Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. bradfordsleuth

    bradfordsleuth Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for posting this info.

    Quoted bbm
    I would so love to see the names that were on those records! ;)
     
  2. Marzipan

    Marzipan Well-Known Member

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    Questions: What is the age of the youngest SK (or any killer) to have left multiple bizarre signatures? Is it usually something that progresses so wouldn’t happen with a very young adult killer? Or have some started young enough that they would be that far along with signatures by 18-20-something?
    Just wondering if multiple signatures makes very young guy a lot less likely.
     
  3. No it's not

    No it's not that simple

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    That is correct. However, the US Supreme Court ruled on the Stored Communications Act/ 4th Ammendment with a benchmark decision in June of 2018. Perhaps there was still some wiggle room until then. This article from just a few months prior to the USSC decision comes to mind and illustrates the problematic well IMO, as well as showing how differently some of the district courts in CA viewed the base for a cell tower dump/search warrants ruling:

    Regardless of the Outcome in United States v. Carpenter, the Stored Communications Act is Problematic

    ALL IMO

    -Nin
     
  4. Cj707

    Cj707 Well-Known Member

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    This kind of goes along with the question in my mind regarding signatures. Is that something found in the first kill or is that generally found and recognized in subsequent crimes? I hope that makes sense.
     
  5. distracted

    distracted Well-Known Member

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    Based on your profession, I'm hoping you can answer this for me. Isn't it unusual to leave a signature, much less three of them?

    Leaving one signature might require some forethought but three? It seems to me that someone committing a random crime of opportunity wouldn't leave a signature unless he is a SK or intends to be one.

    After I read about the Iowa case a couple of months ago, I couldn't shake the feeling that there is a connection.
     
  6. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    interesting. Even before I read, walks with a limp, I thought, what if one covers his lower face with a scarf, would he look like BG.

    We don’t know if BG speaks French, but perhaps this guy is bilingual? Would any part of Canada have an accent similar to MW? Something above North Dakota, close to the border?
     
  7. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    What if Libby’s video has more on it? BG approaching Abbie and touching her?
     
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  8. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    Well, if we assume that the loop is one step after another, he kicks the ankle of one leg with the other one, like a tic, but I can not be too sure as maybe, it is not a continuous loop?
     
  9. sunshineray

    sunshineray Well-Known Member

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    I felt no disrespect from you so please no worries there. I will have to respectfully disagree with you about some LE actions early on though by saying while I know small town hearts were in the right place, the lack of professional concern shown to the situation overnight is something that will never set right with me. It's AJMO
     
  10. red by me
    I don't know, but I imagine the course of the crime different, because the terrain was very different, where the killer met the girls for the first time. In Evansdale he probably was still driving his (white boxing) car, when he saw the little girls. In Delphi he had to park his (whatever) car a bit away, before he was able to watch/meet someone, this time Abby/Libby. MOO
     
  11. bbm
    A dream would come true! Would be so very useful, IMO. :rolleyes::p
     
  12. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger Well-Known Member

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    The bridge needs to be renovated. Otherwise it continues to deteriorate and an accident is inevitable. We can't wait for Bridge Guy to be captured because there isn't a logical timetable. These threads could be going a decade from now.

    After I walked the bridge in November my immediate thought was that it needs to be fully fenced off near the foot of the bridge so other knuckleheads can't do what I did...effortlessly loop around the gate with the lock and warning sign. That discourages nothing.

    Planks are soft and squishy. That's the overriding problem that is seldom mentioned and won't show up in any drone video. It's not a big deal avoiding the missing plank or the areas where the gaps are widest. The planks vary wildly in terms of stability and it isn't always obvious via appearance. Maybe 1/3 of the way through I put my left foot forward on a seemingly solid plank. Next thing you know it's giving way to the point I'm leaning backward and doing a full two-armed whirlybird trying to regain my balance.

    Fortunately it succeeded. I don't want to guess what would have happened if I'd fallen fully backward into the planks. But a situation like that is why I decided beforehand to stop and film at only certain intervals, instead of filming while walking as others have.

    Maybe 100 feet later there was another lesser version of the same thing. That's when I decided there was no chance I'm crossing again on the way back. It ended up a one hour detour through the woods but that was perfectly acceptable.

    Also, the platforms on the bridge seem secure but just imagine if one of them goes. Nothing can save you. That could happen without warning. It would be favorite to give way in an instant without warning. At least if a plank gave way you might be able to fall in such a manner not to go through the opening.

    Charming visuals, huh?

    Such a great area. I walked several trails in Delphi including Canal Park area, Trailhead Park area and Moyer Gould Woods. Monon High is far the best kept and most scenic. It deserves to be the centerpiece. I've read the details of the planned renovation including rails and an expanded trail all the way back to Delphi. That's a mile away.

    Very ambitious and admirable but I have no idea how they can do it for that price tag. Maybe I'm using my area as reference. The permitting alone would run $260,000.
     
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  13. distracted

    distracted Well-Known Member

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    It does need renovation, I agree. It does look like a beautiful area. The timing is just off for me. I can't explain it but it just doesn't feel right.
     
  14. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I also think it places great doubt toward the notion that the disturbance down the hill beyond the end of the bridge was so blatantly obvious. If that were the case then everyone searching that afternoon would have been focusing on that area. It's maybe 130 yards from the disturbance at the end of the bridge to where Libby's shoe was found.

    Check any overhead view and you'll see that the area east of the bridge is a small semi circle. In February minus leaves you can cover that area in 15 minutes or less. Comfortably. You could sit and rest for 5 minutes and still cover it in 15. Two slopes straight down. No caves or any concealment areas. Plenty of wide open nothing. Thin trees. Then the creek.

    One of the podcasts indicated they checked the huge cement platforms under the bridge, actually having men dangerously scale the platforms. That's what they were focusing on, an accident from the bridge itself. Obviously that would leave the girls smack under the bridge and not 130 yards away. That was probably more logical than any other incident. But seemingly they overplayed that version to the exclusion of anything else.

    Then once the bodies were found and video discovered the confrontation point becomes obvious. That lends to the disturbance beyond the bridge suddenly being exploded in value and focus.

    Minus knowledge of this crime, if we had a picture of that down the hill area from 4 PM on February 13 I bet it would have looked like plenty of leaves on the side of a slope. One person would see one thing and another person something else entirely.
     
  15. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger Well-Known Member

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    When I hear 25 phones my first thought is that nobody visits these trails. That's the reality of the matter. I'll continue to wager the under on any number they want to profess toward trail visitors on February 13, 2017. I'll take foundational logic comfortably above anecdotal details.

    Delphi is a trail town so they are proud of that fact and don't want to acknowledge the low number of times it actually plays out that way. When Kelsi was asked how many times she and Libby had visited the bridge she hesitated and said, "Multiple times."

    No kidding. That was an unintentional hint toward the reality of the matter. This encompasses year after year. It's not dozens of times. It is a vague multiple times.

    There are 3 homes along the outset of the trail. There is a business right there alongside County Road 300 as it curves. There is a small community behind the bridge. And it all encompasses 25 phones, even though you know darn well they used a liberal time frame from that day.
     
  16. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    If he was on the trail already when he first saw A and L, then you're right, that might be a different circumstance.

    If he was driving by and saw A and L dropped off, or saw them somewhere on their drive there and followed them until he saw them dropped off, that would be more similar. This is what I think happened, but none of us know for sure.

    In that situation, he would have had to park, that's true, but he knew the girls would be somewhere on the trail. I know the timing would have to be just right, but IMO, both these cases were opportunistic killings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  17. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again for the information and description of the area below the bridge. I've made a red circle on the attached map. Is it possible to walk in that area along the south bank of the creek below the steep slope? On the map it looks like it would be out of view from the bridge, especially the farther you go east. None of the videos I've seen have a good shot of that spot, so I've always been curious.

    *Note: I'm short on time and can't get a better screenshot now, but just off to the east of where this photo stops, there appears to be another good crossing area in the creek (basically directly below the house). It looks like rock bottom all the way across, and higher, but discerning anything from a satellite map is limited...
     

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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  18. TheVisual

    TheVisual Well-Known Member

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    If nothing happened in the video then why not just show the whole thing? It's obvious that they used the stills to make the continuous loop and cut out what they wanted to conceal. Hopefully Abby was trying to stop him by jumping at his back and he miss stepped.
     
  19. What if...

    What if... Central Indiana

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    I’ve fallen behind on the thread as it looks like it’s picking up steam again. Looking forward to catching up.

    Since it appears there are new things being discussed from the podcast, and in some ways we’re starting at the beginning again, I just want to mention something that stood out to me early on which I believe may be even more relevant now that we’re hearing about 3 signatures....

    I remember the tone of the very first presser after the girls bodies were found. I believe it was DC, but can’t recall for certain. Anyway, that first presser had a subtle undertone that made it sound as though they believed social media perhaps played a part in the murders. There was a comment (paraphrasing) “we believe our citizens are smart enough to figure it out - parents need to know what is going on in their children’s lives” - something along those lines. But my observation wasn’t so much about what was said as it was the way it was presented. It was presented in a calm manner that is typical for LE when making a statement about a case. Within the next day or so, the pressers changed and were being presented with a heightened sense of alarm.
    I’ve always wondered what caused the change as the investigation of the crime scene had already been started prior to that first press release.
    My only thought was that either there is really distressing information that was recovered from that phone, or something that wasn’t obvious at the crime scene was discovered during autopsy.

    Perhaps an irrelevant observation, but thought I’d throw it out there for consideration.

    All MOO....
     
  20. What if...

    What if... Central Indiana

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