread
    Rules Etiquette & Information
    Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
    grayhuze youtube channel

    Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

    RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION

    DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.


    PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

    Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

    4) If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2019


  2. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

    Messages:
    27,681
    Likes Received:
    36,753
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is a lot to discuss in the Delphi case with all the very big developments.

    We have a very strong rule on Websleuths. Do not ask someone to PM you on a discussion thread. Why? You saw what happens on this thread. The thread was almost taken over by people saying "PM ME PM ME". We couldn't keep up with removing the posts.
    If you want someone to PM you then what you do is you PRIVATE MESSAGE THEM FIRST and ask them whatever.

    You do not stop the whole discussion and ask someone to PM you.

    We will be giving long time-outs to anyone who says they have the information they can only share in PM's or words to that effect.

    We call that "baiting" and it makes me crazy. It is so frustrating to try and get things under control when someone recklessly posts a cryptic post creating a frenzy of posts asking to be PM'd.
    Please be mindful of our rules.
    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
  3. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,463
    Likes Received:
    27,975
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I still feel there were two people involved. And one, probably, was the instigator, but we don’t see him on the bridge. He is probably waiting downstairs. I also wonder if, contrary to everything being said, the girls went down the hill voluntarily. It is hard to control two strong girls going down that hill. It is very hard to go down that hill to start with. Something doesn’t match up in that story.
     
  4. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    3,425
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Absolutely agree. But it's not merely voice as variable. Added audio snippets means vocabulary, inflection, emotion, pauses or lack thereof, transitions, etc.

    Any numbers of possibilities. Law enforcement has no idea what might trigger something in a relative or friend. A tame word to law enforcement could be all the difference to the potential identifier.

    It is beyond shameful that so much is being withheld. But again, we live in an era of fear. Since fear is so popular nobody is properly criticized for defaulting to it time and again, especially law enforcement. You've actually got citizens who are so brainwashed toward fear they approve and applaud of fear and restraint from higher ups. It shows in this thread and elsewhere where this type of crime is discussed.

    When I watch true crime shows the overpowering variable is fear. So many murders are disgracefully undercharged and the perpetrator walks within scant years. The rationale? Fear from prosecutors. It makes me want to scream every time. You'll have one of them go on camera and say, "Well, we didn't have X therefore we were worried that one juror might hang the case..."

    Blah. Blah. Blah. That prosecutor is essentially bragging about fear. Worst case scenario at the forefront of every thought. It is no different at Delphi. If I were a relative of one of those undercharged cases I would be in the district attorney's office every day. If you don't charge this case to deserved extreme I will be on every radio show and every television station and every newspaper. Throw away your misplaced fear. Have confidence in your employees and citizen jurors. Have faith in normalcy. Otherwise I can talk all day and I won't stop talking until the entire area understands what an overpowering wimp you are. Murder cases don't deserve prosecutorial wimps.
     
  5. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,463
    Likes Received:
    27,975
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I didn’t know where to post this article - the study that is trying to link genetics (MAOA gene), neurodevelopmental issues and brain trauma, plus environmental issues - to serial killers and violent killers.

    Since I am mostly here now, and the thread is moving slowly, I post it here. Pretty interesting.

    (if there is a forum to move it to, feel free to point at it).

    Neurodevelopmental and psychosocial risk factors in serial killers and mass murderers - ScienceDirect


    The other study, from Vanderbilt University, linking brain trauma and acquired sociopathy. Interesting pictures of the brain. I always thought of temporal lobes being involved, but apparently, frontal lobes dysfunction is more prevalent in this group.
    New Study Links Brain Injuries to "Acquired Sociopathy"
     
  6. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,463
    Likes Received:
    27,975
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My theory is that BG might be pretty recognizable, but he was not the only one, or maybe was sent to the bridge to fetch the girls. If, truly, there is little or no DNA, then whoever planned it might have thought of not even being seen with the girls. This is why they ask about the car, the drivers, they are trying to link BG to someone else, and so far, they haven’t found the information they needed.
     
  7. margarita25

    margarita25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    48,508
    Likes Received:
    186,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This actually picks up our discussion from here:

    Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

    ETA: Bringing forward some of my posts on the subject:

    A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret

    “The criminal brain has always held a fascination for James Fallon. For nearly 20 years, the neuroscientist at the University of California-Irvine has studied the brains of psychopaths. He studies the biological basis for behavior, and one of his specialties is to try to figure out how a killer's brain differs from yours and mine.

    About four years ago, Fallon made a startling discovery. It happened during a conversation with his then 88-year-old mother, Jenny, at a family barbecue.

    "I said, 'Jim, why don't you find out about your father's relatives?' " Jenny Fallon recalls. "I think there were some cuckoos back there."

    Fallon investigated.

    "There's a whole lineage of very violent people -- killers," he says.

    One of his direct great-grandfathers, Thomas Cornell, was hanged in 1667 for murdering his mother. That line of Cornells produced seven other alleged murderers, including Lizzy Borden. "Cousin Lizzy," as Fallon wryly calls her, was accused (and controversially acquitted) of killing her father and stepmother with an ax in Fall River, Mass., in 1882.”

    Snip

    “After learning his violent family history, he examined the images and compared them with the brains of psychopaths. His wife's scan was normal. His mother: normal. His siblings: normal. His children: normal.

    "And I took a look at my own PET scan and saw something disturbing that I did not talk about," he says.

    What he didn't want to reveal was that his orbital cortex looks inactive.

    "If you look at the PET scan, I look just like one of those killers."”

    Snip

    “Fallon calls up another slide on his computer. It has a list of family members' names, and next to them, the results of the genotyping. Everyone in his family has the low-aggression variant of the MAO-A gene, except for one person.

    "You see that? I'm 100 percent. I have the pattern, the risky pattern," he says, then pauses. "In a sense, I'm a born killer."”

    —-


    Can Your Genes Make You Kill?
    “To save his life, his legal team took an unusual approach, never before admitted in a capital-murder case. They sent a sample of Waldroup’s blood to the molecular genetics lab at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. Lab techs there were told to look at a specific gene. Sure enough, they found Waldroup had a genetic variant on his X chromosome, one that coded the enzyme monoamine oxidase-A (MAOA).”

    Snip

    “Partly for this reason, the study of behavioural genetics remains a controversial topic, with disagreement not just over the science itself, but even more so about the therapeutic, societal and legal implications.

    Too much might have been made too soon of early findings that made correlations between alleles of certain genes and tendencies to antisocial or criminal behaviour. Indeed, most researchers in the field were appalled by the decision of an Italian appeal court in 2009 to cut the sentence of a convicted murderer by one year on the grounds that he had a version of the MAOA gene, which has been linked to aggression and violence (Feresin, 2009). There is equal dismay over some US courts that went the other way and accepted genetic factors as evidence for the prosecution, leading to higher sentences on the basis that people with particular alleles cannot be cured and will remain a risk to society for longer.

    “Taking genetic factors into account when sentencing is plain stupid, unless we are talking about something like Down's syndrome or some other syndrome that drastically reduces intelligence and executive functioning,” insisted Anthony Walsh from the Criminal Justice Department at Boise State University in Idaho, USA. “This is the kind of “genetic determinism” that liberals have worried themselves silly over. They just have to take one or two neuroscience and genetic classes to dispense with their ‘my genes/neurons' made me do it. Nothing relieves one of the obligation to behave civilized.””

    EMBO Reports
    The European Molecular Biology Organization
    The psycho gene
    Philip Hunter
    The psycho gene

    —-

    ETA: @Charlot123 , it seems there is actually a WS thread for the article you posted here:

    Research: Neurodevelopmental and psychosocial risk factors in serial killers and mass
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    x_files, watcher9, Andieinsyd and 8 others like this.
  8. sunshineray

    sunshineray Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,295
    Likes Received:
    15,519
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Think of this senario. What if BG's choice of coercion was a knife. All he'd have to do is grab one of the girls, hold the knife on her threateningly and speak his orders. I believe both Abby or Libby would have obeyed for fear their friend would be hurt. They loved each other.
     
    x_files, watcher9, crhedBngr and 7 others like this.
  9. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,463
    Likes Received:
    27,975
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thank you.

    Super interesting.
    I am curious to find out what prevented Fallon who had MAO-L version of the gene from becoming a criminal, in other words, what genes played the protective role.

    Another interesting article hinting at the possibility between the degree of provocation and the aggressive response of MAO-L carriers. It took me a while to understand, but honestly, it would seem that the article described a certain type of a criminal. A fast thinker, and not without empathy, but very sensitive to rejection, and becoming very violent only at higher perceived level of threat/narcissistic injury.


    Could the perp from Delphi could be of this type? He would fly under all the radars because at low provocation, he’d not behave in a violent way.

    Describes one of my POIs to a T, but I don’t think it will end up being him.

    Monoamine oxidase A gene (MAOA) predicts behavioral aggression following provocation
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  10. sunshineray

    sunshineray Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,295
    Likes Received:
    15,519
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All lawyers are not cut from the same cloth. Wouldn't it be grand if every prosecutor was a Vincent Bugliosi? They just aren't. LE has to work with what they are provided with. Some prosecutors are fearless, many are fearful, all I think want to convicted the bad guys. Some are just better at it. Does Carroll county have any fearless bulldog prosecutors?
     
    Blue Amethyst likes this.
  11. margarita25

    margarita25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    48,508
    Likes Received:
    186,422
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good question :)
     
  12. The suspect might be something like a social media communications expert and perhaps it makes sense offering a bit of "news" along that way.
     
  13. MingyMoo

    MingyMoo Former Member

    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    1,776
    Trophy Points:
    93
    To ne honest @FromGermany I am thinking along the same lines as you in your above comment,. However I wasn't thinking youtubers et al. As for your idea about the video. I am finding myself time to experiment with such things. When I looked at my first attempt yesterday with me walking forward but talking to the camera I noticed everything was back to front and had to flip the video whilst editing so as it orientated correctly. LOL my first attempt and I took the video even I didnd't understand where I was until I flipped it.

    MingyMoo
     
  14. stattlich1

    stattlich1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    14,327
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'd really like if you'd elaborate, be more specific, as to what you think Libby saw in his movements, but even more so, your theory of the killer coming in from the south. How would he be on the bridge in that video if he was already on the southeast side of the bridge?

    When I first became aware of this case, and that's not too long ago, my first escape route theory that made sense to me was south along the abandoned railroad to W 200 N. Easily could have been picked up by someone, and/or parked at the Baptist Church.

    Some have said that rail bed would be too overgrown, or swampy. I have a hobby that puts me in to old road beds. Full of thickets, thorns, trees, vines, and at times swampy. That never kept me from going through :)

    Another thought, someone posted LE had only ever mentioned one request from the public asking about sighting of a person, and that was if anyone saw someone walking along Rt. 25. Bridge Creek gives great access to the bridge and surrounding area. PLUS, affords a water escape to confound potential tracking dogs.

    The south route does afford the opportunity to vacate the area swiftly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    watcher9, catastrophe_, BNA and 7 others like this.
  15. tresir2012

    tresir2012 Former Member

    Messages:
    11,158
    Likes Received:
    56,427
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think the family would know. It would be obvious to the funeral director also. They have been instructed not to release details IMO.
     
  16. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,897
    Likes Received:
    9,888
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why go through all that trouble?
     
    sleuther0192837465 and Cryptic like this.
  17. MingyMoo

    MingyMoo Former Member

    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    1,776
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Oh dear I thought the above was from @FromGermany it wastn't it was from @No it's not I couldn't get back in time to edit my previous post. However in response to @No it's not (Nin) reference the video.
    I really do think that idea is not beyound the realms of possibility and is very plausible.

    MingyMoo
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  18. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,551
    Likes Received:
    21,068
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A source familiar with the investigation described the full recording as "the stuff of nightmares."

    Police Release Sketch of Suspect, 5 Months After Murder of Indiana Teens

    I'll address the audio in another post.
     
  19. stattlich1

    stattlich1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,121
    Likes Received:
    14,327
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I assume you are referring to why would the murderer(s) go south, via the railbed? If so, it is entirely possible they knew the home at the end of the private drive was not occupied. That affords them relatively safe access to that property and a heavily wooded area to the southeast, culminating in a short stretch of wooded area to route 200.

    That gets them away from the usual trails, the bridge, the creek, the entrance to the trails, the cemetery, all those points that seem obvious to search.

    The route south through the woods gives the killer(s) immediate removal from what they may have determined to be the most likely places to be detected.

    If you refer to a possible Bridge Creek escape, that would be an excellent way to escape detection, be picked up on the highway, and get out. If a killer is already wet, walking out through a stream, or in and out of a stream, would be a non issue.

    carry on :)
     
  20. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,551
    Likes Received:
    21,068
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In February 2017 one Snapchat video could only be a maximum of ten seconds long, so if Libby was trying to film BG quickly and furtively, the most she would have got was 10 seconds.

    In July 2017 there was an app upgrade that allowed you to record 6 x 10 second videos.

    This is how to record 60-second videos on Snapchat
     
    watcher9, MJPeony, BNA and 8 others like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice