IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[Shiressleuth]

And might LE have said Libby was a hero to begin recording because LE has that very recording... where they can hear the girls talking together and may have heard them plan to record BG?
(maybe it wasn't all just typical girl talk)
I think that's possible. Paraphrasing; the sheriff also said in his latest interview that the girls were concerned about this man they thought (or may have thought) was following them. If true, it's possible they were already concerned about BG following them before they ever got on the bridge.
Did the girls go down to the end of the bridge to try and give the creepy guy the slip... "get rid of him" and he'd eventually leave the park. Maybe that was part of his plan... abduction stage I... isolate the girls.
That is why I think, when the girls saw BG approaching them on the bridge they went into high alert and the recording was planned. I don't think his approach was their first sighting of him. Every rational creates another set of question when there is a lack of information!
ALL speculation and JMO :moo:

This can't be the case because no one is visible on the bridge in either direction based on the two Snapchat photos. Where is BG in those photos? If they had seen him before or seen him approaching then why were they still hanging around on the bridge 23 minutes later? Why would they not have called 911 or a relative or got off the bridge and headed towards Abbey's house or to one of her neighbours houses. Why hang around for him to get closer if they were already suspicious of him? Were they waiting for him or for someone else?

 

[Eileen730]

Was the other girl's cell phone recovered?

I dont think she had one.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Was the other girl's cell phone recovered?

Welcome to Ws Kt. Did A have a phone? I don't think she did but maybe I just have not heard it mentioned. Why do you ask?

 

[Ktsleuth]

Why didnt they run?
If they had a bad feeling about this guy why stay there let him get closer and closer.

I am new to this case, but it seems like there is very little information out there about the two girls. What types of posts did they make online...did they make public their plans to go hiking that day in order to take photos? Were they involved in online message boards with strangers? Did they have plans to meet up with anyone there? There is also no confirmation about if they were sexually assaulted. The reporters and LE seem to have avoided all discussions about these topics. I understand that the victims are minors and out of respect for them and their families, these types of discussions are taboo, in poor taste, etc. My point is, the public actually has very little information about this case. I think LE (hopefully) has a lot more and are using it to entrap their suspect/s. I also think it is quite possible there was more than one attacker....like the one on the bridge led them down the hill to someone else. It doesn't seem likely he could have killed both of them on his own, and without a lot of noise. What was the condition of their bodies? Was there a struggle or a fight? Did they try to run? Were they bound? What was the time frame between their two deaths? How were they killed? Does anyone have information about any of this?

 

[Ktsleuth]

Welcome to Ws Kt. Did A have a phone? I don't think she did but maybe I just have not heard it mentioned. Why do you ask?

Thank you for the welcome! I ask b/c there is not a teen in the USA Today that does not have a cell phone. In a post here, someone stated that there is good reception from the area, and teens always have their phones on at all times.So where is it? Was evidence pinged about it's location, were there photos uploaded with possible data stamps to her cloud...just so curious for more info.

 

[rosesfromangels]

No, all of this has been kept confidential to insure a conviction once the Perp is arrested. Releasing these details would compromise the investigation.

 

[gregjrichards]

I dont think she had one.

If I remember correctly Abbey's mum said she used to borrow her camera to take photos as she didn't have a cell phone yet.

 

[her]

sorry, I mean the idea that they saw him with someone prior to being killed, that they saw him with drugs etc does not show in the evidence, because if they saw him prior to the video then they would have known he was the guy they just saw with someone or doing something bad, so the evidence doesn't support this theory, also if libby fought her attacker, then evidence does not support the theory that he didn't touch the girls,

witnesses to crimes are more often killed in movies then in real life, there is no evidence supporting a meth lab or anything like that. Druggies are interested in getting high...now if the girls tried to steal someones drugs, that would be something else.

the fact is he did not have to kill these girls, he killed them because he wanted to, plain and simple.

this a serial killer and all the evidence supports that, including the warnings from police to parents of teenagers.

No worries from me, I post short responses because my iPad usage. Want to get them in before they disappear. I may have missed something.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

My opinion may be in the minority for I do not believe this killer was someone one of the girls met or chatted with on social media. If there was a linkage concerning the girls, and a social media connection the police would have been able to track it down by now. JMO though.

When young children or teens are found murdered away from their home the vast majority of the time the motive for doing so for the murderer is with a sexual intent to rape/assault both or one of them. I still think this is very likely the motive in this case.

I have read numerous articles over the years about sexual predators, and how they are always on the hunt, and will be fully prepared everywhere they go in case they see a vulnerable victim/s out by themselves alone with no one else around. I think these horrific crimes were also opportunistic.

He evidently isn't in any data system including CODIS since he would be IDd by now. This certainly may not be his first violent criminal acts but often sexual predators get away with numerous prior sexual assaults before they finally get caught and murderers also get away with their crimes for many years..even decades, and some are never outed, and the cases will remain unsolved due to not having a DNA match. Many of them will prey on family members or close friends of family members who may be too afraid to tell anyone.

Sexual predators also are often opportunist rapists who can become murderers in order to silence their victim/s. From what I have read extensively they are always cruising areas where young children or teens may be. The thought of finding their first or next prey consumes them. In other words, they are always on the hunt, and may visit places that are remote or rural wooded areas that have trails or parks in them. They are able to blend in.

In the end, I do not believe there will be any link between BG and the beautiful girls he murdered. I wouldn't think he would have left fingerprints since the scene was in the open wooded area where he didn't have to touch furniture, door knobs, windows, etc. He touched the girls, and rarely do they find identifiable fingerprints on the victims themselves or their clothing.

I am more inclined to believe the DNA that has been found may be body fluids of some kind or skin cells found under one or both of the victim's fingernails if either one fought back.

JMO though

 

[Jax49]

Maybe that is what I am recalling. Is there a link to the scanner thread on page 1?

Not seeing one. Try this:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lliams-Scanner-Thread&p=13258504#post13258504

 

[NorahB]

What sort of payback? Revenge, jealousy, debts, silencing witnesses to something? Are you suggesting a professional hit and not a serial killer or sexual motive involved?

I wouldn't go as far as a professional hit, I am thinking simply a powerful warning, drugs related

 

[pepper 34]

This can't be the case because no one is visible on the bridge in either direction based on the two Snapchat photos. Where is BG in those photos? If they had seen him before or seen him approaching then why were they still hanging around on the bridge 23 minutes later? Why would they not have called 911 or a relative or got off the bridge and headed towards Abbey's house or to one of her neighbours houses. Why hang around for him to get closer if they were already suspicious of him? Were they waiting for him or for someone else?

No one was visible because BG was over on the NE side of the bridge letting them take that walk over by themselves. He would have perhaps followed them when they first walked along the path upon entering the park. The girls saw friends and waved at them... other people were around... so, his following them for a short while was more of an annoyance. He made himself scarce. It seemed like he was gone. They walked out onto the bridge to take photos. Later, when BG found everyone had left the NE bridge area, he began to walk out onto the bridge. The girls probably didn't even see him for awhile (the bridge is so long) or didn't see it was the same man. I think they probably thought, "here's that creep again" when they saw him but didn't sense the real danger. He's got his head down... maybe purposely making it look like he's not very good at walking along that bridge (think Bundy and his broken arm.) They might have wanted to record his face because he might say something inappropriate but I doubt they could guess what was about to happen. Creepy but not a 911 situation.
But, perhaps the sheriff was only guessing, too, when he spoke about the man following them. Personally I find the sheriff quite hard to pin down and I remember listening to his interview and thinking.. "Wow... that guy is very, very good at double talk. He talked a lot but he only tossed us about 2 or 3 real peanuts... all the rest is peanut butter!" Of course, I know why he communicated that way and, if it helps solve these murders, I'm happy.
Sooo obviously speculation only and JMO
ETA: The 2 video stills of BG on the bridge. You measure the planks and you can see, he has hardly traveled a bit from one step to the next. In still #1, he's upright and then, in still #2, he's leaning and his legs are in an odd position... I think this is his rendition of "helplessness" ... "This bridge is so tricky! I'm just a clumsy, old, harmless fool." I call BS.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Personally, I don't think the motive has anything to do with drugs or were retaliation murders. I cant remember any case at the moment that a hit man was sent to wipe out two young girls from two different families when they were in a public area. Those involved in drugs who do commit murder often go to the home and will execute everyone inside or they will set fire to their home from the outside burning it down.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised either when and if the suspect is caught that no one was aware of his deeds. Imo, he will most likely be married with children or has been married and holds down a full time job. Imo, his neighbors will come out and say they thought he was a nice man.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

This can't be the case because no one is visible on the bridge in either direction based on the two Snapchat photos. Where is BG in those photos? If they had seen him before or seen him approaching then why were they still hanging around on the bridge 23 minutes later? Why would they not have called 911 or a relative or got off the bridge and headed towards Abbey's house or to one of her neighbours houses. Why hang around for him to get closer if they were already suspicious of him? Were they waiting for him or for someone else?

Hi, Shiressleuth! In response to your post I'm going to put forth this as a possible scenario:

JMO...

He may have been walking the trails that day searching for a victim. They may have passed him on the trails on their way to the bridge, which IIRC, was their intended destination. While passing, he made a comment or given them a look, or just plain made them uncomfortable just by his presence. They thought nothing of it and continued to the bridge.

He stayed out of their line of vision for a while. Maybe he had already stashed a backpack on RL's land, either where he girls were found or in an outbuilding. Maybe he returned to his vehicle on the north side of the bridge (either in a parking area for the trails, near the cemetery or somewhere else nearby) for whatever was under his jacket, assuming he wasn't prowling with the bulk under his coat. He may have already had the bulk, and simply hung back, giving them a false sense of security. He may or may not have overheard them talking about the bridge when he first encountered them.

They kept walking toward the bridge, oblivious of the encounter they just had. Libby took the photo of the bridge. Then she took the one of Abby. Maybe there were more photos and videos before the bridge shot, after the Abby shot, and/or between those two. We know for sure there were at least two photos because they were uploaded to Snapchat.

Libby and Abby were at the south end of the bridge. Hanging out? Private girl talk about typical teenage topics? Rendezvous with a mysterious online "friend"? We don't know, other than they were at the south end of the bridge.

They saw someone coming from the north end of the bridge. As the figure approached, they realized it's the guy they saw on the trail who gave them the something-is-not-right feeling. They retreated to the end of the bridge so he could traverse the span, at which point they were prepared to start crossing the bridge as quickly as they could to get back to the trails and the parking area where they were to meet their ride home. Libby started filming on her selfie camera, making it appear that she was taking a photo of herself, but was really trying to get this guy's picture. Being nervous and afraid, she was trembling so the camera was shaking and the video wasn't clear and steady, and there were images of her and Abby in the frames too, which is why those photos are the only photos LE is releasing.

As he got nearer, Libby acted like she was done with her selfie and pocketed her phone while leaving it on "record". Before Abby and Libby could start across the bridge, BG corralled them by threatening them with a weapon, told them to go "down the hill", possibly grabbing one or the other by the arm or jacket (thereby leaving contact/touch DNA on at least one girl), made them walk to a shallower or narrower part of the creek, crossed with them, and forced them to the secluded area on RL's property where they are found.

He may have had weatherproof/waterproof clothes layered under his blue jacket and "dad jeans". He may have also had a second set of clothes in his stashed backpack.

LE has not released the times or locations where he was seen by witnesses. It may have all been on the trails before he encountered the girls on the bridge.

Was he there specifically to target Abby and/or Libby? I'm not sure about that.

He was there to commit a crime. He planned it. He scouted it. He prowled the trails. Unfortunately he succeeded in his quest.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if he is also responsible for the Iowa cousins in 2012. So many coincidences between these two cases. It also could be totally random or a copycat.

That's my :twocents: anyway.

JMO.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo the only thing the girls saw that resulted in their murders was BG stalking them. This is not gangland Chicago in the 1920's with bad guys on every corner. Just smalltown IN on a weekday. Imo he just got "lucky" and happened upon victims. If he had arranged to meet them, LE would have traced the details by now, imo.

 

[eyeofneedle]

Crossing the creek thinking water will kill your scent doesn't happen. A good dog works off dead skin cells. I owned a SAR dog and they are amazing at doing their job.......and they love going to work to do their job.

 

[pepper 34]

JMO...

He may have been walking the trails that day searching for a victim. They may have passed him on the trails on their way to the bridge, which IIRC, was their intended destination. While passing, he made a comment or given them a look, or just plain made them uncomfortable just by his presence. They thought nothing of it and continued to the bridge.

He stayed out of their line of vision for a while. Maybe he had already stashed a backpack on RL's land, either where he girls were found...
JMO.

(snipped by me)

That is how I see it, too, Meagan + Johnny. I just see him skulking around waiting for the NE bridge area to completely empty out of people and that's when he sets out across the bridge. (There are places I can see where he could hide to the left of the NE bridge area... off the main path and down the hill a bit towards the creek. Looks quite steep and most people probably wouldn't go down that way. This area would give a good view of the bridge, too.) I agree he brought a bag of clothes or whatever and I think he left it where the eventual murder took place early that morning. That's why he appears to be cold in the photos... he was cold... he'd been out there all day just waiting for the right situation to present itself. This was all planned out. He knows the area like that back of his hand but he doesn't live in Delphi. He knows some people there but outside Delphi proper. He's spent a lot of time there (fishing?)
Speculation and JMO.

 

[pepper 34]

Crossing the creek thinking water will kill your scent doesn't happen. A good dog works off dead skin cells. I owned a SAR dog and they are amazing at doing their job.......and they love going to work to do their job.

And, even if dogs could not do that... I would also think that, if the dogs stopped at the creek, you would want to take them across and they could pick up the scent over on the other bank. So "losing the scent at the creek" makes no sense to me either way.

 

[DeDee]

Okay, so at least on the 15th they had some kind of dog out there. It could be an evidence dog trained for a specific purpose rather than a search dog. I have done some quick looking around but I haven't found anything that says how long a human scent is viable for a dog to track it. I have found that the dogs are trained to follow the scent to the destination rather than backwards so such a search would have to have started where they were dropped off or at the south end of the bridge - if one was done. So my question is would the scent still be viable 21 1/2 hours (at the earliest) after the girls were last known to be alive (evidenced by the BG capture on the video frames and by the 2:30pm reference on the FBI billboards)? I know a lot depends on the temperature, wind, and humidity but I haven't come across any sources that put that together in terms of numbers so it could be compared to the approximate weather conditions at roughly 2:30-3:00pm on the 13th.

After reading a bit, my response would be yes, 21 1/2 + hours would not affect the trained dogs ability to detect scent. Scents do not disappear after a rain; however, wind can disperse scents.

Not all SAR dogs perform the same type of search. Some dogs are tracking (or trailing) dogs, and others are air-scent (or area-search) dogs. The types overlap, but the distinction between the two guides are the training process and how the dog participates in missions. Tracking dogs work with their nose to the ground. They follow a trail of human scent -- typically heavy skin particles that fall quickly to the ground or onto bushes -- through any type of terrain. These dogs are not searching, they're following: Tracking dogs need a "last seen" starting point, an article with the person's scent on it to work from and an uncontaminated trail.

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/animal-facts/sar-dog2.htm


The ideal working scent conditions for a trailing dog are cool, moist days with no wind. Scent will pool, cling, and survive in shady areas and areas with lush vegetation. The moisture provided by lush green grass, the shade of a front porch, or the damp surface of a gutter are all examples of places where residual scent could be present several days after the source of the scent has passed through an area. Scent survives longer in the cooler conditions found in the evening or early morning hours because lower temperatures will tend to bring the scent back down to ground level.

Wind can disperse scent great distances, minimizing a scent trail and making trailing difficult.

Hot and dry conditions have a negative impact on scent survival. In these conditions, scent is more easily dispersed and destroyed. Direct sunlight will dry out and quickly destroy scent vapors.

Scent needs moisture to survive ....

....a trained trailing dog is potentially capable of following a scent trail that is up to three (possibly even four) weeks old....

http://www.missingpetpartnership.org/lost-pet-help/find-a-pet-detective/how-long-can-scent-survive/


The concentration of scent available to the dog is exceedingly small. The value obtained for "average" conditions (10-12 mg/ml) represents only one millionth of a microgram of odorous material in a liter of air, a microgram being a millionth of a gram. By weight, since a liter of air weighs somewhat over one gram, this means that the air 100 yards down wind contains one ten thousandth of a millionth of one percent of the odorous material.

It is only necessary to make the obvious postulate that some things which have little or no odor to a human must be quite odorous to a dog.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol5no2/html/v05i2a04p_0001.htm

The first and second link contain data on lengths of time scents last. There are certain variables to consider so it is best to read the articles to gain an idea on how long human scents last.

 

[Ktsleuth]

IF he is the perp who had already abducted/murdered the Iowa cousins (and I do think he is!), then he had experience in going off with two girls in his car (work Van). His "military precision" started from this point of getting them in the car; he had only to refine his tactics a little bit (taking them back near the first CS he thought would have been searched already). IMO

this theory seems to match with the fact that there is very little to no perp DNA at the CS..if that is indeed the case (if one is to believe the t.v. interview with the LEO is not withholding more actual DNA evidence for the purpose of protecting the case for court later on). It doesn't make sense to me that two teenagers could be murdered in the wild open spaces where their bodies were found....where there are homes and public lands/parks...and the possibility of sounds carrying...and of them being able to escape all around...just too risky. I think the crimes happened elsewhere. There seems to be so little on-site evidence, which leads me to believe this perp knew what he was doing. I hike all the time, and this type of crime, with two healthy and youthful victims, would be very difficult IMO to pull off so "cleanly" and undetected...without premeditation. I think these young ladies were stalked specifically (someone close to the families) or the area was cased considerably by an experienced predator.

Considering the bodies were found later the next day (anyone know what time?)...they could have been placed there back after the crime....to appear that the crime happened closer. Could he have used a little boat to row them back up the creek to drop off the bodies later that night? Just thinking out loud here obviously....wish we had more information and facts to look for patterns. Just finished watching Series One of "The Killing Fields" on A&E...and the theory posed that there are multiple (hundreds!!! possibly) of serial killers operating in the US at one time, really bothered me). Our job as citizen sleuths is vital to helping the understaffed and overwhelmed everywhere. IMO , of course.