Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

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Fizzle said:
If the girls made a run for it, then it must have been after he somehow gagged them. With all of the people who were said to be nearby that day around that time, it's hard to believe that the screams of them running across the creek and scrambling up the bank would not be heard.
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I can say it would be really hard to hear anything over a creek and through the leaf litter.
Only if you were very close.
Winds from the west pushing noise east upstream that afternoon. Other people would not be arriving to the bridge for another 30 minutes. I think shots would be heard, but not screams.
 
IMHO I live in a rural area, near a 50 acre lake, surrounded by woods, & a handful of homes. I can distinctly hear people talking while on trails in the woods next to the lake. They aren’t screaming, just having normal conversation (this is from the other side of the lake, near a dirt road) & I can hear them well enough to know that people are nearby. And my hearing isn’t the greatest.
We have to take into account that sound can carry quite far.
We also do NOT KNOW 100% if any of the witnesses heard anything (like screaming or people running through the water) that day as none of them have come out & said whether or not they did. I do not recall any of these witnesses being questioned or answering specifically about it one way or the other. I am sure LE knows the answer, but we may not until trial.
The only witness that said anything about hearing something IIRC is that this witness stated there was a couple arguing under/near the bridge. Nothing else has been stated publicly AFAIK.
Remember, some of the people that were there that day were probably there AFTER BG had already murdered the girls.
MOO
 
sleuther0192837465 said:
IMHO I live in a rural area, near a 50 acre lake, surrounded by woods, & a handful of homes. I can distinctly hear people talking while on trails in the woods next to the lake. They aren’t screaming, just having normal conversation (this is from the other side of the lake, near a dirt road) & I can hear them well enough to know that people are nearby. And my hearing isn’t the greatest.
We have to take into account that sound can carry quite far.
We also do NOT KNOW 100% if any of the witnesses heard anything (like screaming or people running through the water) that day as none of them have come out & said whether or not they did. I do not recall any of these witnesses being questioned or answering specifically about it one way or the other. I am sure LE knows the answer, but we may not until trial.
The only witness that said anything about hearing something IIRC is that this witness stated there was a couple arguing under/near the bridge. Nothing else has been stated publicly AFAIK.
Remember, some of the people that were there that day were probably there AFTER BG had already murdered the girls.
MOO
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I think the couple was BG and one of the girls.
Anyone else under the bridge would have seen or heard something just a hundred feet upstream.
MOO They would have alerted police as to what they saw when the search started, or ended.
 
sleuther0192837465 said:
IMHO I live in a rural area, near a 50 acre lake, surrounded by woods, & a handful of homes. I can distinctly hear people talking while on trails in the woods next to the lake. They aren’t screaming, just having normal conversation (this is from the other side of the lake, near a dirt road) & I can hear them well enough to know that people are nearby. And my hearing isn’t the greatest.
We have to take into account that sound can carry quite far.
We also do NOT KNOW 100% if any of the witnesses heard anything (like screaming or people running through the water) that day as none of them have come out & said whether or not they did. I do not recall any of these witnesses being questioned or answering specifically about it one way or the other. I am sure LE knows the answer, but we may not until trial.
The only witness that said anything about hearing something IIRC is that this witness stated there was a couple arguing under/near the bridge. Nothing else has been stated publicly AFAIK.
Remember, some of the people that were there that day were probably there AFTER BG had already murdered the girls.
MOO
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@sleuther0192837465, you bring up some interesting questions (and don't we each have a *ton* of questions about this case? :))... While Deer Creek in Delphi is hardly the same as a large (or small) lake, it seems to me that sound does travel better over water than over land. Thus, the fact of your having heard conversations from the opposite side of a lake near you is fairly normal. Water/moisture in the air enhances the speed of sound.

As someone here recently (last few days) mentioned, there was not much in the way of vegetation near the MHB in February, 2017 since it was still winter; there were also plenty of dry leaves (which help to dull sound) on the floor of the woods. Just adding this info to the mix.
 
Boxer said:
I think the couple was BG and one of the girls.
Anyone else under the bridge would have seen or heard something just a hundred feet upstream.
MOO They would have alerted police as to what they saw when the search started, or ended.
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I wonder about that “couple”...never heard if they ever came forward, so you could be right or it could have been BG arguing with his accomplice? I have no idea if anyone else is involved, but since we don’t have much info, it is just speculation on my part. MOO
 
Tiger Stripes said:
@sleuther0192837465, you bring up some interesting questions (and don't we each have a *ton* of questions about this case? :))... While Deer Creek in Delphi is hardly the same as a large (or small) lake, it seems to me that sound does travel better over water than over land. Thus, the fact of your having heard conversations from the opposite side of a lake near you is fairly normal. Water/moisture in the air enhances the speed of sound.

As someone here recently (last few days) mentioned, there was not much in the way of vegetation near the MHB in February, 2017 since it was still winter; there were also plenty of dry leaves (which help to dull sound) on the floor of the woods. Just adding this info to the mix.
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I’m not a scientist lol Just speaking from my own experience.
I also live near a river...and sound has carried there as well. Winter, spring, summer & fall, it is possible. MOO
 
sleuther0192837465 said:
IMHO I live in a rural area, near a 50 acre lake, surrounded by woods, & a handful of homes. I can distinctly hear people talking while on trails in the woods next to the lake. They aren’t screaming, just having normal conversation (this is from the other side of the lake, near a dirt road) & I can hear them well enough to know that people are nearby. And my hearing isn’t the greatest.
We have to take into account that sound can carry quite far.
We also do NOT KNOW 100% if any of the witnesses heard anything (like screaming or people running through the water) that day as none of them have come out & said whether or not they did. I do not recall any of these witnesses being questioned or answering specifically about it one way or the other. I am sure LE knows the answer, but we may not until trial.
The only witness that said anything about hearing something IIRC is that this witness stated there was a couple arguing under/near the bridge. Nothing else has been stated publicly AFAIK.
Remember, some of the people that were there that day were probably there AFTER BG had already murdered the girls.
MOO
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I agree with what you have said about being aware of people in wild areas and sound traveling great distances in wild areas. I have experienced the same thing.

What I have noticed personally is that I am very aware of the presence of other people when I am hiking alone but when I am with other people, I am focused on the people I am with and I miss the subtleties of nature and the world around me. When I am alone, I hear birds and animals, the leaves and wind along with human sounds like voices and vehicles.

I point this out because if Cheyenne's friends or the group of teens were in the area and they were talking among themselves, it is quite possible that they would not have recognized the noise of a struggle (not every person screams when attacked) even if they were within a 1/4 mile or so because they were absorbed in their own conversations and activity.
 
almagata said:
I agree with what you have said about being aware of people in wild areas and sound traveling great distances in wild areas. I have experienced the same thing.

What I have noticed personally is that I am very aware of the presence of other people when I am hiking alone but when I am with other people, I am focused on the people I am with and I miss the subtleties of nature and the world around me. When I am alone, I hear birds and animals, the leaves and wind along with human sounds like voices and vehicles.

I point this out because if Cheyenne's friends or the group of teens were in the area and they were talking among themselves, it is quite possible that they would not have recognized the noise of a struggle (not every person screams when attacked) even if they were within a 1/4 mile or so because they were absorbed in their own conversations and activity.
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Oh I agree. When you’re with a group, you’re paying more attention to who you are with.
It’s really frustrating because we have no idea what exactly the witnesses heard (if anything).
 
stattlich1 said:
Per Mr. Ives....

"There was no logical reason why anybody would have known those girls would be there that day".

MOO
I'm often wrong on here, but I took this to mean that in fact, somebody DID know those girls would be there that day, there was just no logical reason found to explain HOW, or WHY he knew. I interpreted it also to mean that the scene was left in such a state so as to prove the killer knew they would be there that day.

For me, I'll have to wait for further explanation, but for now, it would have been much more clear, had it been stated "the killer did not know the girls would be there that day".
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BBM
I find that statement by RI rather subjective. It actually makes no sense to me at least. I don't believe RI has any way of knowing conclusively, that there was no "logical" reason why anyone would have known the girls would be there. Information travels instantaneously these days as is proven by the pic Libby posted of Abby on Instagram. Even prior to that, all it would take is KG telling someone, anyone that she dropped off her sister at the trails. Or, DG telling someone he has to pick up the girls at the trails on his way home. Or, BP telling someone innocently that the girls went to the trails. If someone was looking for an opportunity to commit this crime, that's all it took. Libby used apps where messages disappear and were likely difficult to track.

Just seems like an odd thing to say. Of course, that's JMO.
 
Fizzle said:
If the girls made a run for it, then it must have been after he somehow gagged them. With all of the people who were said to be nearby that day around that time, it's hard to believe that the screams of them running across the creek and scrambling up the bank would not be heard.
Click to expand...
It's actually hard to run and scream and more so when frightened. I'm also thinking it unlikely that he could have gagged them on his own, holding a gun and putting a gag in ones mouth with one hand while the other watched.

Without knowing the details of the COD or other injuries sustained prior to death it's pretty hard to draw any meaningful scenarios on how this went down after they got to the end of the bridge and "down the hill."
 
susiQ said:
BBM
I find that statement by RI rather subjective. It actually makes no sense to me at least. I don't believe RI has any way of knowing conclusively, that there was no "logical" reason why anyone would have known the girls would be there. Information travels instantaneously these days as is proven by the pic Libby posted of Abby on Instagram. Even prior to that, all it would take is KG telling someone, anyone that she dropped off her sister at the trails. Or, DG telling someone he has to pick up the girls at the trails on his way home. Or, BP telling someone innocently that the girls went to the trails. If someone was looking for an opportunity to commit this crime, that's all it took. Libby used apps where messages disappear and were likely difficult to track.

Just seems like an odd thing to say. Of course, that's JMO.
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Yes, which is why it shocked me so much to hear this. All of the things you list are within the realm of "logical ways," and I'm sure there are many others besides. So I hope to hear more about his conclusions in the podcast, but I believe he may be expressing confidence that the investigative team thoroughly researched her apps, talked to everyone in Libby's family and felt sure they were not being lied to, etc. It's a bold claim in an investigation that hasn't made a lot of them so it really hit me.

I didn't read into it that something at the "strange" crime scene pointed to this conclusion. Without hearing the broader context of the clip, it seemed he was just listing some "weird" things about this particular case.
 
x_files said:
Curveball, what if Bridge Guy is actually a Bridge Gal? I mean it's possible, correct? Unless LE has DNA and they ruled that out.
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It is very possible. The height does not rule out a woman. And if it is a woman who hides it, or a man who usually comes across as a woman, one of the girls accidentally getting hold of this information (detrimental for a person in rural Indiana) could be the reason to eliminate them.
 
Boxer said:
MOO
I see him crossing over his left leg to his right towards Libby cutting off Abby. His right foot is already planted in the direction.
I think this is the first step running them down, the first step of the crime.
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Boxer, but didn’t we hear that he was far from them, that the video is pixelated because it is enlarged. In such a case, he could not be cutting off anyone, could he?
 
Charlot123 said:
Boxer, but didn’t we hear that he was far from them, that the video is pixelated because it is enlarged. In such a case, he could not be cutting off anyone, could he?
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MOO I thought from the various people who figued out the dustance that he was video'd about 60ft from Libby.
That is only 12 paces about 8-15 seconds away.
Old house lots are 50ft at the street so about one+ front yard width away.
MOO Abby was still on bridge, so I do think he initiated a rush along the right side.
 
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