IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[Ember123]

You bring up good points, and I will take on your challenge.

I have never believed the girls crossed the creek.

It's my belief the perp planned these murders way in advance. In fact, I think he planned everything down to the very last detail, including the route to where their bodies were found.

He was not about to leave something that critically important to the elements of running water. The girls could have slipped on wet rocks, or even managed to get away from him downstream. They could have been seen by casual observers from the bridge or other vantage points.

He wasn't going to risk that!

More importantly, HE could have slipped on wet rocks, or dropped any of his weapons, concealed beneath his jacket. He had waited too long for this day. He was not about to risk his plans to the unpredictable elements of the water.

I agree with DeDee. I don't think Sgt. Holeman was saying they DID cross the creek. On the contrary, I think he was actually pointing out all the obstacles as to why they didn't.

I'm a person who often reads between the lines. For whatever reason, I don't think he minded if this was not spelled out clearly. That's my impression anyway.

I realize people interpret his words differently, and they may be correct.

You asked how I think he got them to the other side? The exact way you think did not happen - by automobile.

I believe he had his car parked on that private road located off the south end of the bridge. Though he knew it posed a slight chance of being seen, I believe he had checked out the nearby homes ahead of time, and saw no imminent risk. He knew his car wouldn't be there very long. This crime would be quick.

It was carried out with military precision. I believe the 'down the hill,' led straight to his car where he quickly hustled the girls into the trunk. Just mere minutes after leaving the bridge.

Imo, that's why no one saw or heard them after he grabbed them.

I think he did drive them around to the other side, hence the 'phone pinging around town' statement made by Libby's father. I know various towers can have the same phone pinging while the phone is not moving, but I don't believe that's what happened here. I think the phone was actually in transit.

I don't have any article or media source to back this up. It's my opinion only, but it fits my theory of how carefully planned this crime was. The perp made sure he covered all his bases ahead of time.

So the girls crossing the water makes absolutely no sense to me, from the perp's point of view.

Again, I may be completely wrong. There may actually be 'nothing' to even be read between the lines. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, for sure.

You asked though for the 'why and how' theory from anyone who believed differently, so this is my opinion. Based solely upon my gut feeling only.

Want to add too, I'm not at all convinced it's just one perp either. I thought it was for a long time, but now I'm not so sure...

I Def recall RL muttering something about seeing someone getting into a car and not thinking much of it at the time... in an early interview... Anyone know how to find link? Something like RL saying he just thought some one was getting into a car and didn't think it unusual then, remembered it in retrospect... Anyone else remember this, way back???

 

[Jethro4WS]

We all have hindsight in our favor so, sure... if we got trapped (cut off from escape essentially) at the south end of that bridge; we'd move as fast and as best we could; the very minute we saw that guy coming up behind us on a bridge where simple walking is a treacherous ordeal. Once off the bridge, we'd run and trip and get snagged up on branches and fall down slopes as fast as we could with what poor escape options we had. We'd hope someone was home at one of the 2 farms down that way or run straight through the brush to nowhere; really. We've seen the aerial shots by now and WE know what our options would be... and we know how little of a chance we'd have but we would try anyway. To be really smart, we'd split up from our friend so the man would probably be forced to pick one of us to chase instead of both.... and we'd keep up screaming at the top of our lungs even though it would slow up down a bit... knowing full well someone has to cross that entire bridge before they can reach us with any kind of help. AW and LG did not know that man was going to kill them. They were uncomfortable and nervous but had no idea that the very minute they saw him was the time to run or it would be too late already. AW and LG had no way of knowing what we know now. And it's awful to say but that man really had them trapped. He KNOWS that area better than they do or his mind is especially devious in it's planning, imo. Up on that bridge with him behind them, closing in and the dismal options that they had? It was like; checkmate. I can't wait for him to be arrested and thrown in a cell.

Well, one thing to keep in mind is the girls were not trapped by any natural or physical barriers (like a fence) at the south end of the bridge. I posted the media photos a few days ago that show this. Any fencing seen, as in the JM video, just past the south end of the bridge was put up later. There is one house just 400 feet from the end of the bridge south of the bridge. There is another house 600 feet to the east of that end of the bridge.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not a given that BG had more knowledge of this area than the girls. Abby''s house is only 4000 feet down the road that runs under the bridge at that end. There are at least 3 houses that you would encounter before you get to her house. The girls knew exactly where they were. If they were to run, which it seems likely they did not, why would they choose to go across the creek and have to climb the steep hills to the north of the creek to try to get to houses over there? Why would that make more sense than trying for home or either of the two closest houses?

There is much evidence to suggest the girls did not run. We know BG did not have to chase them because the voice in the audio isn't huffing and puffing saying "down the hill". We don't know why they didn't run and likely never will unless it is on the audio recording. But there was nothing preventing them from doing so, considering how far away BG was from the girls when captured on the video, unless there was another person near where the girls were.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

And the newbie bows out gracefully. 

No need to back out from the conversation.I've had more posts deleted probably than I have posted.Everyone makes mistakes bud.

 

[Jo in Calif]

I Def recall RL muttering something about seeing someone getting into a car and not thinking much of it at the time... in an early interview... Anyone know how to find link? Something like RL saying he just thought some one was getting into a car and didn't think it unusual then, remembered it in retrospect... Anyone else remember this, way back???

I think he was saying that the girls just got in a car with someone they knew and that's why they they were missing at the time, not that the killer put them in a car and transported them away.

"When they said the two girls were missing I never thought the worst," said Logan "I just figured well they got into the car and got with someone else like teenagers do."
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

 

[margarita25]

Alright, 6 months later I think we have figured out where he works:

Occupations A-Z
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?78894-Occupations-A-Z

(I agree with everything except "Quiltmaker")

 

[kkdj]

Here's a pic of the truck on the flat bed. Best I could do in a hurry.

Just a thought, but in my area (west) the majorityof "work" trucks are white. Could it be that a white truck was seen in the area on the murder date?

 

[JazzTune]

I can't imagine BG kidnapping two girls, driving away and then disposing the girls close to the same area from where he kidnapped them. I would think that after kidnapping them with the intention to hurt and murder them, he would not leave only to dispose of them near the area. Just my two cents worth.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk

Thanks for your post. I've wondered the same thing, as have others who have read my theory.

I answered the question with my thoughts about it, earlier during the night.

In order that I don't repeat myself again, I hope you won't mind if I refer you to the numbers of my posts, # 270, and # 273, with my specific replies to this.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to claim that I know any more than anyone else. These are just my theories and ideas. I could be completely wrong on every single detail. That's okay too.

I'm always open to hearing other opinions as well. This is such a great place for exchanging opinions with many intelligent people.

What a celebration it will be the day LE puts the perp behind bars!

 

[Shiressleuth]

The boat theory doesn't wash with me.

The property is upstream from the CS. A guy on a boat would have stuck out as it went through town.

The CS is virtually on the opposite creek bank to the private road and the sandbar on the property based on the case map in page 1 of the thread. So how did they get across the creek?

 

[JnRyan]

Large portions of Deer Creek are very shallow and the current isn't that strong. There are definitely deeper holes (as was shown in the news clips of searchers) as well. IMO, BG had control over them from the beginning, shortly after the video still we were shown was taken. He led them "down the hill". I'm sure he was in close contact as he forced them to their final resting place. If they did cross the creek, I'm sure it was a shallow area. If BG was wearing boots, his feet may not have gotten wet at all. He wouldn't have wanted to walk in deep cold water and I don't think he allowed the girls to get away from him.

I've crossed many shallow creeks in the middle of winter while I'm out hunting. I normally try to step over the water, but sometimes I don't quite make it. Stepping in shallow freezing water is only chilly for a very short while. Sometimes it temporarily feels like your feet are breaking depending on just how cold and how long the exposure lasts. But as soon as you start taking steps out of the water and the extra water is forced out, your feet start warming up instantly. Wet pants are a huge bummer and probably more uncomfortable than wet feet. With everything that was going on, the combination of fear and adrenaline, they probably wouldn't have even noticed the cold.

I thought about my hunting experiences as well. A similar one was when I was in my late teens and I was duck hunting - alone (yes, that by itself wasn't smart considering what I would do). It Jan-Feb and temps were in the low 40's like that day in Delphi except it was cloudy and the sun was starting to set. I shot my last duck of the day and it fell near the far bank of the creek. It also got lodged in loose brush and limbs in the creek. I was determined not to lose it, so I put my gun on the bank with my hunting coat and waded out to the other bank. I went till the water was over my waist and had to use a limb to pry the duck out. I was in the water 2-3 minutes. When I got out I had over a mile to go and I didn't want to run in dark (I was afraid to step wrong or trip on a root or a hole be injured) so I just walked fast. I made it to my car and turned on the heater, but I probably could have made it another mile or two.

I was just after a duck that in hindsight I should have just left. It was dumb. But if someone was chasing me that day in Delphi, I know I could have crossed that creek and if the guy didn't catch me I could have made it to the parking lot over a mile away. The adrenaline would have made it all that more likely I would make it. Fear is a powerful motivator.

 

[Laughing]

Alright, 6 months later I think we have figured out where he works:

Occupations A-Z
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?78894-Occupations-A-Z


(I agree with everything except "Quiltmaker")

:laughing:

thanks, Margarita25, I think we needed this....

 

[Deleted member 172065]

The FBI told the public what to look out for. They should have included wet shoes and wet pants.

I heard the theory of a car being used to go around the creek. I see the point that they would stay dry, but I have absolutely no clue.


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[Deleted member 172065]

You bring up good points, and I will take on your challenge.

I have never believed the girls crossed the creek.

It's my belief the perp planned these murders way in advance. In fact, I think he planned everything down to the very last detail, including the route to where their bodies were found.

He was not about to leave something that critically important to the elements of running water. The girls could have slipped on wet rocks, or even managed to get away from him downstream. They could have been seen by casual observers from the bridge or other vantage points.

He wasn't going to risk that!

More importantly, HE could have slipped on wet rocks, or dropped any of his weapons, concealed beneath his jacket. He had waited too long for this day. He was not about to risk his plans to the unpredictable elements of the water.

I agree with DeDee. I don't think Sgt. Holeman was saying they DID cross the creek. On the contrary, I think he was actually pointing out all the obstacles as to why they didn't.

I'm a person who often reads between the lines. For whatever reason, I don't think he minded if this was not spelled out clearly. That's my impression anyway.

I realize people interpret his words differently, and they may be correct.

You asked how I think he got them to the other side? The exact way you think did not happen - by automobile.

I believe he had his car parked on that private road located off the south end of the bridge. Though he knew it posed a slight chance of being seen, I believe he had checked out the nearby homes ahead of time, and saw no imminent risk. He knew his car wouldn't be there very long. This crime would be quick.

It was carried out with military precision. I believe the 'down the hill,' led straight to his car where he quickly hustled the girls into the trunk. Just mere minutes after leaving the bridge.

Imo, that's why no one saw or heard them after he grabbed them.

I think he did drive them around to the other side, hence the 'phone pinging around town' statement made by Libby's father. I know various towers can have the same phone pinging while the phone is not moving, but I don't believe that's what happened here. I think the phone was actually in transit.

I don't have any article or media source to back this up. It's my opinion only, but it fits my theory of how carefully planned this crime was. The perp made sure he covered all his bases ahead of time.

So the girls crossing the water makes absolutely no sense to me, from the perp's point of view.

Again, I may be completely wrong. There may actually be 'nothing' to even be read between the lines. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, for sure.

You asked though for the 'why and how' theory from anyone who believed differently, so this is my opinion. Based solely upon my gut feeling only.

Want to add too, I'm not at all convinced it's just one perp either. I thought it was for a long time, but now I'm not so sure...

Just saw this AFTER I posted my comment about a car. This explains a possible scenario of how they got across the bridge dry.


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[Falling Down]

The CS is virtually on the opposite creek bank to the private road and the sandbar on the property based on the case map in page 1 of the thread. So how did they get across the creek?

One of Julie Melvin's YouTube videos shows the shallow part of the creek. Granted, it was weeks later, but the video clearly shows where some stones are submerged, and how far a chunk of land sticks out into the creek, from the opposite bank from the CS. It ws a short walk across the creek, really, and I doubt the water was more than knee deep, on the 13th right at that spot.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

Just a thought, but in my area (west) the majorityof "work" trucks are white. Could it be that a white truck was seen in the area on the murder date?

I thought it was RL's. If he drove when he wasn't supposed to, maybe they towed it. Around here they put a club on it.


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[SouthernMom]

My opinion only, is that this perp was so successful because he had done a similar crime. He had a weapon, was bigger, and had control of the girls instantly.
I still think this is linked to the Iowa girls. I think the perp is a lot like Israel Keyes or Joseph Duncan, III.
He planned meticulously and waited for the right opportunity. These guys are like predators in the wild. They will wait for the right opportunity because it will eventually come along. I'm praying he makes another mistake and gets caught.

 

[venutian21]

Well, one thing to keep in mind is the girls were not trapped by any natural or physical barriers (like a fence) at the south end of the bridge. I posted the media photos a few days ago that show this. Any fencing seen, as in the JM video, just past the south end of the bridge was put up later. There is one house just 400 feet from the end of the bridge south of the bridge. There is another house 600 feet to the east of that end of the bridge.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not a given that BG had more knowledge of this area than the girls. Abby''s house is only 4000 feet down the road that runs under the bridge at that end. There are at least 3 houses that you would encounter before you get to her house. The girls knew exactly where they were. If they were to run, which it seems likely they did not, why would they choose to go across the creek and have to climb the steep hills to the north of the creek to try to get to houses over there? Why would that make more sense than trying for home or either of the two closest houses?

There is much evidence to suggest the girls did not run. We know BG did not have to chase them because the voice in the audio isn't huffing and puffing saying "down the hill". We don't know why they didn't run and likely never will unless it is on the audio recording. But there was nothing preventing them from doing so, considering how far away BG was from the girls when captured on the video, unless there was another person near where the girls were.

I'm in the camp the believes they did not try to run. Part of this comes from early interviews with LE when there were some things said in regards to neither one of the girls would have left the other. Eluding to they could have ran but didn't.

I believe he gained control with a gun, the compliance you are willing to give the wielder is startling. People have robbed places with fake weapons, just the sight alone of a gun is a traumatizing experience to have to endure.

I believe the love those 2 had for eachother kept them together, knowing if they split and ran he would have to pick one to definitely go after, possibly. Speculation. I don't know what happened, no one does here.

MOO

 

[eyeofneedle]

Knowing the ages of the girls i think they would have made a run for it. Most kids today know never go to the 2nd. place. Maybe they ran towards the creek and got caught crossing. The big question....... is a gun involved and would he have used it........did they find a gun in the creek. Leaning to crossing creek and the crime happening right there. Hope I'm not off base and this hasn't been discussed before

 

[venutian21]

Knowing the ages of the girls i think they would have made a run for it. Most kids today know never go to the 2nd. place. Maybe they ran towards the creek and got caught crossing. The big question....... is a gun involved and would he have used it........did they find a gun in the creek. Leaning to crossing creek and the crime happening right there. Hope I'm not off base and this hasn't been discussed before

LE has never disclosed a murder weapon or anything used in the crime. Or said anything as such was recovered. We just speculate based off the 3 suspect images we have on the bridge. And in my brain it makes the most sense on how to gain control of multiple people quickly. Moo.

 

[Yellow Rose]

I thought about my hunting experiences as well. A similar one was when I was in my late teens and I was duck hunting - alone (yes, that by itself wasn't smart considering what I would do). It Jan-Feb and temps were in the low 40's like that day in Delphi except it was cloudy and the sun was starting to set. I shot my last duck of the day and it fell near the far bank of the creek. It also got lodged in loose brush and limbs in the creek. I was determined not to lose it, so I put my gun on the bank with my hunting coat and waded out to the other bank. I went till the water was over my waist and had to use a limb to pry the duck out. I was in the water 2-3 minutes. When I got out I had over a mile to go and I didn't want to run in dark (I was afraid to step wrong or trip on a root or a hole be injured) so I just walked fast. I made it to my car and turned on the heater, but I probably could have made it another mile or two.

I was just after a duck that in hindsight I should have just left. It was dumb. But if someone was chasing me that day in Delphi, I know I could have crossed that creek and if the guy didn't catch me I could have made it to the parking lot over a mile away. The adrenaline would have made it all that more likely I would make it. Fear is a powerful motivator.

And what if a gun was being pointed at you? Could you/Would you still run?

 

[margarita25]

Knowing the ages of the girls i think they would have made a run for it. Most kids today know never go to the 2nd. place. Maybe they ran towards the creek and got caught crossing. The big question....... is a gun involved and would he have used it........did they find a gun in the creek. Leaning to crossing creek and the crime happening right there. Hope I'm not off base and this hasn't been discussed before

I also envision it going down something like this, moo.

Imo yes he likely had a gun and wouldn't hesitate to it, although that might not necessarily be the ultimate COD.

Re: things being discussed before, we've been here for 6 months, with thousands of member posts and discussions so of course so many things have been discussed before. BUT that's ok! There's little way around that, and it's great to have everyone weigh in as they see fit and be a part of trying to help catch this monster on the loose. The more the merrier as far as far as I'm concerned and it can be beneficial to revisit previously discussed aspects of the case. Whatever it takes!