Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

[MistyWaters]

Snipped for brevity by me.

Just popping by after a long absence to catch up. I was thinking about JBC as a possible suspect in this matter after reading your post, and it suddenly occurred to me that he might not be a likely suspect at all, simply because someone officially involved in the investigation of the case (I forget who, might have been an officer or a prosecutor) has said we will be surprised when we find out.

What the hell is surprising about JBC? Nothing. He's nothing more than a common criminal and lowlife.
When they said they thought we'd be surprised, I wondered what made them think we would be? Surely no one would be shocked that a guy like JBC might also be a killer?

So this begs the question then, what is it they think the general public would be surprised to learn? Is is the precision with which the killer attacked and killed the girls? Is is the state of the crime scene? Perhaps the staging of the scene before the girls arrived there? Is the way the kids were left shocking? Would we be shocked to know who police think is responsible for their murders?

Maybe you’re referring to the”community will be shocked” comment? If so, I don’t think he wasn’t speaking to the public in general. When the comment was made in April/20 Leazenby clearly believed the perp was known locally. Has he changed his beliefs since then, he hasn’t said. JMO

“He said he still believes a local, or locals, committed the crimes. Leazenby said whoever did this “knew the lay of the land.” He said when an arrest is made, which he believes will happen, community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested. He said he believes the perpetrator will likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community.
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

 

[Ravenmoon]

Raven, I agree about believing what AW said. I would add a slight reservation, though. Attribution may have been given earlier (or later) in the video, but the part I listened to (thanks to MadMcGoo's timestamp) begins: "Let me read you what I got from somebody who's friends with one of the people who watched the video ..." The "watched the video" reference is AW, we learn a bit later in the discussion.

My slight reservation, though, is this: "... what I got from somebody who's friends with ..." I'm not saying that ISN'T true, but "somebody who's friends with" is awfully nonspecific. Who is this providing the information? GH appears to accept the information as true, but without a bit stronger identification of who provided the information, when this person had this discussion with AW, if AW has confirmed that elsewhere, if the information has been reported by another person ... it seems pretty vague to me. MOO, your mileage may vary, but I'm thinking I would not necessarily believe it's completely accurate without a bit more information to support it. Just MHO.

Absolutely.
I agree. I would say , however, that as much as I dislike GH's attitude at times, I do believe that he is careful with the information he presents because of his ties to the girls families. I have not known him to sensationalize any part of the Delphi case.
He seems to respect the German and Williams family and I would have to believe that he vets any information that comes his way.


AMOO JMO MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

By @photographer4… “The only one benefiting from their refusal to release more details or other information is the killer himself.”

Perfectly said!
I wish someone would put that on billboards across Indiana!

 

[minazoe]

Snipped for brevity by me.

Just popping by after a long absence to catch up. I was thinking about JBC as a possible suspect in this matter after reading your post, and it suddenly occurred to me that he might not be a likely suspect at all, simply because someone officially involved in the investigation of the case (I forget who, might have been an officer or a prosecutor) has said we will be surprised when we find out.

What the hell is surprising about JBC? Nothing. He's nothing more than a common criminal and lowlife.
When they said they thought we'd be surprised, I wondered what made them think we would be? Surely no one would be shocked that a guy like JBC might also be a killer?

So this begs the question then, what is it they think the general public would be surprised to learn? Is is the precision with which the killer attacked and killed the girls? Is is the state of the crime scene? Perhaps the staging of the scene before the girls arrived there? Is the way the kids were left shocking? Would we be shocked to know who police think is responsible for their murders?

well maybe he is stereo typing serial killers ...like every serial killer is a great neighbor or a family man or a trusted coworker...never just the obvious slag...because there is a cunning component for SK's...they are cunning and can get away with kill after kill...

mOO

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped for brevity by me.

Just popping by after a long absence to catch up. I was thinking about JBC as a possible suspect in this matter after reading your post, and it suddenly occurred to me that he might not be a likely suspect at all, simply because someone officially involved in the investigation of the case (I forget who, might have been an officer or a prosecutor) has said we will be surprised when we find out.

What the hell is surprising about JBC? Nothing. He's nothing more than a common criminal and lowlife.
When they said they thought we'd be surprised, I wondered what made them think we would be? Surely no one would be shocked that a guy like JBC might also be a killer?

So this begs the question then, what is it they think the general public would be surprised to learn? Is is the precision with which the killer attacked and killed the girls? Is is the state of the crime scene? Perhaps the staging of the scene before the girls arrived there? Is the way the kids were left shocking? Would we be shocked to know who police think is responsible for their murders?

My opinion: it was said by TL very shortly after the murders, when, and it is strictly my opinion, he thought he knew who the murderer could be. Since that time, either LE realized they were wrong, or...they messed up big... but sadly, I believe they were simply wrong, and today, they have no clue who did it.

I think he is not JBC; JBC became the Internet's poi out of desperation. Because he committed a violent crime against a child, and because he is odd, and because he is more or less local.

Just my feeling - the Delphi killer is a combination of a typical sexual deviant, such as Ted Bundy, and a person with God's complex, such as the Bitsa park maniac, who enjoyed control over the person's fate and destiny (someone not quite unlike Amon Goeth). He probably will be diagnosed with some garden-variety mental illness, but it is not the whole story. JBC comes across as sexually frustrated, primitive guy who wants to find a woman, so he puts himself out there. Not the way I perceive the Delphi killer is, but I might be wrong.

One question. DC believes that the murderer is "hiding in plain sight". What would be "plain sight" today for a man of 18-40, with the mean of 31? Probably, Discord server, Instagram, Snapchat, Tiktok.

Maybe not even FB, it might be, sorry, for older people.

Are we looking for him in the right place? What is "plain sight" for a cross between Gen X and Gen Z person?

 

[HistoryNut]

My opinion: it was said by TL very shortly after the murders, when, and it is strictly my opinion, he thought he knew who the murderer could be. Since that time, either LE realized they were wrong, or...they messed up big... but sadly, I believe they were simply wrong, and today, they have no clue who did it.

I think he is not JBC; JBC became the Internet's poi out of desperation. Because he committed a violent crime against a child, and because he is odd, and because he is more or less local.

Just my feeling - the Delphi killer is a combination of a typical sexual deviant, such as Ted Bundy, and a person with God's complex, such as the Bitsa park maniac, who enjoyed control over the person's fate and destiny (someone not quite unlike Amon Goeth). He probably will be diagnosed with some garden-variety mental illness, but it is not the whole story. JBC comes across as sexually frustrated, primitive guy who wants to find a woman, so he puts himself out there. Not the way I perceive the Delphi killer is, but I might be wrong.

One question. DC believes that the murderer is "hiding in plain sight". What would be "plain sight" today for a man of 18-40, with the mean of 31? Probably, Discord server, Instagram, Snapchat, Tiktok.

Maybe not even FB, it might be, sorry, for older people.

Are we looking for him in the right place? What is "plain sight" for a cross between Gen X and Gen Z person?

I also now believe that LE doesn’t know who the killer is. If they thought it was JBC, they would have charged him by now, IMO. I’m beginning to think that this hideous crime will never be solved.

 

[minazoe]

do you think they would charge him before his sentencing?

 

[JnRyan]

By @photographer4… “The only one benefiting from their refusal to release more details or other information is the killer himself.”

Perfectly said!
I wish someone would put that on billboards across Indiana!

I couldn't have said it any better....

 

[JnRyan]

My opinion: it was said by TL very shortly after the murders, when, and it is strictly my opinion, he thought he knew who the murderer could be. Since that time, either LE realized they were wrong, or...they messed up big... but sadly, I believe they were simply wrong, and today, they have no clue who did it.

I think he is not JBC; JBC became the Internet's poi out of desperation. Because he committed a violent crime against a child, and because he is odd, and because he is more or less local.

Just my feeling - the Delphi killer is a combination of a typical sexual deviant, such as Ted Bundy, and a person with God's complex, such as the Bitsa park maniac, who enjoyed control over the person's fate and destiny (someone not quite unlike Amon Goeth). He probably will be diagnosed with some garden-variety mental illness, but it is not the whole story. JBC comes across as sexually frustrated, primitive guy who wants to find a woman, so he puts himself out there. Not the way I perceive the Delphi killer is, but I might be wrong.

One question. DC believes that the murderer is "hiding in plain sight". What would be "plain sight" today for a man of 18-40, with the mean of 31? Probably, Discord server, Instagram, Snapchat, Tiktok.

Maybe not even FB, it might be, sorry, for older people.

Are we looking for him in the right place? What is "plain sight" for a cross between Gen X and Gen Z person?

Bolded for emphasis. Yes, I want JBC in prison and for a very long time. But the connection to Delphi? I have serious doubts. IF they connect him to the Delphi murders I will be relieved. But I feel that is overly optimistic.

 

[JemZy9]

I think it is JBC and they are building a case still and looking into other possible connected cases. It has happened in the past that they let a case run first with a living victim so they can get justice. Also they cannot bias the trial (I know he has since admitted guilt but at the start this was the case) by him being associated with this case, JBC has already tried changing venue etc. I think there are just too many coincidences with JBC. I think he maybe was stalking AW. They will likely charge him after after the sentencing for this case. Everything adds up eg media blackout, moving venues etc.

 

[minazoe]

I think it is JBC and they are building a case still and looking into other possible connected cases. It has happened in the past that they let a case run first with a living victim so they can get justice. Also they cannot bias the trial (I know he has since admitted guilt but at the start this was the case) by him being associated with this case, JBC has already tried changing venue etc. I think there are just too many coincidences with JBC. I think he maybe was stalking AW. They will likely charge him after after the sentencing for this case. Everything adds up eg media blackout, moving venues etc.

this is my feeling too..JBC is my man until they tell me he isn't. mOO

 

[MistyWaters]

If charges were about to be laid against JBC, I doubt this new space would be necessary. It seems like LE is preparing for the long haul. The jurisdiction of Carroll County Sheriff’s Office is focused on crimes committed within their county so they’re not chasing a serial killer who committed murders elsewhere.

“The $7,200-per-year lease will give investigators a similar space to what they're using now. The lease is set to last two years……

The center will be used for investigators to conduct interviews, follow up on leads and hold meetings with other agencies. Leazenby said the space will allow investigators to better focus on the murders….”
Delphi murders investigation moving to new center | wthr.com

 

[photographer4]

Odd thought, but... we've been told there was a lot of evidence left at the scene, though it may not be what we expect. Then there was the presser wherein LE stated they believe the killer is hiding in plain sight. I wondered last night if anyone has ever considered that this might be a direct message to the killer and not a statement about his position within society at all?

Is it possible that they found music at the scene? I mean, there are actual songs with the title: Hiding In Plain Sight which predate the murders. For instance: Man Must Die – Hiding in Plain Sight Lyrics | Genius Lyrics

Perhaps that particular song, or any other song with that title or those lyrics? Just a shot in the dark and something to consider that I don't think has previously been mentioned as a possibility.

 

[photographer4]

If charges were about to laid against JBC, I doubt this new space would be necessary. It seems like LE is preparing for the long haul. The jurisdiction of Carroll County Sheriff’s Office is only within their county so they’re not chasing a serial killer.

“The $7,200-per-year lease will give investigators a similar space to what they're using now. The lease is set to last two years……

The center will be used for investigators to conduct interviews, follow up on leads and hold meetings with other agencies. Leazenby said the space will allow investigators to better focus on the murders….”
Delphi murders investigation moving to new center | wthr.com

I think that is the clearest indication that we have that it really isn't JCB that they're interested in.

 

[MistyWaters]

Odd thought, but... we've been told there was a lot of evidence left at the scene, though it may not be what we expect. Then there was the presser wherein LE stated they believe the killer is hiding in plain sight. I wondered last night if anyone has ever considered that this might be a direct message to the killer and not a statement about his position within society at all?

Is it possible that they found music at the scene? I mean, there are actual songs with the title: Hiding In Plain Sight which predate the murders. For instance: Man Must Die – Hiding in Plain Sight Lyrics | Genius Lyrics

Perhaps that particular song, or any other song with that title or those lyrics? Just a shot in the dark and something to consider that I don't think has previously been mentioned as a possibility.

The killer would know anything left at the crime scene is also obvious to investigators, so I can’t think of one good reason for LE to talk code or send messages to tell the killer what he knows that they already are aware of.

“Hiding in plain sight” is a very common reference, no doubt the reason it appears in song lyrics as well.

I think he was just trying to encourage potential tipsters to broaden their thoughts because the killer could be a person who acts very “normal”, not someone who appears suspicious nor in hiding at all.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If charges were about to be laid against JBC, I doubt this new space would be necessary. It seems like LE is preparing for the long haul. The jurisdiction of Carroll County Sheriff’s Office is focused on crimes committed within their county so they’re not chasing a serial killer who committed murders elsewhere.

“The $7,200-per-year lease will give investigators a similar space to what they're using now. The lease is set to last two years……

The center will be used for investigators to conduct interviews, follow up on leads and hold meetings with other agencies. Leazenby said the space will allow investigators to better focus on the murders….”
Delphi murders investigation moving to new center | wthr.com

No matter what one might believe about JBC, leasing this building is a strange thing in my opinion.
A small county in a rural area decides to lease a building devoted to investigating a five year old high profile crime that LE has refused to talk about with the public the entire time.
Right.
I think they are only using Abby’s and Libby’s murders to justify getting a big building. Very doubtful this aids the investigation, and frankly I don’t think they expect it to.
I think it’s a bit despicable.

 

[minazoe]

well..ugh not to be on repeat all the time..but..some reasons for the move may be..

there may be several cases coming together.
the cases interfere with day to day business at the station house
adequate parking for various entities
can block out the media from the driveway and control access in general
is on private property
all comings and goings can be identified much more easily...for instance nosy folks or possible suspects can
be separated from those with actual police business..so the whole environment is way more controllable.

if you look at the layout from above you can see the access points are two driveways and if you are not turning into those driveways you are in the road...so...

this is all very interesting isn't it?

 

[JnRyan]

OK, I am an auditor by profession and as such I apply reasonable skepticism to what I come across. And we go by the GAO Yellow Book standards for auditing which states there are three forms of evidence used in compiling an audit report. The least reliable of the three is testimonial evidence - so much so that is not to be used unless backed up by one of the other two.
Of course, this applies to audits and not criminal investigations. But nonetheless, like the scorpion in the tale of the frog and the scorpion, I can't help myself because it is in my nature.
So with that qualifying (or disqualifying, depending on your viewpoint) background out of the way, I look at the statement by former prosecutor, Ives, where he says they have a 'lot' of 'evidence'. The first thing that strikes me is this is a prosecutor in a jurisdiction that has very few murders. Even by his own admission later on he stated that when they did have a murder they were able to quickly link it to someone known to the victim. So this crime is unlike anything Delphi and county has experienced in probably decades. So is this a 'lot' compared to those few crimes that were solved?
Then there is the 'evidence' itself. The investigators were very coy about the DNA for quite some time and finally at the 4 year mark the sheriff admits they have DNA evidence from the scene but they don't know if they have the killer's DNA. So how much of the physical evidence is directly related to the killer or even relevant? Of course, not all evidence is physical. Witness statements are evidence. Statements from those on the trail that day and possibly nearby is evidence. And we know how some of that turned out with the shift to a second sketch being released. With statements from the family, those on the trail that day, maybe some of the searchers, nearby residences, tipsters, etc., there is probably a 'lot' there. In defense of LE, it is probably all relevant until they get an arrest and know for sure which links to the crime and which doesn't. And then there is the April 2019 PC where LE stated they were shifting their focus or going in a new direction. Was there some of this 'lot of' evidence - physical or testimonial - found to be not relevant or misleading?
Now there I said it. Most everyone doesn't look at it like this and this just my take on it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

well..ugh not to be on repeat all the time..but..some reasons for the move may be..

there may be several cases coming together.
the cases interfere with day to day business at the station house
adequate parking for various entities
can block out the media from the driveway and control access in general
is on private property
all comings and goings can be identified much more easily...for instance nosy folks or possible suspects can
be separated from those with actual police business..so the whole environment is way more controllable.

if you look at the layout from above you can see the access points are two driveways and if you are not turning into those driveways you are in the road...so...

this is all very interesting isn't it?

I see your point.
I do believe JBC is the killer.
I’m just not a fan of the building.

 

[AC4RD]

... ... the sheriff admits they have DNA evidence from the scene but they don't know if they have the killer's DNA. So how much of the physical evidence is directly related to the killer or even relevant? Of course, not all evidence is physical. Witness statements are evidence. Statements from those on the trail that day and possibly nearby is evidence. And we know how some of that turned out with the shift to a second sketch being released. With statements from the family, those on the trail that day, maybe some of the searchers, nearby residences, tipsters, etc., there is probably a 'lot' there. In defense of LE, it is probably all relevant until they get an arrest and know for sure which links to the crime and which doesn't. And then there is the April 2019 PC where LE stated they were shifting their focus or going in a new direction. Was there some of this 'lot of' evidence - physical or testimonial - found to be not relevant or misleading?
... .

I wish I could hit "like" twice for this one. There are several good points in your post, there, but I'm particularly struck by the idea that LE may have large amounts of data that, until more is known, may or not be relevant to the investigation. The sentence I've bolded sounds absolutely plausible IMO and well worth remembering. Gold Star on your essay!