Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

Here is the old audio in a loop:
http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as off topic. Hopefully the following clarifies.

For those enquiring about the use of initials, reference is made in TOS under Name Calling and Derogatory Name Variations by simply stating "Initials may be used, and are encouraged".

There are rules and then there are policies. WS policy is to NOT use full names so that the names of innocent people are not forever etched in stone on a crime sleuthing website when they may have had nothing to do with the actual crime. It could also have potential legal ramifications that nobody needs. The policy has been that we can use full names for a victim and a POI/suspect who has been officially named by LE but for most others we use initials. It is a matter of discretion and WSers have been adhering to that policy for about 20 years now and it has served us well, so it is very possible for members to get used to it. If we can get to know members by their anonymous user IDs such as 1973Aplus8, surely we can get used to initials used throughout a specific case.

Example: One thread some of us are familiar with, a person not only self-identified, but also stated they knew they were a POI although LE had not named them as such. That highly qualified person subsequently reported they were having difficulty getting employment because their name was showing up to potential employers in google searches connected to discussion of a horrific murder.

This is Thread #123 for Abby and Libby and we've have done alright so far. If someone wants to complete the list of initials and abbreviations, please submit it to us via private message and we will include it in future Opening Posts. Otherwise, please stay on topic in this thread.

If you have questions, please do not discuss them on the thread so we don't derail the thread with off topic conversation. You may private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

Other than a similarity to the Delphi sketch, there is no indication from LE that Martrell Weaver is considered a POI or suspect in the murders of Libby and Abby. We've been down this road before where there are similarities between sketches and other individuals but there ends up being no connection.

Please do not continue to discuss him unless/until we find out that LE is investigating him as a POI or suspect in relation to the Delphi case.

As usual, members may sleuth behind the scenes and discuss via private messaging where up to 20 members can be added to the private conversation. Just don't post your findings on this public thread.

If there is any change, we will review it if/when that happens.

Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is becoming rife with rumor posts and creating extra work for our Moderators in having to review and trying to determine what is known fact and what is rumor.

RUMORS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

If you can't link information to Websleuths approves sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

This is Websleuths folks. Take time to do your homework. Please don't just throw stuff out there. Before you post something make doubly sure what you are stating is FACT as we know it from MSM, LE or another approved Websleuths source.

Thank you.

 

[Sillybilly]

Basic Websleuths folks .. no social media rumors ! Sometimes they're right, most times they're wrong.

If members want to talk about it in private messaging, that's one thing, but please don't bring rumors to WS.

Thanks.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

Has nothing ever been said about this case by jailhouse snitches? I wonder if BG has been inside before..

 

[MistyWaters]

Has nothing ever been said about this case by jailhouse snitches? I wonder if BG has been inside before..

Considering the $230,000 reward, I wonder how many tips regarding supposed confessions LE has received? I bet a lot, jailbirds included and another reason for LE to hold back information from the general public. Otherwise it’d be difficult for LE to distinguish between legitimate tips and made-up-stories by others just looking for a chance at an instant windfall. JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Surely only a very small minority of such offenders would risk communicating with LE, in which case in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it seems very unlikely.

And even if he had contacted LE to taunt them, it surely would be public knowledge? LE would presumably want to keep the channel of communication open in the hope he might reach out again and provide some further clue about his identity, so how else would they respond if not through some public forum (not like he is going to leave a return address)?

Direct contact with LE (like BTK did) is not super common, IMO, I think most offenders probably realize it is an easy way to get caught.

Sometimes this type of offender contacts LE not to taunt them per se but to insert themselves into the investigation. They may present themselves as a potential witness or as someone with a helpful tip to share. The purpose of this, of course, is the desire to know what LE has figured out. If BG is indeed fairly local, I wouldn't be at all shocked to find out eventually that he did this.

The flip side of this is that not everyone who inserts themselves into an investigation does so out of guilt, there's also mental illness, low intelligence, and just very bored people out there. And some of these innocent people will end up on a short list of POIs because of their need for attention.

There are very few benefits to the investigation for LE to let the public know if they suspect the offender has tried to contact them. IMO

 

[Skibunny]

Still keep thinking about someone overhearing / seeing via social media, about the girls and parents hatching a plan for that day. Its not that long ago that my husband and I (mostly me) were driving teenagers all over the place. Picking up their friends, team mates, and siblings and dropping them off at various houses, rinks, and schools.
So on the odd occasion that my husband had to enter into the equation, I would give him instructions about where to go, at what exact time, and who exactly he was picking up.
Then, for some reason, and this is my key point : he would repeat every last detail back to me. Basically broadcast it for everyone within earshot to hear. I know this because he also did it when on his phone to our kids. Also some of our friends, particularly the Dads, àlso do this. I think its some kind of thing some people do. So if some dirtbag heard it, he would have all the details of the girls excursion. Start time, pick up time, and pick up place, two girls including their first names. I really hope this has been explored by LE, now memories are fading a bit after 4 years.

 

[Tricia]

My apologies if this has been posted. Read this article.
We have until tomorrow to submit questions that might be chosen to submit to the Sheriff
Log into Facebook
It case you can't read the article here is a screen shot
Email questions to editor@carrollcountycomet.com

 

[Tricia]

The post on FB is from Libby's grandma Becky

 

[somequestions]

Of course the circumstances of each case are unique, but there are patterns, true? Or else what is the point of studying any type of crime and trying to understand how offenders made decisions and acted, how they got to be like they are?

The solved cases I cited are actually some of the most similar to the murders of Abby and Libby that are known. As I stated, two child victims abducted and murdered at the same time are in a category that is quite rare even among the rarest types of murder. The FBI thinks there are only around 15 similar cases in the last 50 years where a killer went after two children at once. Is there any value in knowing how the solved cases in this rare group are alike? How old the perpetrators tended to be (average age 27), where they tended to live or work (near the crime scene), if they have a history of violence (yes), what their motivation was (almost always sexual)? Or do investigators just throw their hands up with each new crime and say "oh well, each case is unique"?

The study of criminal psychology and forensic psychology are important, as is criminal profiling. But I wonder sometimes if the direction of an investigation or the LE profile is why some cases end up sidetracked or do not get solved.

I look at Tabitha Tuder's case and the LE idea that she was abducted and forced into prostitution and wonder where that comes from?

I look at Molly Bish's case and wonder if it really was the man in the white car? In that case, though, I can at least understand why that was such a valuable lead.

And I look at this case and wonder how people seem so sure that he must be from Delphi, IN or the surrounding area because he could cross the Monon High Bridge. I know it is dilapidated. I wonder about whether the second sketch is based on criminal profiling because of the young face and not based on the actual evidence, Liberty German's video.

So I wonder about these questions, even if they might never have answers.

 

[Yemelyan]

The study of criminal psychology and forensic psychology are important, as is criminal profiling. But I wonder sometimes if the direction of an investigation or the LE profile is why some cases end up sidetracked or do not get solved.

I look at Tabitha Tuder's case and the LE idea that she was abducted and forced into prostitution and wonder where that comes from?

I look at Molly Bish's case and wonder if it really was the man in the white car? In that case, though, I can at least understand why that was such a valuable lead.

And I look at this case and wonder how people seem so sure that he must be from Delphi, IN or the surrounding area because he could cross the Monon High Bridge. I know it is dilapidated. I wonder about whether the second sketch is based on criminal profiling because of the young face and not based on the actual evidence, Liberty German's video.

So I wonder about these questions, even if they might never have answers.

In Tabitha Tuders case, and the Molly Bish case, and likely in this Delphi case, the answers are all the same. LE became focused on, or developed, particular leads because a tip or multiple tips came in that could be corroborated through evidence that only LE knew. Then LE worked those tips and gained intelligence that guided their investigation. This is the exact reason they hold info back and talk about the integrity of the investigation.

Just because they haven't told the public every detail of how they came to their investigative conclusions, does not mean LE are guessing or incompetent. Sometimes LE comes to a dead end, not necessarily because they were headed down the wrong path, but just because no further information could be developed at that time (sadly). Sometimes later on technological advances occur and you have movement again.

Obviously, in some cases there are mistakes made by LE, but it shouldn't be the public's default assumption every time a case takes a long time to solve.

All MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

I agree, and would add that on my end they didn't want to come right out and say they fudged some of the investigation early on.

My hunch is they disregarded a witness' words early on in the case, which is how we now have the sketch of a young-ish male. That witness and that sketch are linked, and while I don't think a sketch of our suspect necessarily will lead to identifying him, I think that what the witness told investigators was crucial to putting together a timeline. I also think it was crucial to ruling out/disregarding some things LE said early on, such as "could be a drifter", things along those lines. Like Awsi Dooger, I've been to the trails and the surrounding area. People just don't walk along and stumble upon Monon High Bridge and the trail connected to it.

JMO

BBM
Agree-- I have been to the trails and the bridge also and the town and you do NOT just stumble upon it.
BG was familiar with the area, IMO

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

There was a podcast that had 3 retired FBI agents that talked about the Delphi murders. I'm sorry I don't recall their names. It was said in discussions that most likely the killer had a "lair" (the crime scene) all prepared to bring his victims there.

I've wondered if actual knowledge of the Delphi crime scene had led them to think that or it was a generalization developed by years of experience in murder, by their profiling skills.

What are your thoughts about a prepared "lair"? The thing that makes me hit a brick wall with that is the fording of the creek in Winter. Why would an inexperienced killer even include that in their plan? If the Delphi killer was experienced and not a first time offender, again why make a plan to cross that creek?

BBM.
Maybe this is one of the killer’s signatures. mOo

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I decided to look at just double child abduction murders by a non-family member, like what happened to Libby and Abby, which we know are the rarest of the rare types of crime. Haven't we heard the statistic that the FBI only knows about 15 such cases since the 1970s? How many of these cases involve an offender who chooses two victims for his first murder?

Maybe instead of assuming someone who takes two victims at once is extremely experienced, we should start wondering if they are in fact very inexperienced and actually haven't thought through the crime very well?

Some of these offenders have known previous assaults against single victims that didn't progress to murder. If they went on to commit more murders, they usually targeted single victims the next time around. Perhaps learning from their crime that it's quite hard to control two victims?

.

Quoted bolded and snipped by me

I would like to add in a 25 plus year case that I have never ever forgotten about. It doesn't fit all of the criteria you mentioned, but is pretty darn close and I wanted to mention it (I have brought it up in the past - so please forgive the redundancy for those who may recall me mentioning this before.)

Terry Driver (Abbotsford Killer) A married father of two and son of a former Police Seargent.

Terry Driver - Wikipedia

The victims in this case were slightly older - (but still children JMO) (Misty 15 & Tanya 16) and the killer caught them by surprise by jumping out of a hedge at them while they were walking down a path to a party at night.

He had a baseball bat and ordered them to a secluded area in the bushes and asked them to take off their clothes. He began to rape Tanya while Misty decided to fight back with the bat and hit him with it while he was in the act. He manged to get the bat away from her and then beat her within an inch of her life and she was left for dead.

When she woke up, she tried looking for Tanya and couldn't find her....and somehow she managed to stumble to a nearby hospital and tell them what happened.

Tanya was found later on in a river and had also been beaten severely...although she was alive when thrown into the river.

He taunted police about this crimes for months afterwards.

Even wrote a letter addressed to LE and attached it to a wrench and threw it threw a persons window. It detailed some of his prior conquests (which touches on what you mentioned above re: attempts on single victims and then escalation to murder.

-One was a 12 year old girl he groped and she got away
-Another victim was attacked from behind and was knocked unconscious
-The third victim was found unconsious and taken to the hospital

I wonder if BG has ever contacted LE, taunting them like other killers have been known to do. Would they make that public though?

In the case I cited above, the killer did.

For months, Terry Driver taunted LE and made phone calls to them identifying himself as the killer (without giving his name.)

He monitered the police scanner's to hear how LE responded to his phone calls and attended Tanya's funeral.

He stole her tombstone.

He wrote a threatening note to Misty and left it on the hood of a car at a radio station.

LE ended up broadcasting the recordings of the telephone calls he made where he identified himself as the killer.

His brother recognized his voice and contacted LE.

His thumbprint on the tape attached to the wrench is what led to his arrest in 1996.

There are several non msm sources out there about this case.

I believe that the killer in the Delphi case offered to be a type of resource to LE very early on, as a way for himself to attempt to access information about the case.

"You want to know what we know." Doug Carter

Your question above bbm
Perhaps unwittingly they did.

All JMO
ETA - thanks to @MistyWaters for your comments above about the DC quote - gives me food for thought

 

[Awsi Dooger]

BBM
Agree-- I have been to the trails and the bridge also and the town and you do NOT just stumble upon it.
BG was familiar with the area, IMO

In 2017 why was it necessary to physically stumble upon the bridge?

Let's say Abby and Libby had indeed been catfished. And that person lived in Nebraska. He had never visited Indiana previously until February 13, 2017. Seemingly the followers of this case would be more willing to accept and understand that scenario, than of an aspiring perpetrator who targeted isolated areas including trails, becoming well aware of Monon High Bridge via that method.

IMO, the new realities of security cameras all over the place, plus DNA as the great identifier, are naturally going to lead to evolution of one-time killers as well as serial killers. They have to adjust to the times. For whatever reason we are determined to rely on conclusions and methodology of olden eras.

As a handicapper, if I switched professions to killer I know darn well I'd make sure I would only kill somebody I didn't know. I'd make darn sure I'd kill somebody in an area that I couldn't be connected to. I'd make darn sure it was an area without cameras and where I could prepare and take my time to make sure not to leave DNA. I'd make sure there was an easy getaway route so that I'd be long gone before the victim was discovered and anyone was looking for a killer.

Those are only a handful of variables. Seemingly so easy to prioritize. Yet law enforcement and the vast percentage of the public prefers to believe that each and every one of them is being thrown away:

Hey, I know her. I'll kill her. I'll kill her just after catfishing her. I'll kill her after catfishing her in an area where I live and am well known. I'll kill her after catfishing her in an area where I live and am well known and I'll do so on a school snow day after telling everyone I know that I'm well aware it's a school snow day.

And so forth. I just don't get it. These guys are specialists. Just because they are specialists in an evil realm that the rest of us can't relate to doesn't mean we should ignore that they are specialists and devoting the 10,000 hours toward their craft.

 

[Charlot123]

And I look at this case and wonder how people seem so sure that he must be from Delphi, IN or the surrounding area because he could cross the Monon High Bridge. I know it is dilapidated. I wonder about whether the second sketch is based on criminal profiling because of the young face and not based on the actual evidence, Liberty German's video.

So I wonder about these questions, even if they might never have answers.

Respectfully snipped. I am not sure they think he is from Delphi, I think they wonder if he has/had a connection to Delphi.

Usually, the explanation why LE think a certain way, is way more simple, once we get to know the details of the case. For example, in KB's case, initially a lot of assumptions were tied up to her being a pilot. We tried to explain her phone pinging off the towers in ID by it being thrown out of the plane into the gorge. We did not know that the LE could trace the phones traveling together, first to PF's house, then, to ID. We did not see the recording they saw.

I think that here, the explanation, too, will be more simple, we just don't know enough.

But since we don't, my theory is, the guy merely knew his way around Delphi too well. Remember how LE said, "he moved around quickly"? To me, it means that the killer might have known some shortcuts, and of their existence, we have no clue. Just some back gate, or else. He had the knowledge to move quickly, and there is something in the crime that can be explained by this knowledge.

I am not sure that the girls crossed the creek, and so did the guy. I have an inner feeling that he was not wet when he was escaping. Maybe there are some shortcuts to get to the CS bypassing the creek, but only the locals know them? Perhaps there are some details that one can't figure out by visiting the place, and the guy knew them?

(It's like, if someone breaks into the house, we can be wondering how there is no evidence of the perp on the neighbor's camera, and how he managed not to leave traces, but maybe he lives behind the house, and observed the owners hiding the key under the back door rug, you know? And all activity is in the back yard.)

Yesterday one poster remembered Christine Jessop's case. Maybe in Delphi case the assumption is wrong in a way similar to hers, hence the Delphi killer can not be found? In Jessop case, the suspect was someone close - an odd neighbor. And, the fact that someone else, close enough to Christine, could have heard from his wife about the kid being home alone, never occurs to anyone, you know? Because between him and Jessop, stands one more person, his wife.

Here, I think, it is something similar. The perp. was close to the girls' orbit, but not in it, and was connected to someone who knew them. This is why he is not noticed, nor did they recognize him,, he is one person away from them. And that one person is not even considered, because, like Jessop's wife, it is a woman?

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

In 2017 why was it necessary to physically stumble upon the bridge?

Let's say Abby and Libby had indeed been catfished. And that person lived in Nebraska. He had never visited Indiana previously until February 13, 2017. Seemingly the followers of this case would be more willing to accept and understand that scenario, than of an aspiring perpetrator who targeted isolated areas including trails, becoming well aware of Monon High Bridge via that method.

IMO, the new realities of security cameras all over the place, plus DNA as the great identifier, are naturally going to lead to evolution of one-time killers as well as serial killers. They have to adjust to the times. For whatever reason we are determined to rely on conclusions and methodology of olden eras.

As a handicapper, if I switched professions to killer I know darn well I'd make sure I would only kill somebody I didn't know. I'd make darn sure I'd kill somebody in an area that I couldn't be connected to. I'd make darn sure it was an area without cameras and where I could prepare and take my time to make sure not to leave DNA. I'd make sure there was an easy getaway route so that I'd be long gone before the victim was discovered and anyone was looking for a killer.

Those are only a handful of variables. Seemingly so easy to prioritize. Yet law enforcement and the vast percentage of the public prefers to believe that each and every one of them is being thrown away:

Hey, I know her. I'll kill her. I'll kill her just after catfishing her. I'll kill her after catfishing her in an area where I live and am well known. I'll kill her after catfishing her in an area where I live and am well known and I'll do so on a school snow day after telling everyone I know that I'm well aware it's a school snow day.

And so forth. I just don't get it. These guys are specialists. Just because they are specialists in an evil realm that the rest of us can't relate to doesn't mean we should ignore that they are specialists and devoting the 10,000 hours toward their craft.

What's going to lead to the evolution of SK is the time we spend in isolation, and our respective imaginary worlds ballooning, so when we are out, we, tbh, are not totally there.
Also, the ease with which today people can obtain morbid images off the Inet. It doesn't require anonymity, someone joins a group and discusses the images and then leaves, and go prove who he is.
Thinking along your lines...not a wager-maker, if I were to kill, I'd do it in another country because, even with the Interpol and all, the LE is thinking along certain patterns. So if someone lived in Logansport and moved to NZ, psychologically he is off everyone's radar. And as long as he returns once,, leaves soon and doesn't come back, no one thinks of him.
But this very thought brings me back to the Packers, with their huge migration of the workers. In my mind, Packers are still a possibility, but the man, probably, is long gone. Packers look like that back house neighbor who is observing everything and sees the habits, but is not seen because he never gets into the neighbor's camera.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Surely only a very small minority of such offenders would risk communicating with LE, in which case in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it seems very unlikely.

And even if he had contacted LE to taunt them, it surely would be public knowledge? LE would presumably want to keep the channel of communication open in the hope he might reach out again and provide some further clue about his identity, so how else would they respond if not through some public forum (not like he is going to leave a return address)?

If someone (BG) reduced his involvement into the investigation after that PC and Carter's haunting words, it would have been a sign to LE as well .... Though the killer might be clever and didn't for that reason? Imagine: suddenly the right sketch out (YBG) after 2 years plus the accusations (you want to know, what we know) - must have been a dilemma for BG in fine tuning his behavior since then. IMO