Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #133

[Brainy]

What do I say... what an unspeakable tragedy this is!
I wonder what made Libby take the video/audio?
If they felt the danger from the distance, could they run away, hide? Did they make any attempts to call 911 or family?
That “go down the hill” sounds so controlled and deliberate. I wonder if this evil monster had a gun to control the girls...
Do you think this was a planned attack or wrong-time wrong-place situation?

 

[Brainy]

What do I say... what an unspeakable tragedy this is!
I wonder what made Libby take the video/audio?
If they felt the danger from the distance, could they run away, hide? Did they make any attempts to call 911 or family?
That “go down the hill” sounds so controlled and deliberate. I wonder if this evil monster had a gun to control the girls...
Do you think this was a planned attack or wrong-time wrong-place situation?

 

[Imvp2]

I seem to recall that both girls were given sweatshirts to wear by KG, as they were dropped off at the bridge that day.
Yet, in the descriptions of the " missing girls" on
WRTV Indy, only one is mentioned wearing a sweatshirt.


"Libby is described as standing 5'4" tall with a heavy build. She has blonde shoulder-length hair and blue eyes. She was last seen wearing a tie-dyed shirt with fringe at the bottom, gray sweat pants with unknown black lettering and black Nike shoes.

Abby is described as standing 5'4" tall with a small build, medium length blonde hair and hazel eyes. She was last seen wearing a gray zip-up sweatshirt with a burgundy T-shirt underneath and blue jeans."

I'm confused now. Has this been discussed before? I apologize if I missed it.

 

[Yemelyan]

What do I say... what an unspeakable tragedy this is!
I wonder what made Libby take the video/audio?
If they felt the danger from the distance, could they run away, hide? Did they make any attempts to call 911 or family?
That “go down the hill” sounds so controlled and deliberate. I wonder if this evil monster had a gun to control the girls...
Do you think this was a planned attack or wrong-time wrong-place situation?

Apparently they sensed some danger at the time (family members who have heard more of the unreleased audio have said in interviews that the girls mentioned the man) but perhaps it didn't rise to the level where they thought their lives were in danger. Personally I believe that their gut told them something was off about the guy but they had no idea what was truly about to happen.

We know from the sheriff's recent Q&A in The Carroll County Comet two things that pertain to your questions. First, the sheriff says that the killer was able to gain control over them on the south end of the high bridge by a combination of manipulation and intimidation.

Secondly, the sheriff described the girls as "victims of circumstance or opportunity" in that same Q&A. So that would seem to indicate that the fact that they were killed instead of anyone else at the trails that day was a wrong time/wrong place situation.

I would say, however, to your specific question, that "planned attack" and "wrong time, wrong place" can coexist in the same crime. An offender can plan his crime in great detail but not have a specific victim in mind, rather a specific day and place where he feels it will be easy to find the type of victim he wants. He can plan the types of things he will do to a victim in great detail but not be too picky about knowing who the victim is in advance.

 

[Inthedetails]

I would say, however, to your specific question, that "planned attack" and "wrong time, wrong place" can coexist in the same crime. An offender can plan his crime in great detail but not have a specific victim in mind, rather a specific day and place where he feels it will be easy to find the type of victim he wants. He can plan the types of things he will do to a victim in great detail but not be too picky about knowing who the victim is in advance.

snipped

This is where I started, years ago, with theories. Then swayed into catfishing, but am now back at this theory of a predator poised to attack when the opportunity arises.

Still, I do have a nagging worry about snapchat. Maybe BG was in the area and saw the snapchat and knew just where to go to find his prey. He seemed like he was walking with a mission on the bridge.

JMO, subject to change as we go along

 

[Brainy]

Apparently they sensed some danger at the time (family members who have heard more of the unreleased audio have said in interviews that the girls mentioned the man) but perhaps it didn't rise to the level where they thought their lives were in danger. Personally I believe that their gut told them something was off about the guy but they had no idea what was truly about to happen.

We know from the sheriff's recent Q&A in The Carroll County Comet two things that pertain to your questions. First, the sheriff says that the killer was able to gain control over them on the south end of the high bridge by a combination of manipulation and intimidation.

Secondly, the sheriff described the girls as "victims of circumstance or opportunity" in that same Q&A. So that would seem to indicate that the fact that they were killed instead of anyone else at the trails that day was a wrong time/wrong place situation.

I would say, however, to your specific question, that "planned attack" and "wrong time, wrong place" can coexist in the same crime. An offender can plan his crime in great detail but not have a specific victim in mind, rather a specific day and place where he feels it will be easy to find the type of victim he wants. He can plan the types of things he will do to a victim in great detail but not be too picky about knowing who the victim is in advance.

It is so scary and chilling to think he just crossed the bridge with such confidence and deliberation. And at that point he knew exactly what was going to happen while these young girls stood there in fear and uncertainty.

This brings back a memory I have. I used to go for walks at a park when I was 15/16 y/o. One time, there was someone behind me and I kept stopping and looking back. At one point, I fastened my pace and eventually made a run for it! Now, I don’t know if this person behind me that gave me a bad feeling was up to anything nefarious. My first instinct = this doesn’t feel right + get away as far as you can + as far as you can...

It is sort of unusual that Libby and Abby reached the end of the bridge and stayed there. I understand that they didn’t know what was about to happen, but Libby was concerned or alert enough to make the video. And then why would they just stay there... how would having proximity or confrontation with this guy would help the situation... I don’t know... maybe there were so scared at that point that they didn’t know which course of action to take... but then comes the audio of the guy telling them to go down the hill...
if it was that late by “go down the hill”, Libby could have dialed 911 and put them on the phone... or something... I’m not sure how graphic of useful the full audio is.

 

[Yemelyan]

It is sort of unusual that Libby and Abby reached the end of the bridge and stayed there. I understand that they didn’t know what was about to happen, but Libby was concerned or alert enough to make the video. And then why would they just stay there... how would having proximity or confrontation with this guy would help the situation... I don’t know... maybe there were so scared at that point that they didn’t know which course of action to take... but then comes the audio of the guy telling them to go down the hill...
if it was that late by “go down the hill”, Libby could have dialed 911 and put them on the phone... or something... I’m not sure how graphic of useful the full audio is.

Snipped and bolded by me....

It seems from the interviews of family and Delphi locals that the girls, in that moment, may have been thinking they needed to go back across the bridge to put distance between themselves and him (perhaps a miscalculation on their part due to fear/nervousness). So they may have been waiting for him to pass so they could safely return to the spot where they were intending to be picked up by a family member. Evidently due to the dilapidation of the bridge/no handrails it was not common - among locals - to pass other people when crossing. So if this was their reasoning, their behavior was typical for bridge crossers. But this is speculation.

LE has said there is no more usable audio of the man on the video. There are other things said by the girls that have been heard by family and LE. Some members of LE have said it is disturbing to listen to the girls reacting to the situation but this may not speak to the graphic nature of the content, but just the knowledge of what was about to happen to them. Another member of LE has said that the video in its entirety is not very long (at least, not as long as the public supposes) and in his estimation there is nothing "earth-shattering" on it that would give the public any more identifying information about the man on the bridge.

 

[somequestions]

In my opinion, Abigail Williams and Liberty German are heroes because they were able to secretly get audio/video of the person thought to be their killer. And somehow they did not panic so the killer could realize he was recorded.

In other cases there does not seem to be as much hope without a confession or some type of major break with forensic evidence. But this case could be solved today if the right person sees the video and realizes they know the man on the bridge.

A sketch may not be a photograph, but the sketches put out by LE have not helped refresh anyone's memory over the past few years. I really think what is going to solve this case is that video. It is the audio/video that after all this time gives the hope that someday this case will be solved.

 

[raja]

Just a thought...and probably not true but, what if, the girls were leery of BG because there was a scary looking dog with this man. The possible sound between guys and down the hill is the sound of a dog. I know this idea was kicked around early on. Just a thought.

 

[Marzipan]

Are there Websleuths who think (or know and can show) they can see BG's eyes in any of the official images from Libby's phone? I have seen some people online claiming they can and I have convinced myself that I absolutely can and that his eyes are extremely close-set. But perhaps I am imagining I can see them. I have to really look at the image where he is looking up the most but I can find the eyes. Maybe this is like people hearing what they want to hear? Now I need to know because I've been seeing this for a few weeks, <Modsnip>

 

[Brainy]

Are there Websleuths who think (or know and can show) they can see BG's eyes in any of the official images from Libby's phone? I have seen some people online claiming they can and I have convinced myself that I absolutely can and that his eyes are extremely close-set. But perhaps I am imagining I can see them. I have to really look at the image where he is looking up the most but I can find the eyes. Maybe this is like people hearing what they want to hear? Now I need to know because I've been seeing this for a few weeks, <Modsnip>

I would like to see that but I truly don’t. The quality of image is too poor, and he has his head down. I can definitely see the hat, hands in the pockets and the jacket which kind of hides his build.

 

[photographer4]

Just a thought...and probably not true but, what if, the girls were leery of BG because there was a scary looking dog with this man. The possible sound between guys and down the hill is the sound of a dog. I know this idea was kicked around early on. Just a thought.

I'd be interested to know this as well, but then why doesn't any scary dog appear in the video clip that Libby made? A well trained doggo could have been placed in a "stay" somewhere off the bridge... ?

 

[raja]

If he was crossing the bridge with a dog he may have had it off leash. The dog could be well ahead of him. We do not know what all was on the video. JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

If he was crossing the bridge with a dog he may have had it off leash. The dog could be well ahead of him. We do not know what all was on the video. JMO

Normally I'm of the mindset that LE is totally justified and on the right course by not releasing details of an evidentiary nature but if they had any idea from the video that a dog was on the bridge with the man, then that's something they would be highly remiss not to release as it would be an identifying feature of the perpetrator. For this reason, I doubt there was a dog on the bridge.

There could be dog hair from the scene, this is a common type of trace evidence IMO.

 

[zencompass]

Normally I'm of the mindset that LE is totally justified and on the right course by not releasing details of an evidentiary nature but if they had any idea from the video that a dog was on the bridge with the man, then that's something they would be highly remiss not to release as it would be an identifying feature of the perpetrator. For this reason, I doubt there was a dog on the bridge.

There could be dog hair from the scene, this is a common type of trace evidence IMO.

Superb post @Yemelyan,

Dog hair could turn out to be crucial if found at the crime scene!

Trace Evidence — FBI

Hair
Hair examinations can determine if a hair is animal or human. If animal, the species and possibly breed of the animal can be determined. If human, the racial characteristics, body area, length, root type (naturally shed/forcibly removed), and any artificial treatment or damage can be determined. Hairs associated by microscopic comparison are also examined by the Mitochondrial DNA Unit.

 

[Brainy]

I don’t understand that “the suspect might have had a dog” theory AT ALL. Based on what? The audio recording just sounds muffled and I don’t hear any dog sound at all. I think if he had a dog, he and his dog would stand out more. Given that there weren’t that many people outdoors that day, I think someone would remember the “weird guy with an unleashed dog”, if it was the case.

 

[OverTheRhine]

Superb post @Yemelyan,

Dog hair could turn out to be crucial if found at the crime scene!

Trace Evidence — FBI

Hair
Hair examinations can determine if a hair is animal or human. If animal, the species and possibly breed of the animal can be determined. If human, the racial characteristics, body area, length, root type (naturally shed/forcibly removed), and any artificial treatment or damage can be determined. Hairs associated by microscopic comparison are also examined by the Mitochondrial DNA Unit.

This was the premise of a few forensic files episodes. One case involved a girl who was kidnapped and murdered by a neighbor. The mother recognized his voice from an anonymous 911 call about he location of her body. It turns out this guy used to walk his dogs all the time and talk to children. Well they found dog hair on her body and matched it up to the same breed as this guys dogs and ultimately convicted him.

NEIGHBOR IS GIRL'S KILLER, POLICE SAY

 

[zencompass]

This was the premise of a few forensic files episodes. One case involved a girl who was kidnapped and murdered by a neighbor. The mother recognized his voice from an anonymous 911 call about he location of her body. It turns out this guy used to walk his dogs all the time and talk to children. Well they found dog hair on her body and matched it up to the same breed as this guys dogs and ultimately convicted him.

NEIGHBOR IS GIRL'S KILLER, POLICE SAY

Dear @OverTheRhine,

Thank you for sharing this information! I wasn't aware of that case.

Very interesting! And, of course, we aren't privy (yet) to what the investigators found at the Delphi crime scene.

This is really good to hear! Dog hair has been found attached to shoelaces and bottoms of shoes of perpetrators so it's not just clothing

 

[sandy_80]

I don’t understand that “the suspect might have had a dog” theory AT ALL. Based on what? The audio recording just sounds muffled and I don’t hear any dog sound at all. I think if he had a dog, he and his dog would stand out more. Given that there weren’t that many people outdoors that day, I think someone would remember the “weird guy with an unleashed dog”, if it was the case.

right...an organized killer with a plan, wouldn't go hunting victims with a dog... keeping a low profile
a presence of a witness with a dog is possible on the other hand

 

[Brainy]

right...an organized killer with a plan, wouldn't go hunting victims with a dog... keeping a low profile
a presence of a witness with a dog is possible on the other hand

Yep! when you look at him, he is utterly undistinguishable. He looks like every guy. Your neighbor, your niece's football coach, a farmer, a cop... he is every man, and he is sure as heck not going children hunting with his pitbull unleashed and wandering freely. He is not trying to draw attention or engage in small talk with random strangers. He is trying to fit in as much as possible. Probably not making eye contact, saying "hi" to other park goers.