Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

Here is the old audio in a loop:
http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

Thread #99 Thread #100 Thread #101 Thread #102 Thread #103 Thread #104 Thread #105 Thread #106 Thread #107 Thread #108 Thread #109 Thread #110 Thread #111 Thread #112 Thread #113 Thread #114 Thread #115 Thread #116 Thread #117 Thread #118 Thread #119 Thread #120 Thread #121 Thread #122 Thread #123 Thread #124

Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
Link to Media Maps & Timelines #2 *No Discussion*

IMAGE Discussion Thread

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as off topic. Hopefully the following clarifies.

For those enquiring about the use of initials, reference is made in TOS under Name Calling and Derogatory Name Variations by simply stating "Initials may be used, and are encouraged".

There are rules and then there are policies. WS policy is to NOT use full names so that the names of innocent people are not forever etched in stone on a crime sleuthing website when they may have had nothing to do with the actual crime. It could also have potential legal ramifications that nobody needs. The policy has been that we can use full names for a victim and a POI/suspect who has been officially named by LE but for most others we use initials. It is a matter of discretion and WSers have been adhering to that policy for about 20 years now and it has served us well, so it is very possible for members to get used to it. If we can get to know members by their anonymous user IDs such as 1973Aplus8, surely we can get used to initials used throughout a specific case.

Example: One thread some of us are familiar with, a person not only self-identified, but also stated they knew they were a POI although LE had not named them as such. That highly qualified person subsequently reported they were having difficulty getting employment because their name was showing up to potential employers in google searches connected to discussion of a horrific murder.

This is Thread #123 for Abby and Libby and we've have done alright so far. If someone wants to complete the list of initials and abbreviations, please submit it to us via private message and we will include it in future Opening Posts. Otherwise, please stay on topic in this thread.

If you have questions, please do not discuss them on the thread so we don't derail the thread with off topic conversation. You may private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

That one of the girls was forced to watch is rumor.

Please do not bring rumors to WS and discuss them. Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hi sillybilly. I'm listening to the True Crime Garage Delphi podcast as I write this. The hosts are discussing that very thing right now. At roughly the 5:56:05 mark one host says that one of the detectives said that the cellphone video haunts him because of the look on one girl's face. Then a female host replies this: " The investigator said that it's always haunted him, that he has watched Libby's cellphone video multiple times, and what bothers him is the reaction on one girl's face, watching what is happening to her friend." I'm not being deliberately argumentative, I am just wondering if we cannot take what we hear on the podcasts as fact. I have believed that we can, especially when the podcasts have LE involvement in production.

"Forced to watch" was removed due to it being social media comment. There is a distinction between "forced to watch" (terminology sourced via rumor) vs "watching what is happening" (from an approved source). While it is a most likely scenario that one of the girls DID see/watch what was happening to the other, that does not necessarily translate into being forced by the perp to do so as an element of the crime.

Let's just stick with our approved sources without adding an interpretation by random social media commentators.

 

[Sillybilly]

WS is fact based and speculation about numerology being involved doesn't fall into the fact based category. Such posts have been removed.

 

[Sillybilly]

Posts bickering over victim blaming have been removed. If you think there is victim blaming, Report the post and let Mods/Admins review it instead of arguing about it and having the thread closed for cleanup.

Thread is open again.

 

[Sillybilly]

Posts sleuthing/discussing JKK and the judge have been removed as they are not officially named POIs/suspects.

Members may sleuth and discuss such things behind the scenes via private messaging amongst themselves but may not post such information on this public discussion thread.

 

[Silver_produce0]

I got confused reading old threads on here and reddit. I think I saw “is younger than he looks” and “looks younger than he is”, which are the opposite. #1 makes sense with the old sketch if we see a 40-50 y/o that is really 20-30. #2 makes sense with the new sketch if we see a 20-30 y/o that is really in his 40’s.

The amount of tips they received is insane. I think they said 30,000 at one point. I also saw a reference to the FBI system for cataloging tips called “Pyramid”. If anyone has info on how that works I would love to know.

 

[Justice101]

As far as tips are concerned, they might have been overloaded in their database and someone mischaracterized an entry or even blocks of tips got deleted.

Can you imagine setting up a mobile database with people calling into a 800 number? The tip is given and then the phone caller asks questions on the tipster, the category (saw someone, knows someone who looks like that, knows someone who dresses like that, saw someone 3 weeks ago at Hardees who looked like that... etc.) It probably takes 5 minutes to get the tip and all the other information. I wonder if there was a long wait on the phone lines due to a backlog and people who were calling in just gave up?

 

[JnRyan]

I got confused reading old threads on here and reddit. I think I saw “is younger than he looks” and “looks younger than he is”, which are the opposite. #1 makes sense with the old sketch if we see a 40-50 y/o that is really 20-30. #2 makes sense with the new sketch if we see a 20-30 y/o that is really in his 40’s.

The amount of tips they received is insane. I think they said 30,000 at one point. I also saw a reference to the FBI system for cataloging tips called “Pyramid”. If anyone has info on how that works I would love to know.

Good point. I never considered the different wording on age and looks and I don't remember the exact quotes.

On "Pyramid", I've checked and can't determine if this a S/W that the FBI wrote or had written specifically for them. To be sure, I've seen DoD take a COTS (Commercial Off-The-Shelf) S/W pkg like SAP and utilize it for production and financial data. Doing some further searching I found this paper, dated 2005 or 15 years ago.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/211677.pdf
Discussion of what maybe the Pyramid system in use by the FBI starts on page 36 and appears to be a COTS package that a company named Advanced Technology Systems customized for the FBI. (A search of the company, Advanced Technology Systems (atsva.com on Jones Drive in McClean VA) doesn't seem to reveal an existing company. They are either out of business or merged with another company.)

 

[JDough]

I got confused reading old threads on here and reddit. I think I saw “is younger than he looks” and “looks younger than he is”, which are the opposite. #1 makes sense with the old sketch if we see a 40-50 y/o that is really 20-30. #2 makes sense with the new sketch if we see a 20-30 y/o that is really in his 40’s.

The amount of tips they received is insane. I think they said 30,000 at one point. I also saw a reference to the FBI system for cataloging tips called “Pyramid”. If anyone has info on how that works I would love to know.

Welcome @Silver_produce0. We are glad you have joined Abby and Libby's thread.

Here is some information regarding the Pyramid System:

Every tip received is entered into an FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips locally and across the country to find any possible connections.

The process is always working, comparing tips received about the Delphi murders with hundreds of other cases and tips. Investigators say they have worked a number of tips and leads that have come directly from that system or the tip line, although they say both have been able to connect dots they had no idea existed.

Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

 

[JnRyan]

As far as tips are concerned, they might have been overloaded in their database and someone mischaracterized an entry or even blocks of tips got deleted.

Can you imagine setting up a mobile database with people calling into a 800 number? The tip is given and then the phone caller asks questions on the tipster, the category (saw someone, knows someone who looks like that, knows someone who dresses like that, saw someone 3 weeks ago at Hardees who looked like that... etc.) It probably takes 5 minutes to get the tip and all the other information. I wonder if there was a long wait on the phone lines due to a backlog and people who were calling in just gave up?

Add to that the fact that even the best written software packages are subject to the GIGO rule. (GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out) Just as important as the software are procedures that govern what data to enter and how to enter it. The FBI could have the world's greatest database package for cataloging tips and if the data is incomplete or erroneous, the resulting analysis is also incomplete and erroneous. IOW, who entered the tip data into Pyramid? An FBI trained technician? Or did the task force assign a person or persons and the FBI came in with a manual and some classroom training for these individuals who may have had no previous experience with the package? Or do the investigators enter the data or update the data? We don't know. I do know that as an auditor I saw some well written and very sophisticated systems provide some sloppy results due to the inadequate input.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

This is my biggest reason why I believe they may have had THE tip early on and it may have fallen through the cracks. They had, what, 150-200 LE in that task force in the first couple of months, from something like 20-25 different agencies. Communication among teams and written documentation of tip follow ups had to be a monumental task in itself. A task that these LE officials probably had not experienced before on a scale this big with such a diverse group of LE.

Quoted bbm. I totally agree.

In the first 10 days, there could have been tips that were recorded with only partial information or even the follow-up on those tips could have been incomplete, leaving a lead uninvestigated.

As a result, it is possible that a business or home was missed in an area canvas and a witness who had critical information was never interviewed.

When Carter mentioned that they were just starting over last April, it could have been due to a recent follow-up of one of those 'incomplete' tips that resulted in the 'new information' and it then turned the case towards a new direction.

As early as Feb 23rd, 2017, the tip line was being manned by the FBI's Major Case Contact Center, in Washington D.C.

Delphi Murder Tip Line Being Manned by FBI Call Center

I am confident that the representatives responding to the tips called in to the call centre are very well-trained on what types of questions to ask, and how to enter the information to into their database.

If a tip fell through the cracks or was overlooked, I believe it was in those first 10 days.

JMO

 

[TheVisual]

Yes, yes, yes!!!!! My thoughts exactly.

Can LE unseal it?

 

[carbuff]

Quoted bbm. I totally agree.

In the first 10 days, there could have been tips that were recorded with only partial information or even the follow-up on those tips could have been incomplete, leaving a lead uninvestigated.

As a result, it is possible that a business or home was missed in an area canvas and a witness who had critical information was never interviewed.

When Carter mentioned that they were just starting over last April, it could have been due to a recent follow-up of one of those 'incomplete' tips that resulted in the 'new information' and it then turned the case towards a new direction.

As early as Feb 23rd, 2017, the tip line was being manned by the FBI's Major Case Contact Center, in Washington D.C.

Delphi Murder Tip Line Being Manned by FBI Call Center

I am confident that the representatives responding to the tips called in to the call centre are very well-trained on what types of questions to ask, and how to enter the information to into their database.

If a tip fell through the cracks or was overlooked, I believe it was in those first 10 days.

JMO

I'm thinking that it might also be a case of two half-tips that haven't been put together to make a single picture. Like when you're doing a jigsaw puzzle and half the face is on one piece and half's on the other, and the half on one piece looks like part of a flower or a building or something.

 

[JnRyan]

I'm thinking that it might also be a case of two half-tips that haven't been put together to make a single picture. Like when you're doing a jigsaw puzzle and half the face is on one piece and half's on the other, and the half on one piece looks like part of a flower or a building or something.

If the two tips are from the same source, Pyramid is supposed to make the connection. If the two are from two different sources it may depend on both files having certain key words in order to match them up if I'm reading that paper that I referenced above.

 

[JDough]

Can LE unseal it?

LE may be required to get a court order to unseal certain records. However; there is an exception for serious and/or violent offenses. If I understand correctly, misdemeanors may be records that require a court order. The OJJDP (Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention) some great information and statistics regarding sealed/expunged records.

Unsealing of juvenile court records, 2012

• While most states have procedures for sealing juvenile records, the process may not be permanent. Certain circumstances, such as a specified offense or a court order, provide for the unsealing of court records. A few states allow for sealed records to be viewed by specified persons or for specified reasons.
• Records can also be expunged (deemed to have never existed) or actually destroyed. Rhode Island is the only state that does not have procedures that provide for the sealing, expungement, or destruction of juvenile court records.

Much more at link!

 

[JnRyan]

Possible sealed juvenile record.

JMO

I couldn't let this go as it caused me to think more on the matter. In Indiana it is possible to have the records destroyed. Apparently a sealed record can not viewed by the public, but they can by a court. OTH, a destroyed record is gone and no one has visibility on it. That a judge would allow a sexual related crime to be destroyed? IDK. Peeping tom or voyeurism maybe. Sexual assault? IDK. It wasn't that long ago that many states had a statute of limitations on rape. So who knows.
IPDC: How to Expunge Your Juvenile Records

 

[JnRyan]

LE may be required to get a court order to unseal certain records. However; there is an exception for serious and/or violent offenses. If I understand correctly, misdemeanors may be records that require a court order. The OJJDP (Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention) some great information and statistics regarding sealed/expunged records.

Unsealing of juvenile court records, 2012

• While most states have procedures for sealing juvenile records, the process may not be permanent. Certain circumstances, such as a specified offense or a court order, provide for the unsealing of court records. A few states allow for sealed records to be viewed by specified persons or for specified reasons.
• Records can also be expunged (deemed to have never existed) or actually destroyed. Rhode Island is the only state that does not have procedures that provide for the sealing, expungement, or destruction of juvenile court records.

Much more at link!

HA! You just did beat me to it. This is actually more comprehensive as we don't know where the killer grew up.

 

[rosesfromangels]

In my occupation, when I hit a wall and just can't seem to resolve a big problem, I will assemble a team of thinkers who excel in their particular area, but are all vastly different from each other. Then, we start a mind mapping exercise and what is usually a very lively debate. I facilitate, but let the group decide what ideas get discarded, and where we end up. The results never cease to amaze me.
I think whatever the process used, there needs to be a similar exercise that doesn't rely solely on conventional LE thinking. I'd like to see a diverse array of experts enlisted.

Amateur opinion and speculation