IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #72

[Shiressleuth]

https://www.wthr.com/article/state-...o-interview-person-of-interest-in-delphi-case

"He was pretty much living under the overpass, sleeping in my son's car. He never really had a place stay," Bortner said.

TY Daey34.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Some logical inferences based on what’s been reported:

Had the hospital restricted DN from accompanying KN to the doctor’s office, she’d probably remember that fact. From what she has said, he apparently showed interest in being a dad. So, it’s entirely plausible that he was with her for her appointment.

The Bortners let DN sleep in the car (on cold nights?), probably on their own property. There is no indication that he was allowed to drive it (if the car was even driveable). If he had been driving it, he could’ve driven himself to his LE check-ins. But he needed KN to drive him. (Interestingly, the Bortners befriended DN but never let him sleep in the house. Doubt they’d let him take off with their car.)

Public indecency is not classified as sexual assault unless the subject engages in physical contact with a victim.

They were legally separated because he had assaulted her and broken her nose in the presence of a child. Then I don't know what happened, a restraining order and jail should have been next, then they both missed a court date for reasons unknown so it's difficult to know why. KN and her children are lucky to be alive IMO. Daey34 posted the link about the car - I took it to mean he was sleeping in the car under a bridge. This was February so I guess they wanted him to leave but didn't want him to freeze to death. I hope LE have impounded that car.
AJMO

 

[Shiressleuth]

My apologies for strongly disagreeing about the twist in the case.

LEO could have said, "Remember, we said there was a twist, well, we have this video LG took and we've managed to grab a couple of images that we wish to share today in hopes it may prompt a memory of this guy seen at MHB." Or, "Remember the twist in the case, we have managed to obtain an audio of the BG where he is saying three words: Down the Hill". Listen carefully.

The twist, imho, has never been revealed. It won't be revealed unless there is a trial. I am haunted by a comment that "the murders are things nightmares are made of".

The LEOs gathered for the initial presser were shaken to the core. One struggled to maintain composure when he spoke. Absolutely, it is dreadful, horrific and tragic to discover two, young, female children dead in the woods. These are experienced Officers who are trained to expect horrendous encounters with unspeakable manners of deaths.

So, politely, no. The video and audio are not the twist in A&Ls heinous, unfathomable sight witnessed at their crime scene. <modsnip>

The twist.

This is stated in the Sheriff Tobe interview with M.Stroup where he mentions the case has a twist to it that he has never seen before in his 30 years of law enforcement.

(See post 90 in the media thread for the interview and transcript - last but one question but the whole 10 minute interview is interesting. )

What could that be?

 

[Boxer]

If the bullets that killed TW matched the gun that was in DN's car, would that be enough to arrest him? I would think the gun has DN's fingerprints on it (as opposed to his wife's prints). I'm surprised there hasn't been movement on the CO murder case.

Maybe LE is taking their time because he's in custody for other charges so they don't need to rush to get him off the streets. But, I guess I was expecting the bullets to match and then murder charge to quickly follow.....but....nothing.

Maybe the bullets don't match?

jmo

They made some big improvements to ballistics evidence within the last 20 years.
Not arresting him or KN must mean they dont have a match.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/aug/22/local/me-2513

 

[Shiressleuth]

They made some big improvements to ballistics evidence within the last 20 years.
Not arresting him or KN must mean they dont have a match.

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/aug/22/local/me-2513

Not necessarily. They could be working on placing him at the scene, awaiting DNA evidence, etc. Did they seize the vehicle? They would have to go over that. His clothes too I would imagine would be taken.
Also makes me wonder, as I said earlier, if ISP have seized the Bortner's car that DN was kipping in? EL Paso wouldn't be interested in a car DN slept in during February but CaCo sure should be. What a complicated investigation.

 

[minazoe]

there could have been more than one gun, and he ditched the murder weapon. I mean an idiot would know to ditch it.

for all we know these two had his and hers side arms.

does KN strike you as an idiot? She strikes me as the saavvy type, maybe even the brains.

so she let him control her. For someone to control you, you have to submit.

KN knows DN is a violent, unfixable mess..yet she goes back again and again expecting a different result, isn't this the definition of insanity? So in my mind there is something deeply troublesome here because she willingly took her children to CO to live in a car with this man. The fact that she dragged those children along after all their father has done gives me pause. It tells me she lacks empathy and is not the mother she claims to be.

And where was the other child?

you know, not all women in these abusive relationships are victims, some of them are violent and disturbed to begin with and choose this lifestyle, not caring what others think.

In my mind, these two had burned all their bridges and had run out of fools, so they high tailed it out of Indiana.

It would not shock me if she knows everything.

MOO

 

[Shiressleuth]

there could have been more than one gun, and he ditched the murder weapon. I mean an idiot would know to ditch it.

for all we know these two had his and hers side arms.

does KN strike you as an idiot? She strikes me as the saavvy type, maybe even the brains.

so she let him control her. For someone to control you, you have to submit.

KN knows DN is a violent, unfixable mess..yet she goes back again and again expecting a different result, isn't this the definition of insanity? So in my mind there is something deeply troublesome here because she willingly took her children to CO to live in a car with this man. The fact that she dragged those children along after all their father has done gives me pause. It tells me she lacks empathy and is not the mother she claims to be.

And where was the other child?

you know, not all women in these abusive relationships are victims, some of them are violent and disturbed to begin with and choose this lifestyle, not caring what others think.

In my mind, these two had burned all their bridges and had run out of fools, so they high tailed it out of Indiana.

It would not shock me if she knows everything.

MOO

Shades of Badlands. You may well be right about two weapons? Do we know where and when she bought the one that she had? Would there be records in her name? Don't you need a fixed address at least to purchase a gun? What if he ditched the weapon after using it on TW but it matches Delphi too?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Shades of Badlands. You may well be right about two weapons? Do we know where and when she bought the one that she had? Would there be records in her name? Don't you need a fixed address at least to purchase a gun? What if he ditched the weapon after using it on TW but it matches Delphi too?

How do we know the gun they had was purchased from a dealer & not a private owner or even stolen? MOO


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[Shiressleuth]

How do we know the gun they had was purchased from a dealer & not a private owner or even stolen? MOO


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I have a vague memory it was on the thread because the form filling was discussed previously. I am interested when it was purchased. KN states it was purchased to protect them because of the theft of their tent. That would mean they did not have that particular weapon with them in Indiana.

 

[Voodoo71]

Deciphering "the twist" has made my mind go in so many inconceivable directions. Many are too scary to share, but one, maybe the klller was a female. One last thought. Does anyone think it is possible that they might have connected DN to Indiana, after running his record and the item he was trying to pawn directly correlated or belonged to the girls?

 

[Daey34]

I would doubt that only because they were really struggling financially. If they had anything of value, it would have been sold months ago. I doubt they'd hang onto any items once they arrived in Denver. Plus they made their way around at least 4 counties in Colorado that we know of. Why not pawn the item when they were begging for money in May on social media?

Deciphering "the twist" has made my mind go in so many inconceivable directions. Many are too scary to share, but one, maybe the klller was a female. One last thought. Does anyone think it is possible that they might have connected DN to Indiana, after running his record and the item he was trying to pawn directly correlated or belonged to the girls?

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I have a vague memory it was on the thread because the form filling was discussed previously. I am interested when it was purchased. KN states it was purchased to protect them because of the theft of their tent. That would mean they did not have that particular weapon with them in Indiana.

I missed it. And I agree, they may not have had it when they were still in IN.


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[Deleted member 102539]

Curious to know why you think the first FB post was directed at DN. I think there's a good chance the second one (wanting to talk to someone, presumably Daniel) was passively directed to DN but not seeing a correlation between the first one and him. In this age of oversharing, the pregnant women in my newsfeed post similar updates every day. They post about every doctor's visit, how much weight they've lost, how much they've gained, how many times they threw up that day, how much the baby weighs, which way the baby's facing, etc. It's become so excessive, this sharing of information on something so personal, that my BFF has dubbed it "Womb Watch". The posts are not directed at the men; indeed, they're most often directed at female friends in order to elicit comments of encouragement, positivity, and even envy.

It's only a guess by me that she might have posted to give him the last information about their unborn. If they were separated and not separated all the time - maybe she sometimes communicated with him via Facebook when he hadn't been present at the right time but instead was fidgeting through the woods/parks/bridges near and far to do what a right "decent dad" does .

 

[Shiressleuth]

I would doubt that only because they were really struggling financially. If they had anything of value, it would have been sold months ago. I doubt they'd hang onto any items once they arrived in Denver. Plus they made their way around at least 4 counties in Colorado that we know of. Why not pawn the item when they were begging for money in May on social media?

You know they were in a pawn shop when the vehicle was seen right? Cops waited for them to return to the vehicle before arresting them apparently. They may even have waited till they drove off to then pull them over. MOO.

 

[Daey34]

I know that. But I also know there was already a BoLo issued for that car due to the menacing incidents. Not saying you're wrong. But I'd think it's unlikely. They had 4 months of traveling in that car in Colorado. They could have pawned anything of value way before September. Why hold onto it when you're struggling to feed your family? I just think that's a complicated explanation for two people struggling with poverty who even had a car window busted out and were sleeping in a tent. I just don't think they'd be capable of holding onto anything that long.

You know they were in a pawn shop when the vehicle was seen right? Cops waited for them to return to the vehicle before arresting them apparently. They may even have waited till they drove off to then pull them over. MOO.

 

[Lore Listener]

Lore Listener, :goodpost:Thank you for such an honest and eye opening post. I have been wanting to post about DN but my post would in no way be as tactful as yours, plus mine would be hard to read with all the **** **** **** b/c of censorship.

BTW...

:welcome:


Please keep posting!


:happydance: :happydance:
​

Thank you so much, U2Forever! And yes, I also had to make a “special effort” to keep my language Websleuths-appropriate when it comes to this guy!

 

[JazzTune]

http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/true-crime-tuesday-murdered-bridge

What I'm going to mention now is not related to DN, or the current discussion about him.

It was something Abby's mom said on the recent Dr. Oz show, linked above, that I had never heard before.

Dr. Oz had asked her what it's like as a mom to see the photos of her daughter, and also hearing the audio on Libby's phone. How she processed all of it.

I've listened repeatedly to her answer. It was a bit rambling which is understandable, but I will try to quote it:

"When we sat there as the girls were first missing, and we had gotten the picture off ICloud, as far as that picture, that last picture on the bridge, the first thing I said to Becky is, she is so grounded! I cannot believe they crossed that bridge! I'm terrified of heights to begin with. And just for me it was just oh! Because at that point it was - they're in big trouble! They're in big trouble..."

The reason I bring this up is because so many people wondered how parents could be comfortable with allowing their children to cross that bridge.

The assumption being, that since the girls went there frequently, crossing that bridge would not have been a big deal to them or their families.

Listening to Anna's words though tells me a different story. The girls did not have approval to cross the bridge.

Probably a moot point now, but this brings up questions for me. Dr. Oz says they were dropped off at the entrance to the north end. The photo was on the south end of the bridge.

Did they routinely walk across that bridge without their parents' awareness?

Is it possible they did not walk across it? Could they have found a dry path underneath to the other side?

This is all conjecture. Nothing to support it. Just a thought that's been bothering me though. Probably means nothing anyway.

It just seems every aspect of this case eats at me. These girls are always in my thoughts. In the middle of a project, they come to mind unbidden. I stop and pause. Gather my thoughts...

Always pondering, why did this horrible tragedy happen?!

Justice must come for these girls!


JMO

ETA: For some reason, although I linked the video I was watching of the girls' families, it links instead to the main link of a discussion of food. Underneath, it shows the correct videos of the families which can be easily accessed.

 

[tlcya]

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[tlcya]

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