IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

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JMO...

I understand your point. However I feel the wording might be LE not wanting to tip their hand.

I find it incredibly hard, almost impossible, to believe that BG left no touch DNA, (or no clothing fibers, no pet hair, no NOTHING) in the process of abducting and murdering two innocent young girls. SA aside. If he so much as touched one of their arms, contact DNA could be present.

Why would they be asking people they're interviewing for DNA swabs if there is nothing to compare it to? Or would they be trying to make BG think they have DNA when they really don't?

JMO.

Libby's grandfather stated she put up a fight. Poor Libby, makes me so sad... but, you know, considering she got a video and may have recorded the entire nightmare ordeal... just maybe she put up a fight for 2 reasons. To try for all she was worth to survive and, if she failed, to try to get as much of his DNA onto herself as she could. I never met her but I wouldn't be too quick to put it past her.
 
LE said know what your kids are up to....I read more into that statement (not that they did anything wrong) but teenagers can be tricky.
 
Was so busy all day, just catching up here, but today i have such a feeling and have come to possibly share the opinion of the police that these girls were somehow lured to this spot by this killer, perhaps he posed as a cute boy in a chatroom. Because he was completely prepared and I bet this is obvious in the crime scene, that he say had enough zip ties for two girls , or the items they were strangled with were items brought there by the killer. there could have been a second man waiting down the hill

but i think he was alone because it is obvious he has things concealed in his clothing.

I feel very very strongly that he wasn't just hanging out waiting for a girl to show up, but that he arrived there knowing there would be two little girls waiting at the end of that bridge. Either lured or he had been stallking them for some amount of time and knew exactly when they would be at that park.

leaving the phones was brazen, he's not at all frightened, but he loves it if you are. So this is that psychopath the one in the creepiest stories, the one who proudly displays his work and dares to be caught.

I think he quickly rendered them silent , I think it was sexually and sadistically motivated . And I think I found a secluded spot. he may have dragged the bodies back over where they were found in order that they could be found. But not out of helping them to be found out of guilt but to control the crime scene , destroy evidence and pose his victims. I also think he hid in the woods to observe the search.

He knew they were going to be there. He had to. it's evident in the crime scene and the cops know it.

Hmm, good points. This would be supported by the statement in one of the earlier pressers that it was unlikely that BG just randomly ran into them there. Would also fit with when LE said (paraphrasing) "know what your kids are up to." I used to be firmly in the random incident camp but the those two statements by the police changed my mind. Maybe BG posed online as a guy, or maybe something else-- we have no idea about Libby and Abby's personal lives. Maybe they were meeting someone there to get pot (which I have no problem with and mean it as NO slander on their character!). We just don't know.
 
Has this statement by ISP Sgt. Riley been clarified? We know their parents were aware where they were going, what they planned to do, how they were getting there and a plan for being picked up. What was he hinting at?

Sgt. Kim Riley said parents should keep a close eye on their children. "I think people need to be cautious and careful," Riley said. "Parents should make sure they know where their children are and what their children are doing, and if nothing else, know what's going on in their lives. That's the most important thing I can say at this point in time."

http://fox59.com/2017/02/15/police-...-in-case-of-missing-carroll-county-teenagers/

The part of being cautious and careful,as well as knowing where the children are and what they are doing is a pretty clear straight up warning considering the circumstances.

However, I find the "and if nothing else, know what's going on in their lives." rather interesting. This is much deeper than knowing where a child is at a certain time and what they are doing. A child can be at home at the computer/ at the phone,and the parents think their kid is safe and sound not knowing, who they are talking to via SM/ TM/ EM/ SC etc.or what they are posting on their SM platforms.

I found a similar choice of words in this article from ABC News/ 03-06-17 by ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Steve Gomez:

BBM

'Gomez said that "one of the most important parts of this investigation is to establish a very detailed timeline of what was occurring in the victims' lives leading up to the point that they were dropped off and as much information about their activities that they can determine as possible."

That includes looking at their phones, checking any texting or social media activity that occurred, he said, "just to understand what was going on in their lives." '

End of quote

http://abcnews.go.com/US/investigat...ious-murder-enters-4th-week/story?id=45937133

It is very possible,that Sgt. Kim Riley may have had something similar in mind, when sending out that warning to parents about knowing, what was going on in their children's lives.
Perhaps the girls did announce that Monday, where they were heading, even if it was short notice - or not.There are so many possibilities of what they may have communicated via the internet,all of which would lead to the same result i.e. knowing, where the girls would be at a certain time.

All IMO

-Nin
 
I feel a little odd about posting this. I'm sorry for the length but I hope a good jumping off point for sleuthing. I asked a few days ago whether LE had clearly stated that this case was, to the best of their knowledge, unconnected to others. I decided to look up for myself what LE had said in official statements about it and (please correct me if there's something out there that contradicts this), I found that they skirted that question when it was posed. LE said they were "unaware" of any cases which appeared to be connected but then they qualified that by saying there were instances of individuals who had been found to have violated probation, etc, but nothing associated with these homicides. So it seems to me that they didn't directly address the question of whether there are other homicides out there that they believe are connected. Not that I think they could or should reveal their hand on that topic at this stage. So with that said, I went looking for other unsolved homicides and I found a possible one to discuss. There is a Parabon snapshot from this other case to compare with our newest composite sketch of BG, which I will attach to this post.

April Tinsley was an 8 year old girl who was abducted and murdered in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1988. There is a thread here on Websleuths devoted to her case and it has all the background info. In summary, she was abducted around 4 pm from a street in her neighborhood. Witnesses said they might have seen her being forced into a pickup truck. Three days later, her body was found in a ditch 20 miles northeast of Fort Wayne. She had been raped and suffocated. The case went cold but 2 years later the killer started to communicate with police. He wrote a message on a barn door (evidently returning to the scene over multiple days to re-write the message until it was dark enough to be seen). There were still no breaks in the case but in 2004 he started to communicate again. This time he left messages on little girls' bikes and in mailboxes around the Fort Wayne area. I won't go too far into the messages and the contents thereof but he left indisputable DNA evidence in them that he was the same person who raped April Tinsley. He also left Polaroid pictures of the lower half of his body against a distinctive bedspread. Despite all these clues, he has never been found and his DNA has never been matched to any database.

At a glance this case has several differences from the Delphi murders - younger victim, transported a distance from the abduction point. But Fort Wayne is only 95 miles away from Delphi, railroad tracks were in close proximity to both the crime scene and the place where the killer left taunting notes, and several things about the Parabon snapshot, generated in 2016, made me wonder.

According to Parabon, April Tinsley's killer had fair or very fair skin, hazel or green eyes (not blue), brown or black hair (note: not reddish brown as the Delphi sketch tells us, but remember he also sent Polaroids and the man in those is said to have "reddish tint" to his leg hair). His age estimate as of 2015 was 45-55 years old, though LE in that case urged people to consider someone a few years older or younger. I felt that the age-progressed Parabon snapshot may have failed to capture things like a goatee/facial hair, perhaps a past broken nose or the age effects of chronic alcohol use or sun damage to skin, but that there could be similarities to BG.

The time between a murder in 1988 and one in 2017 seems insurmountably long to me to consider this the work of the same perpetrator. However, I read in the FBI's official profile of April Tinsley's murderer that, contrary to the average person's belief that once an offender kidnaps, rapes and kills, he will always kidnap, rape and kill, in reality a sex offender can engage in a lot of different behaviors that satisfy their urges. These include peeping, indecent exposure, etc and often these go unreported by the victims so it flies under the radar of police. Gaps in activity can be explained by institutionalization, relocation, or, terrible to think about, ongoing access to a victim in their "normal" life.

What about the fact that a pedophile preferred an 8 year old victim in the first instance - why would he go after a 13 and 14 year old in a subsequent murder? I discovered, again in the FBI profile of April Tinsley's killer, that not all child sex offenders are the same and some will victimize adults or older children/teens situationally. I think - MOO here - that it has probably become relatively more difficult to abduct young children as parents are less likely to let them play outside unsupervised in the way they did in the 80s. However, pre-teens like Abby and Libby have more freedom to be alone or unsupervised in public. Therefore, perhaps a killer will evolve in his methods as time goes on and/or perhaps his fantasies change.

If LE in the Delphi case have the perpetrator's DNA, then obviously this is a dead-end. If they are still working on separating out all the DNA at the scene, or if the killer managed somehow to commit a sexual assault without leaving DNA (and assault can happen in more ways than rape, or attempts can be made to destroy evidence, so I guess it's theoretically possible), then...could the killer of April Tinsley and Libby and Abby be one and the same?
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Well here is another idea...Angie Housman and this sketch....Sketch.jpg
 
OK. But what does connect drugs to this crime? Have you done any research on drug crimes in that area? What research have you done, what facts have you found, to support this assertion?

LE also has not stated that grilled cheese sandwiches have nothing to do with this crime. They've never said that the *advertiser censored* industry has nothing to do with this crime. So from this, should I now believe that grilled cheese and *advertiser censored* are involved?

Again, LE can't spend all day debunking theories. There's a whole lot they haven't said, but there is also a lot they have said. And I have to assume that what they have said, is what they feel is important to solving this case. So why not focus on the facts they have provided us with? Clearly, they know a whole lot more about what happened, than we do.

These silly analogies and all of the explanations of elementary concepts that a first grader would understand are really beginning to throw the intelligent discussion we usually have here off. Most intelligent adults (which I believe websleuthers are) do not need the alien and grilled cheese comparisons. If that is how you choose to process information, that's your business; however, this discussion is not about grilled cheese sandwiches and aliens.


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Agreed. Plus LE would know if some means of transportation was utilized because dogs tracking their scent would follow along in the direction of the scent. Blood hounds are capable of tracking such tiny amounts of skin/dander. All IMO as always.

It would be interesting to know whether or not LE even thinks a car was involved. I'm sure they checked the road under the bridge, the cemetery, and the trail entrance for fresh tracks. Why am I sure that they checked? Because they are LE, that's why.
 
Me too. We are waiting Shire....
Sorry everyone, this is a heavy thread. A little diversion (and education) is good. :happydance:
Sorry Roses and Imno, it was late and I had to go up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire and tinternet kept bombing anyway. Its been dodgy like that for a fortnight. Also, the thread was making me a bit discombobulated and I needed some shut eye. Did we theorize it right yet?
 
Agreed. Plus LE would know if some means of transportation was utilized because dogs tracking their scent would follow along in the direction of the scent. Blood hounds are capable of tracking such tiny amounts of skin/dander. All IMO as always.
Using dogs would likely be the easiest way to discover the movements of the girls. I know it wasn't something I was looking at so do you know if there any media photos or videos showing LE/investigators using dogs after the girls were found? Do you have any information on how long a scent is viable for tracking? Hours? Days?
 
It has been a long time since I posted but have been lurking and reading. What I have recently found interesting is fellow WS listening and revisiting what LE has said and not said and some information they add or just drop in. For me, the rucksack is one of those things.

We can see BG doesn't appear to have a rucksack with him when the photo was taken.

I am still of the belief the girls saw something they shouldn't have seen or weren't expecting to see.

Like many, I think BG appears to have some sort of hand gun in his pocket, I also think he has a plastic bag stuffed under his coat.I am unsure why people have dismissed the possibility of drugs being involved and "I don't mean the use of drugs by the girls" back to the rucksack.

You only have to look at this local story in Lafayette http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...non-bank-robber-arrested-lafayette/544294001/ Which involves a gun and a rucksack with a meth lab in it.

From the same paper a different crime and a different report, we also have a murder a possible suspect and a mobile phone recording http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...claims-self-defense-charged-murder/565049001/

'Gomez said that "one of the most important parts of this investigation is to establish a very detailed timeline of what was occurring in the victims' lives leading up to the point that they were dropped off and as much information about their activities that they can determine as possible."

That includes looking at their phones, checking any texting or social media activity that occurred, he said, "just to understand what was going on in their lives." '


For all, we know the girls were mini sleuths and trying to catch a bad guy/s out. Children or young people don't have the same sense of danger as adults but do have a sense of adventure. There is just so much we don't know and there is IMHO very good reason for us not knowing. LE won't tell us what we don't need to know.

I am just rambling and thinking out loud. I am hoping this case will be solved soon as does everyone else. There are so many things that could have happened for so many different reasons.

Back to lurking
KR
Reacher
 
It has been a long time since I posted but have been lurking and reading. What I have recently found interesting is fellow WS listening and revisiting what LE has said and not said and some information they add or just drop in. For me, the rucksack is one of those things.

We can see BG doesn't appear to have a rucksack with him when the photo was taken.

I am still of the belief the girls saw something they shouldn't have seen or weren't expecting to see.

Like many, I think BG appears to have some sort of hand gun in his pocket, I also think he has a plastic bag stuffed under his coat.I am unsure why people have dismissed the possibility of drugs being involved and "I don't mean the use of drugs by the girls" back to the rucksack.

You only have to look at this local story in Lafayette http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...non-bank-robber-arrested-lafayette/544294001/ Which involves a gun and a rucksack with a meth lab in it.

From the same paper a different crime and a different report, we also have a murder a possible suspect and a mobile phone recording http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...claims-self-defense-charged-murder/565049001/



For all, we know the girls were mini sleuths and trying to catch a bad guy/s out. Children or young people don't have the same sense of danger as adults but do have a sense of adventure. There is just so much we don't know and there is IMHO very good reason for us not knowing. LE won't tell us what we don't need to know.

I am just rambling and thinking out loud. I am hoping this case will be solved soon as does everyone else. There are so many things that could have happened for so many different reasons.

Back to lurking
KR
Reacher[/I]
From what I understand the girls were interested in crime and forensic science - at least L was and had gone to a class at Purdue IIRC so your penultimate para is not impossible. The drugs angle has been debated so your info and thoughts are valid too.
 
The part of being cautious and careful,as well as knowing where the children are and what they are doing is a pretty clear straight up warning considering the circumstances.

However, I find the "and if nothing else, know what's going on in their lives." rather interesting. This is much deeper than knowing where a child is at a certain time and what they are doing. A child can be at home at the computer/ at the phone,and the parents think their kid is safe and sound not knowing, who they are talking to via SM/ TM/ EM/ SC etc.or what they are posting on their SM platforms.

I found a similar choice of words in this article from ABC News/ 03-06-17 by ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Steve Gomez:

BBM

'Gomez said that "one of the most important parts of this investigation is to establish a very detailed timeline of what was occurring in the victims' lives leading up to the point that they were dropped off and as much information about their activities that they can determine as possible."

That includes looking at their phones, checking any texting or social media activity that occurred, he said, "just to understand what was going on in their lives." '

End of quote

http://abcnews.go.com/US/investigat...ious-murder-enters-4th-week/story?id=45937133

It is very possible,that Sgt. Kim Riley may have had something similar in mind, when sending out that warning to parents about knowing, what was going on in their children's lives.
Perhaps the girls did announce that Monday, where they were heading, even if it was short notice - or not.There are so many possibilities of what they may have communicated via the internet,all of which would lead to the same result i.e. knowing, where the girls would be at a certain time.

All IMO

-Nin

The perp definitely seemed prepared...so this may be the answer as to why he was. I previously didn't think so because I thought he would have been caught by now, but somehow he may have followed them online.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
From what I understand the girls were interested in crime and forensic science - at least L was and had gone to a class at Purdue IIRC

Hiya Shire,

Must say I didn't know that or had missed it in the volume of posts and information here. Which would answer why she was a switched on young lady and used her phone to record and take pictures. If she were of that ilk and had that sort of enquiring mind.

I have now found reference to it here

[FONT=&amp]She was interested in solving crimes or finding clues and her curiosity in the sciences was serious business. She attended several classes at nearby Purdue University to try out different areas to see what interested her most.[/FONT]
http://www.theindychannel.com/longform/delphi-daughters-the-untold-story-of-abby-libby

Thank You for the info.

KR
Reacher
 
April Tinsley was an 8 year old girl who was abducted and murdered in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1988. BBM/SBMFS
attachment.php
I thought about this too.The story was ran on TV a month or so ago.I can't remember if it was a news story or a crime show to be honest or I would post a link.I thought it was extremely odd that the perp surfaced so many years later to taunt police.Thanks for posting and reminding me of this story.
 
These silly analogies and all of the explanations of elementary concepts that a first grader would understand are really beginning to throw the intelligent discussion we usually have here off. Most intelligent adults (which I believe websleuthers are) do not need the alien and grilled cheese comparisons. If that is how you choose to process information, that's your business; however, this discussion is not about grilled cheese sandwiches and aliens.


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I'm no Sherlock,and this is just a theory.... I do not believe pornographic aliens committed this crime.I have not yet figured out if aliens would prefer velveeta over kraft in the making of said grilled cheese samiches.
 
Using dogs would likely be the easiest way to discover the movements of the girls. I know it wasn't something I was looking at so do you know if there any media photos or videos showing LE/investigators using dogs after the girls were found? Do you have any information on how long a scent is viable for tracking? Hours? Days?
I believe it was said that a k-9 may have been used the night before but the bloodhounds had to be brought in from IL maybe.I posted a link for the exact bloodhound unit some time back but either posts are stored for just a certain amount of time or mine were deleted after my forced vacation.I had wondered if the K-9 had been the same one that was used in the Flora fire which caused me to come up with a thought or two on that.I think some labeled me a conspiracy theorist but if you go have a look at all the new info on Flora,maybe I wasn't so nutty after all.
 
I believe it was said that a k-9 may have been used the night before but the bloodhounds had to be brought in from IL maybe.I posted a link for the exact bloodhound unit some time back but either posts are stored for just a certain amount of time or mine were deleted after my forced vacation.I had wondered if the K-9 had been the same one that was used in the Flora fire which caused me to come up with a thought or two on that.I think some labeled me a conspiracy theorist but if you go have a look at all the new info on Flora,maybe I wasn't so nutty after all.

Hey do you have a link to that new info on the Flora fires this is very interesting. Very sad and I do not think mom set her children on fire.
 
My Ramblings are all Hypothetical but not impossible. All of course IMHO

OK so I said I was back into lurk-dom previously, however, more by accident than design Shire has sent me and my ramblings down a different route.

Much has been said about the girls being lured by a predator.

I know this is difficult to do but how about if you turn it all upside down, one of the girls naively lured the person/s not realising how dangerous it would be and in order to solve or prove a potential mystery/crime or write a paper. (Method online using SM, Texts FB etc)

This would mean the girls would know what they were looking for. The bad people would be prepared to eliminate any inquiring minds.

The fact that it happened to be two young girls and not your normal run of the mill down and outs would have enraged anyone that may be high as high as a kite and caught out.

Quite definitely back to lurk dom.

Wacky idea yes I agree! impossible no not at all.

KR
Reacher
 
Hey do you have a link to that new info on the Flora fires this is very interesting. Very sad and I do not think mom set her children on fire.
Hey do you have a link to that new info on the Flora fires this is very interesting. Very sad and I do not think mom set her children on fire.
There are a few new links.I'll look shortly,I'm going into old threads here trying to find my post on the Flora town councilman.Thanks to the new stories on the Flora fire we now know he owned the house that was set on fire.
New and old... http://fox59.com/2017/05/10/mom-of-four-girls-killed-in-flora-fire-breaks-her-silence-to-fox59/
http://fox59.com/2017/07/12/governo...ation-into-whether-flora-case-was-mishandled/
http://fox59.com/2017/06/28/ex-flora-investigator-tells-fox59-he-didnt-make-any-mistakes/
http://fox59.com/2017/06/26/investi...e-quits-amid-questions-raised-about-the-case/
http://fox59.com/2017/06/22/isp-con...ls-had-one-spot-with-accelerants-not-several/
http://fox59.com/2017/06/26/seasone...-fire-says-mistakes-happen-with-inexperience/
There are still more available at the same links.
 
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