Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #133

[Yemelyan]

I really think the girls would not have crossed the bridge or would have dialed 911 if they had a prior unpleasant/creepy encounter at the park with this guy.

It may be more likely that they just had a weird vibe about him. Plus, I don’t think the guy would have done something prior to scare them off.

Sad to say, if 13-14 year old girls called 911 every time an adult man made odd comments, stared at them too long, tried to talk in an overly familiar way, or scared them in public, they would be calling all the time.

The objectification of really young teens by adult men is real and it is widespread. And it often starts out by "friendly" talk - "hey, why don't you smile more?" "I'm just teasing" etc which are really forms of microaggressions.

I have no problem believing that something like @Tealgrove proposed is what happened in this case.

 

[JnRyan]

Do you think BG has murdered anyone since?

I'm on the fence on that point. I do believe he has committed other violent or sexual type offenses, before and maybe since. The FBI's ViCAP system which is supposed to be a national database of violent offenses is so notoriously incomplete he could have murdered elsewhere and no connection can be made.

 

[JnRyan]

I sense that Abby became somewhat concerned while Libby was rightfully anticipating nothing more than a brief awkward encounter. Abby apparently asked about options. If Abby had insisted on running away I think Libby would have done so, despite the trespassing warning. But keep in mind the extremely tight time frame. They maybe had 15 seconds after Abby stepped off the bridge before Bridge Guy reached them. Libby's already turned around and facing Bridge Guy while standing just beyond the bridge. It's a strange situation but not one to automatically promote fear. I know darn well I would not have run away. I spent 24 years in Las Vegas and the median time I returned home was probably 2:30 AM. That's countless encounters with crackpots of every description on the Strip.

Someone who is either local or visited the bridge talked about an unwritten rule that you do not go on the bridge while someone else is crossing or coming back. This guy is obviously not following that rule. Liberty had crossed the bridge more than once and likely knew that bit of trivia. I often wonder if her initial reaction was not one of fear, but thinking, "What a jerk! I'm taking his photo. Wait till they see this."

 

[TheVisual]

Someone who is either local or visited the bridge talked about an unwritten rule that you do not go on the bridge while someone else is crossing or coming back. This guy is obviously not following that rule. Liberty had crossed the bridge more than once and likely knew that bit of trivia. I often wonder if her initial reaction was not one of fear, but thinking, "What a jerk! I'm taking his photo. Wait till they see this."

If he doesn't live there then he doesn't know the rule.

 

[pseudo_hum]

If he doesn't live there then he doesn't know the rule.

Agreed, IMO, if he did he didn't care.

 

[Becky Starkey]

I really think the girls would not have crossed the bridge or would have dialed 911 if they had a prior unpleasant/creepy encounter at the park with this guy.

It may be more likely that they just had a weird vibe about him. Plus, I don’t think the guy would have done something prior to scare them off.

I think the person meant, earlier at the park. KG did say something to that effect.

 

[Teche]

Yeah, I live in New Orleans. If I took off running every time something started to feel sketchy, I would be in much better shape than I am. It's not natural to run, just because someone seems odd. I mean, we could each count on one hand and easily recall a time we physically took off running. And we have many more years of living to count! It's 99.9% of the time not required. I think its unfair to expect that kids who are on a public trail in a town that they feel safe where other kids from school were would call 911 or take off running because someone was crossing the bridge and seemed a little creepy. I mean, come on. That's real odd expectations to put on kids, much less anyone. We only think that was what they should have done bc we wanted that story to end differently. But the reality is, most of us would not have run or called 911. He intentionally wasn't showing eye contact or being aggressive until he could get them into range. The girls responded appropriately. HE did not...... his fault only.

Ha, I hear you. I'm from south Louisiana and visit Nola often.

 

[MistyWaters]

If he doesn't live there then he doesn't know the rule.

I think common sense would prevail as it’s essentially a one-way bridge. The standard gauge between rails is 4’ 8.5”. But according to the photos the ties the now removed rails were perched on are quite wide so the walking space between them is probably not much more than 4’. Both Libby and the suspect weighed in the area of 200 lbs. There’s no railings on the old bridge and I just can’t imagine anyone foolhardy enough to perch themselves on the outer edge to allow someone to pass by. The ties are rotting and missing. Given the height of the bridge, all that, I think it’d be a natural presumption the girls wouldn’t intentionally cross paths with him on the bridge, instead it’d force them to the far end, especially if he was walking in the middle as he approached them. I’d think that follows the general principle of courtesy and safety for people walking to and fro on any narrow walking space?

JMO

 

[Shamrock1]

I don’t think we can assume they would have called 911. At that age, kids and especially girls tend to fear making a fuss, IMO. When kids are taught about 911, they’re cautioned against prank calls and examples of proper 911 use tend to be fire, blood, choking - not creepy guys, IMO. The “trust your gut” training and rape whistles kicks in around freshman year of college, IMO.

I’d be surprised - extremely surprised - if this was the first “creepy” guy they’d encountered. By 13, girls just accept the leers & looks & comments as part of life - not consciously, of course; they’ll parrot the correct answer in health class. MOO.

NYT had a great piece this month discussing how women spend their lives “consenting” to unwanted touch. I Spent My Life Consenting to Touch I Didn’t Want

 

[K.jill]

Today I’m back to thinking about the twist in the case and the statement that there was a lot of evidence that the crime scene but not what you would expect.

 

[Yemelyan]

Today I’m back to thinking about the twist in the case and the statement that there was a lot of evidence that the crime scene but not what you would expect.

I'm not sure the "twist" is related to anything evidentiary. Like you, I used to think it must be something very momentous but TL later clarified that when he was talking about "the twist," to him that was the fact that whenever people have gone missing in Carroll County in recent years, they have been found without major incident/harm. And this time they weren't.

It's a bit anticlimactic but he actually clarified this in two separate interviews, one was in episode 2 of the podcast Down the Hill.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Today I’m back to thinking about the twist in the case and the statement that there was a lot of evidence that the crime scene but not what you would expect.

Have you, or really anyone else reading this, actually written down an list of regular/normal evidence findings at a crime scene like this, accompanied by a list of unusual evidence that could have been found?
I guess I’m asking because I love making lists, and thought this may be a good idea to do. Then maybe perhaps we could share and compare our lists?
mOO.

 

[K.jill]

Have you, or really anyone else reading this, actually written down an list of regular/normal evidence findings at a crime scene like this, accompanied by a list of unusual evidence that could have been found?
I guess I’m asking because I love making lists, and thought this may be a good idea to do. Then maybe perhaps we could share and compare our lists?
mOO.

I like this idea of comparing lists. I don’t have anything written down just in my head.
And none of what I’ve come up with seems likely. I have asked myself if he could have purchased a bunch of stuff from a thrift store and left around the crime scene. This would insert a lot of DNA from different people. But that seems far fetched.

 

[margarita25]

I don’t think we can assume they would have called 911. At that age, kids and especially girls tend to fear making a fuss, IMO. When kids are taught about 911, they’re cautioned against prank calls and examples of proper 911 use tend to be fire, blood, choking - not creepy guys, IMO. The “trust your gut” training and rape whistles kicks in around freshman year of college, IMO.

I’d be surprised - extremely surprised - if this was the first “creepy” guy they’d encountered. By 13, girls just accept the leers & looks & comments as part of life - not consciously, of course; they’ll parrot the correct answer in health class. MOO.

NYT had a great piece this month discussing how women spend their lives “consenting” to unwanted touch. I Spent My Life Consenting to Touch I Didn’t Want

Libby was into criminology stuff, right? Was it forensics? Trying to remember, tia.

 

[MistyWaters]

Libby was into criminology stuff, right? Was it forensics? Trying to remember, tia.

No idea where criminology has come from, don’t think such a course would be offered to grade 8 students. However the summer before BP said Libby went to a Science summer camp for teens at Pardue and I think speculation grew onward from that.

 

[Tealgrove]

Libby was into criminology stuff, right? Was it forensics? Trying to remember, tia.

Yes she was. She did a visit to Perdue with her class.

 

[Laughing]

No idea where criminology has come from, don’t think such a course would be offered to grade 8 students. However the summer before BP said Libby went to a Science summer camp for teens at Pardue and I think speculation grew onward from that.

Forensics is a big theme for summer school in the last few years, IIRC that's what Libby's course covered.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'm not sure the "twist" is related to anything evidentiary. Like you, I used to think it must be something very momentous but TL later clarified that when he was talking about "the twist," to him that was the fact that whenever people have gone missing in Carroll County in recent years, they have been found without major incident/harm. And this time they weren't.

It's a bit anticlimactic but he actually clarified this in two separate interviews, one was in episode 2 of the podcast Down the Hill.

LE knew for a good long while that the majority of the public thought the “twist” in the case was something extraordinary. A lot of time was spent discussing what that might be. They could have clarified it long before they did. Not the first time they’ve done this type of thing, just let confusing information float around, when a quick statement could stop it. I just don’t get that. Incorrect and misleading information wandering around out there can in no way help the investigation in my opinion.

 

[MistyWaters]

Forensics is a big theme for summer school in the last few years, IIRC that's what Libby's course covered.

jmho ymmv lrr

At one time the summer science camp for teens was posted on Pardue’s website although it didn’t go into any detail.

However both girls had an interest in forensic science.

“Abby and Libby were only in eighth grade, but had already talked about pursuing careers in forensic science, Anna Williams said....

......”Libby already had her career path pretty much laid out. She wanted to work with the FBI, she wanted to solve crimes, she wanted to help people," her grandmother, Becky Patty, told ABC News. "If anybody wants to honor her, please, help solve her crime."...”
'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

 

[MistyWaters]

LE knew for a good long while that the majority of the public thought the “twist” in the case was something extraordinary. A lot of time was spent discussing what that might be. They could have clarified it long before they did. Not the first time they’ve done this type of thing, just let confusing information float around, when a quick statement could stop it. I just don’t get that. Incorrect and misleading information wandering around out there can in no way help the investigation in my opinion.

I agree. Maybe it’s to capture interest in this case to increase public awareness, a good thing, but LE has sure made a lot of vague comments lacking of clarity and really saying nothing. While I trust their competence mostly because the families stand behind the investigation, I have a sneaking suspicion the effort invested toward attempting to decipher those vague comments might also be designed to inflate their egos somewhat. Not only the killer, they surely know everyone else following this case wants to know what they know.

JMO